Skip to main content

October 7 is “Pulpit Freedom Sunday”, when the extremist Christian group Alliance Defending Freedom encourages pastors to break the law and defy basic American values.

Each year, they encourage religious leaders to disobey IRS regulation and campaign from the pulpit on behalf of individual candidates–in effect, telling their congregations how to vote. 539 participated last year, facing no repercussion stronger than a letter from the IRS telling them not to do it again.

This is a violation of IRS code, which prohibits political campaigning on behalf of or in opposition to any candidate. It’s one of the restrictions that comes with tax-exempt status as a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization.

These church leaders think they should be able to have their cake and eat it, too.

RawStory reports:

The pastors participating in the event plan to preach about the election, endorse a candidate, and send video of their sermon to the IRS.

“The purpose is to make sure that the pastor — and not the IRS — decides what is said from the pulpit,” Erik Stanley, senior legal counsel for the group, told FoxNews.com. “It is a head-on constitutional challenge.”

The Johnson amendment in Section 501c3 of the Internal Revenue Code prohibits tax-exempt charities and churches from intervening in political campaigns on behalf of or in opposition to any candidate. The IRS has been reluctant to revoke churches’ tax-exempt status for violating the more than 50-year-old IRS rule, but the agency has issued written warnings to dozens of churches.

“The IRS will send out notices from time to time and say you crossed the line,” Jim Garlow, a senior pastor of Skyline Wesleyan Church in San Diego, told FoxNews.com. “But when it’s time to go to court, they close the case.”

The goal of Pulpit Freedom Sunday is to force the IRS to take churches to court and have the Johnson Amendment declared unconstitutional.

Nobody, not the IRS or the government, has in any way restricted a pastor’s free speech. He or she can endorse any candidate desired . . . when speaking as a private citizen, not while in official capacity as a pastor.

Tax exemption is a privilege, not a right. If a pastor wishes to engage in political activity in an official capacity, all that is required is to give up tax exemption.

 

Continue reading here:

 

http://www.secularnewsdaily.co...UGIF0LSTP0U.facebook

Life is short, Forgive quickly, Kiss slowly, Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably, and never regret anything that made you SMILE!

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

I guess the black pastors jumped the gun a little.

 

Home  »  2012 presidential campaign  »  Black Pastors Tell Congregants To Stay Home On Election Day



<small class="metaStuff">Sep 16, 2012 6 Comments Infidel كافر</small>

Excerpted from NEWSMAX: Some black clergy see no good presidential choice between a Mormon candidate and one who supports gay marriage, so they are telling their flocks to stay home on Election Day. That’s a worrisome message for the nation’s first African-American president, who can’t afford to lose any voters from his base in a tight race.

The pastors say their congregants are asking how a true Christian could back same-sex marriage, as President Barack Obama did in May. As for Republican Mitt Romney, the first Mormon nominee from a major party, congregants are questioning the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its former ban on men of African descent in the priesthood.

In 2008, Obama won 95 percent of black voters and is likely to get an overwhelming majority again. But any loss of votes would sting.

I keep wondering how those people who voted for Obama in 2008 are answering the qustion "are you better off today than you were four years ago?"  I have to also wonder why a President who claims to have made so much progress isn't asking that question in his campaign.  Okay, I don't have to wonder, I know the answers.

 

That being said, Romney is so clueless, there is no possible way I could vote for the guy.   Religious bent is irrelevant to me. 

Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

I keep wondering how those people who voted for Obama in 2008 are answering the qustion "are you better off today than you were four years ago?"  I have to also wonder why a President who claims to have made so much progress isn't asking that question in his campaign.  Okay, I don't have to wonder, I know the answers.

 

That being said, Romney is so clueless, there is no possible way I could vote for the guy.   Religious bent is irrelevant to me. 

I keep saying I'm better off than 4 years ago because I am !  Why do so many on the right want to lie and say we are worse off, we are a helluva lot better off now than when Bush left office.

I digress, back to Jank's topic.

I am beginning to believe that churches should be taxed just like any business. For the most part, nowdays , they just can't seem to stay out of politics, whether it is about abortion rights, or drinking rights, or gambling rights.

They want to tell their sheeple how to vote, and are therefore , no longer churches.

 

I saw this article as well. the organizers are hoping for at least 1000 pastors to get in on this.

unfortunately for the pastors, this issue has already been tried in a court a few times now, each time the verdict was against the pastor/church. if this group had done a little research, they would have learned this and would know there has already been precedent in cases that will all but ensure the IRSs win - unless they are able to acquire a fundie conservative judge to hear the case. 

but that'll just result in appeal and eventually an overturned verdict.

