Another informed and rational response from a local Christian (the TD's Mike Goens) about the former PA prayers at Brooks HS. I find that there are more and more of these rational responses from allies as atheists come out, make a rational case for our causes and explain the issues to an uninformed and reactionary theistic majority. Props to Mike Goens and the other local Christians who have been supportive of atheists requiring that our local schools and government not continue to break the law.
Shall we pray?
That’s certainly an invitation expressed frequently in the past few weeks. It started in October when a Lauderdale County resident objected to a prayer spoken over the public address system during a Brooks High School football game. He sought support from the Freedom from Religion Foundation to fight the school’s decision to have prayer before the game.
Emotions have surfaced since, some unpleasant. They include disgust, frustration, anger, helplessness and hatred. The people who have voiced those emotions have not been all Brooks High School football fans or Lauderdale County residents. The issue has touched the nerve of Christians areawide.
There are people living in our area who feel their rights are violated when they hear a prayer at a government functions, whether it’s a football game, government meeting or in some other public venue where the public’s money is involved. Most are unwilling to object publicly, knowing they will be subjected to ridicule.
I used to harbor some of those emotions. I remember wondering how can one person overrule the wishes of a clear majority of the people. I found myself agreeing when someone said “no one is forcing that guy to pray.”
It’s a way of thinking that was in my late-teen, early-adult past, and it’s not something I’m proud of, frankly.
Don’t misunderstand. I’m a Christian and certainly believe in the power of prayer and the need to exercise Christian beliefs in dealing with our fellow man. I also have experienced one of those miracles of life that I cannot explain.
I’ve heard from a lot of vocal people in recent days who said they are Christians, yet they used harsh language when it comes to this issue. Some voiced unkind words about Lauderdale County schools Superintendent Bill Valentine after he directed personnel to end school-sponsored prayers in schools. Valentine is a fine man who displays Christian values, but he has no choice but to follow the law. He doesn’t deserve the ridicule.
My thoughts about this issue started changing when I discovered politicians turned prayer in school into a political issue. Unfortunately, some still believe the rhetoric that prayer is not allowed in school. That is untrue.
There is nothing in the law that prohibits someone from praying in schools. A teacher, principal, lunchroom worker, student or any other person at school can pray whenever they choose. They can do it as a group or individually. The exception is that a school employee cannot lead the prayer at school or while representing the school.
Hundreds got together and prayed on the field before Brooks’ game Friday night. No one went to jail. They were exercising their right.
Respecting those who do not think as we do and learning to get along with each other is pretty Christian-like in my view.
http://timesdaily.com/stories/Shall-we-pray,184094
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breaking what law adot?
would you please quote that law you keep referring to?
Emotions have surfaced since, some unpleasant. They include disgust, frustration, anger, helplessness and hatred.
I’ve heard from a lot of vocal people in recent days who said they are Christians, yet they used harsh language when it comes to this issue. Some voiced unkind words about Lauderdale County schools Superintendent Bill Valentine
Respecting those who do not think as we do and learning to get along with each other is pretty Christian-like in my view.
__________________________
Those Christians let their mask slip.
I've thought of putting a sign in my yard that says, "If you're here to tell me about God, you're Trespassing".
. Valentine is a fine man who displays Christian values, but he has no choice but to follow the law. He doesn’t deserve the ridicule.
Mike Goens
Hi Robust,
How do you know Mike Goens is a Christian? As a matter of fact, how do you know that Bill Gray, O No, and many others on the Religion Forum are Christians? Because we say so? Sorry, that bar is way too low.
A Christian is one who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, who honors and treasures both the Living Word of God, Jesus Christ, and the Written Word of God, the Bible. A Christian is one who believes, lives, and when appropriate, will share the Word of God with others.
So, how well do you know Mike Goens? Do you know him well enough to attest to his Christian faith? Or, are you just excited because something he wrote appears to support your atheist religion?
Just a thought.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
Don’t misunderstand. I’m a Christian and certainly believe in the power of prayer and the need to exercise Christian beliefs in dealing with our fellow man.
_________________________________
AR, I mean no dis-respect but have you not mentioned before that you were an Atheist?
Are Atheists any different than humanists & if they are, how are they different?
Hi Chick,
Over the last several years, he has claimed to be both -- but, at different times. He began as an atheist. Then, became a secular humanist. Then, he switched back to being a atheist again. I suppose it all depends upon which shoes he is wearing that day.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
AR has stated he's not anyone else on this forum, Bill. I don't know with 100% certainty is he is or isn't. I have opinions just as you do. Can you prove AR is someone else? Lexum seems to think he is not someone else, but I don't know where he gets his info.
Hi Firenze,
No, I cannot say for certain. However, from his statements, his phrasing, his words, and his preaching -- my gut tells me that old Robust SWAM around in the TD Forums for a number of years under different names.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
Like YOU bill? Under all your "atta boy" names??