Personally, i really hope they DO get 1000, or more, pastors to do this, because it could end with 1000 or more revocations of 'tax exempt' status for churches.

the idea of that tickles me. "Give god what is due god, but give caesar what is due caesar" - these people have been ignoring their scripture and denying caesar his due for far too long  

Where's the lie seeweed? HOW are you better off? How is it a lie when every freaking day we hear of someone else that lost their job, or a business that had to close? WHY would anyone lie about that? Why do democrats deny that is happening? Do you even talk to people, or are you one of those that thinks if someone isn't working it's just because they don't want to work? Yes, that bunch has always been around and the government will take care of them as they always have, but what happens to people that had a job, lost it, and want another?

Watch just a tiny bit of tv, and see how many times you hear-"in this economy I can't find a job, with the economy being so bad I need----".  Why all the articles about "what career to choose in this bad economy"?

How about stories about the unemployment rate not being even higher because some people haven't had the chance to enter the job market after college, or whatever, because there are NO JOBS for them? How about people that have dropped off the unemployment roll and are still unemployed? Of course they aren't counted as unemployed. Heard any stories about people agreeing to pay cuts to keep their job? (I know, I know, dems think an employer should never lay off or cut someone's pay until they themselves are financially ruined). How about people "up in years" saying they have never seen it this bad, and "I don't know what's going to happen to people, how are they going to support their families"?  How about "older" people that still have to work for a living but lose their jobs? What are their prospects?

We hear all this and more every day, but yet you say we're lying. Amazing. 

Last edited by Bestworking

Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

I keep wondering how those people who voted for Obama in 2008 are answering the qustion "are you better off today than you were four years ago?"

__________

Originally Posted by seeweed:

I keep saying I'm better off than 4 years ago because I am !  Why do so many on the right want to lie and say we are worse off, we are a helluva lot better off now than when Bush left office.

________

Crusty, I’m one of those people that voted for Obama & that was one of the dumbest mistakes I’ve ever made. (I’m human so I'm sure there will be others). I thought he was the lesser of two evils & I was wrong. I should have done as my husband did & not vote at all because there was nothing to vote for. Same thing with the choices we have now. I'm a Republican, but I look more at the capabilities of the man instead of the party.

_________

Seeweed, I really shouldn’t ask this because political discussions get violent so quickly, but I do respectfully want your opinion. What do you think of the debt the US is in & how did it get that way?      

I agree that it's probably locked in. Sad but true I'm afraid. Now as to the preachers endorsing a candidate I will say that in my church there has always been a "vote your conscience" type of sermon- especially pertaining to abortion. I suppose it is a way around the law, but I still feel that the catholic church makes no bones about endorsing the conservative candidate.
 
Originally Posted by semiannualchick:

Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

I keep wondering how those people who voted for Obama in 2008 are answering the qustion "are you better off today than you were four years ago?"

__________

Originally Posted by seeweed:

I keep saying I'm better off than 4 years ago because I am !  Why do so many on the right want to lie and say we are worse off, we are a helluva lot better off now than when Bush left office.

________

Crusty, I’m one of those people that voted for Obama & that was one of the dumbest mistakes I’ve ever made. (I’m human so I'm sure there will be others). I thought he was the lesser of two evils & I was wrong. I should have done as my husband did & not vote at all because there was nothing to vote for. Same thing with the choices we have now. I'm a Republican, but I look more at the capabilities of the man instead of the party.

_________

Seeweed, I really shouldn’t ask this because political discussions get violent so quickly, but I do respectfully want your opinion. What do you think of the debt the US is in & how did it get that way?      

=================================================================

 

Semi,

I would like to answer you in a somewhat more complicated  answer to your question, and then work to answer it directly - OK ?

 

First, I would like to take a minute and explain why I said I was better off now than 4 years ago.

I am retired, and have a stable income based upon a retirement annuity and Social Security.

I also work from time to time at a part time job, but for the last couple of years I have not been able to work because of tending to my mother in the last few months of her life. In addition , I have left from work a 401K that so far I have not touched, and some bank stocks left from my banking days.

Four years ago, my 401K was worth roughly half of what it started with. I don't even try to manage it, I put it in various stocks and bonds recommended by Fidelity and have just left it alone.

Now, four years later, that 401K is worth almost 50% more than it was at the start, in other words, y net worth is three times more than it was when Bush left office on this one investment.