Hi Robust,
How do you know Mike Goens is a Christian? As a matter of fact, how do you know that Bill Gray, O No, and many others on the Religion Forum are Christians? Because we say so? Sorry, that bar is way too low.
A Christian is one who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, who honors and treasures both the Living Word of God, Jesus Christ, and the Written Word of God, the Bible. A Christian is one who believes, lives, and when appropriate, will share the Word of God with others.
So, how well do you know Mike Goens? Do you know him well enough to attest to his Christian faith? Or, are you just excited because something he wrote appears to support your atheist religion?
Just a thought.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
==
Please understand that I don't give a flip about your standards for others. Another person's word on the subject is good enough for me. I am in no position to judge and I'd trust his word on the matter over yours every day of the week.
Don’t misunderstand. I’m a Christian and certainly believe in the power of prayer and the need to exercise Christian beliefs in dealing with our fellow man.
_________________________________
AR, I mean no dis-respect but have you not mentioned before that you were an Atheist?
Are Atheists any different than humanists & if they are, how are they different?
==
No disrespect at all semi. You can ask me anything. But the Iron Bowl is starting! I'll get back to you
Real quick at halftime All humanists are atheists. Atheism only describes one's lack of belief in all gods. Humanism is sort of a non-theistic ethical model. I call it atheism +. I am both an atheist and humanist. I usually use atheist here for simplicity. A friend of mine says, "great, you're an atheist. Now what?" Humanism is the answer to that. Not all atheists are humanists.
"Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without theism and other supernatural beliefs, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity."
http://www.americanhumanist.or...e_Are/About_Humanism
A, I made an Oops! I read the article & realized you were quoting Mike Goens, that those weren't your words about being a Christian. I'm sorry.
Hi Chick,
it all depends upon which shoes he is wearing that day.
Bill__________________________________
I could say the same about you.
A, I made an Oops! I read the article & realized you were quoting Mike Goens, that those weren't your words about being a Christian. I'm sorry.
==
No sweat! It's a good question to answer anyway.
Adot, can you sign best up in the humanist group?
Adot, can you sign best up in the humanist group?
I'm not a "joiner" buff, I'll leave that up to you. It might give you the help you so desperately need.
Best, I’m toying with organizing your sweatshop here directly.
You wouldn’t object would you?
Tell you what buff, organize your own sweat shop and keep your beak out of our business. We don't want any crooks putting their two cents worth into our shop. You rob your own employees and customers, you won't rob ours,
it's obvious you don't employ skilled workers or they would quit you thefirst time you stole from them by cutting their checks
it's obvious you don't employ skilled workers or they would quit you thefirst time you stole from them by cutting their checks
You idiot. I've never cut their checks. YIUAHCSSOOAB
I see right now i'm gonna have to get somebody on here to call you out. you are gettin' entirely too rollicky.
MGUADTSIABGASCTOYCSPOSUAFOUTAGIN
good nite bestcussin.
Cussin? NWWYAUAHTWKPTTICY
As my friend Maggie once said: BR549
breaking what law adot?
would you please quote that law you keep referring to?
***
A little lesson for you, lexum. It is called CONSTITUTIONAL LAW.
Constitutional Law | ||
http://www.statelawyers.com/Pr...fm/PracticeTypeID:22
You and others similarly misinformed need to disabuse yourselves of the naive and simplistic notion that there is no law governing a particular activity unless such a law can be found within the covers of some compilation of statutes. You will find no law on the books of Lauderdale County or the State of Alabama expressly prohibiting government-controlled prayer in public schools. It is not necessary to have such a law in order for effectuate the First Amendment of the Constitution. Where actions contrary to the Constitution, as determined by controlling decisions of the U.S. Supreme Court or lower courts, are involved, there is no requirement that there must be some meticulously-detailed enabling legislation before the law can be enforced against such unlawful actions.
You may now discontinue your petty and wrongheaded demand for "that law."
Now, from another perspective, you and others need to be advised that there actually IS a federal law that sets forth permissive requirements for public schools with respect to "constitutionally protected prayer in public elementary schools and secondary schools." This is your government at work to help ensure that public school systems do not interfere with student-led and student initiated prayers in the public schools.
************************************
§ 7904. SCHOOL PRAYER
§ 6061. SCHOOL PRAYER
con10duh++er of God.
Where is the law? i should, ear in hand, drag you down the center isle of that C0C you attend and announce to the congregation "here it is, sin in the camp" ++er of God.
con10duh++er of God.
Where is the law? i should, ear in hand, drag you down the center isle of that C0C you attend and announce to the congregation "here it is, sin in the camp" ++er of God.
****
As expected from the shallow likes of you--not so much as a nanogram of substance in your irrelevant reply. I suppose that I should chalk that up to your limited skills of comprehension in matters legal or otherwise. Stated otherwise, your obviously are among those who berate because they can not debate.