I also have bank stocks , which during the go go Clinton years paid enough dividends to be my "fun money" - paid for my Harley, wife's new car , and other toys. By the end of the rein of ruin of Bush, those stocks had plunged in value, and paid no dividends at all.  As of last year, the dividends have started back, although relatively small as compared to before, and the price of the stock has slowly gone up, although not to it's former glory.

There are some other things that have happened that would have happened under the presidency of your cat, but that is beside the point.

Am I financially better off ? Well, not just yes, but hell yes.

We all know the stock market is predicated by profit and fear, so I credit Bush with the near devastation of my stock portfolio, and Obama with the recovery - some of that I will get into in the next topic.

Enough about me.

 

Now, as to "is the country better off now than 4 years ago" ?

Well, in the last months of the Bush admin, the economy was shedding about 800,000 loss of jobs per month. Two months, 160,000, 3 months 240,000 etc.

After the first month in office that started to change, to less and less job losses and finally turned into jobs created in early 2010.

I know you have seen it before , but here it is again :

NNow , please keep in mind this chart is ONLY job losses or gain in the private sector. One of the things that keeps our unemployment so high is what the Republicans have wanted forever - the layoffs of GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES, which has accelerated exponentially in the last few years because of the lack of tax income at the state level, and the cut to them from the fed government. They have laid off teachers, cops, and a host of other government employees.

Now, there has to be about 125000 jobs created each and every month just to keep up with demand from the next generation coming into the work force from HS and College, so frankly , although 60000 jobs created sounds pretty good, it is only half as many as needed to satisfy the increasing work pool.

 

Having said all that, we come (I know, finally) to try to place my take on an answer to your question.

Well, first lets get this out of the way. Obama is the smallest spending president since Ike.

Check it out :  http://www.forbes.com/sites/ri...ve-its-barack-obama/

 

Now, I grant that that is a Forbes from the left  writer, but you check his facts , just more that you will not hear on Fox "News".

 

Ok, so we have (had) an economy in freefall, hemorrhaging jobs and decimating the tax base, so tax revenue's fell to both fed and state.Solution , add to debt.

Then, to top that off, the effects of the unpaid for Bush tax cuts started to really affect the national budget, solution, add to debt.

Then Bush added billions to the national deficit by signing into law an un-funded entitlement to pay for script meds for Medicare users.  Why pay for it when you can add it to the debt ?

Then, the war in Afghanistan, again un paid for , add to debt.

Then an unnecessary war in Iraq, about a trillion dollars un-funded - add to debt.

Then, the TARP bank bailout in the last few days of the Bush admin - Billions of dollars - hell add it to the debt ! (although to be fair, the current admin has collected it all back with a profit)

Do you remember Everett Durkson (R-Il) ?  "A billion here, and a billion there, and pretty soon you are talking about real money"  he said in his gravely voice. Well, yea

So, what has Obama done to either add to the problem, or try to correct it:

 

Well, he did spend a lot to save the American auto industry. Remember, all 3 ask for it , even tho Ford did not need or take any money, Ford needed the parts industry to stay in business and without GM and Chrysler, they knew that industry would fold. We have gotten back a lot of that money, in fact all that was a direct loan, but we still are "stockholders" in GM and if it is handled correctly, that stock sould be eleminated as the market does it's thing, and slowly , so as not to crash the market with a huge "sell order" , and quietly, so as not to artificially drive up the stock price.

He increased the ammoount of time that people could collect unemployment insurance (notice the word INSURANCE in that ) and made some investments, both good and bad in other industries, even trying to kick start the solar power industry to get that business back stateside instead of conceding it to China.

All these things added to the debt as well, plus, we are still pizzing away millions a day in Afghanistan

which must be added to the debt.

Now, he has had some failures as well that has hindered the economy, and remember, anything that hinders the economy, by direct means, adds to the debt.

The Congressional Republicans , during Obama's inauguration, had a meeting and pledged to in block, vote against any initiative that Obama put forth, whether it was their own bill, a Democratic bill, or any thing. If Obama was for it , they vowed to be against it. So far, they have managed to stifle every single bill that Obama has introduced that would put people to work. EVERY SINGLE ONE !

No debate, no compromise, no getting to a better solution, just NO ! NO! NO!

Now, just how can any rational person blame Obama for the total economic situation ?

 

Think on this - You live in some place where water is scarce. There is a drought. (take for example the midwest this year).  Your house catches on fire. The fire department shows up ASAP, and there are two choices.

1> save the water (after all , we are in a drought) and watchit burn

2> use that precious water and put out the fire to save your precious house.

 

Which option would you choose ?