I am truly shattered that my extensive effort to educate you has fallen upon deaf and ears and a moribund psyche. Hereafter I shall cast no more pearls before your sub-swinish persona!
I continue to be amazed and amused by persons from the ultraconservative dimension who argue that "government is best which governs least" and who allegedly want the government to stay out of their private lives, but who are nevertheless willing to permit government to tell their children when to pray, to whom to pray, in whose name to pray,and what to pray for or about. Consistency is indeed a rare jewel in these contentious times.
But you have no problem with the left that do that very thing too. Odd that all the people ******* blood over the bhs "incident" would be ultraconservatives.
I continue to be amazed and amused by persons from the ultraconservative dimension who argue that "government is best which governs least" and who allegedly want the government to stay out of their private lives, but who are nevertheless willing to permit government to tell their children when to pray, to whom to pray, in whose name to pray,and what to pray for or about. Consistency is indeed a rare jewel in these contentious times.
But you have no problem with the left that do that very thing too. Odd that all the people ******* blood over the bhs "incident" would be ultraconservatives.
*******
I have a problem with anyone who supports government-controlled public school prayer, but it puzzles me that you seem to believe that "the left...do that very thing too." Please explain what you mean by that. It is in no way evident from what you posted. Can you provide an example?
Example? Just what I posted. Surely you don't make the claim that all the people going nuts anytime they are "challenged", and posting all the horrible things that should happen to atheists are only the "conservatives".
Example? Just what I posted. Surely you don't make the claim that all the people going nuts anytime they are "challenged", and posting all the horrible things that should happen to atheists are only the "conservatives".
***
I give up. You are obviously in an apples-and-oranges state of paranoid confusion.
but who are nevertheless willing to permit government to tell their children when to pray, to whom to pray, in whose name to pray,and what to pray for or about.
Try to keep up. The people you describe are the very ones that go wild and talk about what should happen to atheists or anyone else that dares "challenge" what they consider, law be ****ed, their "rights". Got that so far? Now, my comment means that there is NO way you can claim that all those people are conservatives. PLENTY of them are dems.
but who are nevertheless willing to permit government to tell their children when to pray, to whom to pray, in whose name to pray,and what to pray for or about.
Try to keep up. The people you describe are the very ones that go wild and talk about what should happen to atheists or anyone else that dares "challenge" what they consider, law be ****ed, their "rights". Got that so far? Now, my comment means that there is NO way you can claim that all those people are conservatives. PLENTY of them are dems.
*****
But you and I are describing two different areas of conviction. I am describing those who militantly contend for restoration of government-directed school prayer and those who so contend ARE very predominantly ultraconservatives with respect to that issue and most other issues that are at play in current political debates, regardless of what party they might affiliate themselves with--Democratic, Republican, Libertarian or otherwise.
Your adversarial posture is toward those of any political persuasion who challenge your atheism and I readily agree that there are Dems and Repubs, liberals and conservatives of all kinds who fall in that class. I never commented on those that you describe above as "'going nuts anytime they are 'challenged', and posting all the horrible things that should happen to atheists...." because those folks are not the discrete class of subjects of my interest vis a vis the school prayer issue. Kindly allow me to choose the objects of my scorn and I will grant you the same prerogative, but do not expect me to expand the discussion to subsume your adversaries simply because their diverse membership includes some of the same folks I have disagreements with.
For the record, I hold that the right to believe that there is no god is as fully protected by the Constitution as is the right to believe in one God, a multiplicity of gods, or some abstract principle such as Tillich's "ground of all being" or some kind of post-structuralist "transcendental signifier."
con10duh++er of God.
Where is the law? i should, ear in hand, drag you down the center isle of that C0C you attend and announce to the congregation "here it is, sin in the camp" ++er of God.
****
As expected from the shallow likes of you--not so much as a nanogram of substance in your irrelevant reply. I suppose that I should chalk that up to your limited skills of comprehension in matters legal or otherwise. Stated otherwise, your obviously are among those who berate because they can not debate.
I am truly shattered that my extensive effort to educate you has fallen upon deaf and ears and a moribund psyche. Hereafter I shall cast no more pearls before your sub-swinish persona!
con10duh++er of God
where is the law?
the next time i sit directly behind you at a city council meeting i'm going to gouge you in the a*rse at the most inopportune time while you are standing there head bowed during prayer launching you to that podium to your embarrassment before the cameras, God and everybody shouting 'not yet God my house is not in order'.
That one, lexum, is just as swinish and just as irrelevant as your initial abysmal failure to offer anything of substance to the discussion. One as pitifully impotent in polemics as you are should decamp to somewhere like the Food Talk Forum, where there is little or no need to intelligently disagree with anyone on any issue of real significance.
here's hoping you will run for council member.