 

The same situation in an economic sense was occurring when Obama took office,, try to stop the (fire) economy from going over the cliff and throw money at it - after all , the government is the employer of last resort, or just let it go , save the debt, and if people starve, what the hell, they need to just go get a job flipping burgers.

 

Back to your question,

I don't like the debt,(I don't like any debt)  although right at this particular point in time, the interest rate is so damm low, it is not a problem - However, when the economy does recover, interest rates are bound to go up and THEN  it will be a problem, a big problem.

I hope I have answered already my view as to how we got there.

How are we to get out of this hole is the next logical thing -

 

Well, during the 90s we had a tax structure that seemed to work just fine, in fact , once it was instituted (with Al Gore having to cast the deciding vote in the Senate because all the R's said (you guessed it ) NO! ) the US economy just seemed to take off into the largest expansion ever.

So, I would say we should let the Bush Tax Cuts expire (hopefully Obama will have the nads to do just that - should have done it last year), and we need to bring the defense budget down to about where it was during the Clinton years.  It's BS to think he "gutted the military " as Fox would have us believe. Where do you think Bush got all those smart bombs he wasted in Iraq ? the bomb fairy ?

That stockpile was a result of Clinton's forsight that the nature of how to wage war is changing, and we need higher tech weapons and less other stuff.

Get the hell out of Astan, get Blackwater out of Iraq, and quit trying to be the world's police force.

 

Incorrectly attributed to John Dillinger the quote as to why he robs banks "because that's where the money is".

Well, we should look at the national budget "where the money is" , and the single largest (by far) thing is the defense budget. Larger than most of the rest of the world's military budget combined.

Start there, with cuts, expire the Bush tax cuts, and lets see what happens.

 

Well, Semi, that's my take, probably more than you ever wanted to know .

Hope you read it.

 

 

Seeweed I read it. You did an awesome job of explaining it. I just hope that others here take the time to not just read it but to check those facts for themselves. Its all there and they don't need to listen to Fox news or the right wing talking points, the truth/information is at their finger tips.

 

Now can we get back to the pastors politicking from the pulpit?

 

They will loose this battle and as someone else said I sure hope they keep it up. The more they try this kind of tactic the more it is brought out into the open and they will loose their tax exemptions. Which should have happened a long time ago.

Originally Posted by Jankinonya:

Seeweed I read it. You did an awesome job of explaining it. I just hope that others here take the time to not just read it but to check those facts for themselves. Its all there and they don't need to listen to Fox news or the right wing talking points, the truth/information is at their finger tips.

 

Now can we get back to the pastors politicking from the pulpit?

 

They will loose this battle and as someone else said I sure hope they keep it up. The more they try this kind of tactic the more it is brought out into the open and they will loose their tax exemptions. Which should have happened a long time ago.

sorry, didn't mean to sidetrack the thread.

I hope you are right,  they loose this battle, but my bet is that they will win and end up as they are doing now, politicking from the pulpit. I know too many people that are convienced that anything they hear from the pulpit cannot be wrong, and that a preacher is infallible. Not just around here either, remember why the guy in Philadelphia Ms, was not convicted of hanging a black man in the 60's ?  11 on the jury voted guilty, but one woman said she knew he was guilty but just couldn't bring herself to vote against a preacher.

That backasward mentality is still very much alive and well, especially in Ms, Al, Ga, Tn, and Ark.

 

 

No problem...Your post was good and actually gave me a chance to finally agree with someone on politics for a change. Seems lately every where I turn I am biting my tongue to keep from saying something ugly.

 

What I meant by loose was loose in the courts, I know that there will always be those that blindly follow some preacher man. Its human nature I guess.

I don't think race has anything to do with it. They are going to politic from the pulpit no matter what, so they should not get the added advantage of tax exemption. That goes for all races of pastors. There are just as many Caucasian pastors that will never stop either. The tax exemption just needs to be stripped from them. They haven't followed the laws in a very long time. 

Originally Posted by seaweed:

Well, Semi, that's my take, probably more than you ever wanted to know .

Hope you read it.

________

Originally Posted by Jankinonya:

Now can we get back to the pastors politicking from the pulpit?

________ 

Thank you, seaweed, & yes, I read all of it.  

 

Sorry Jank, I sidetracked your topic with my question to seaweed.

 

I also think churches should pay taxes. For all the years that I attended church, which candidate to vote for & why was always preached from the pulpit. The Pastors always made the comment that it was “their duty as a Christian” to encourage the "flock" to vote as “God would have them to vote’, then they would tell you which candidate to vote for. If you voted for the other one, you were considered to be “voting for Satan”.

The churches can’t stay out of politics, & for that they should have to pay taxes. I agree that it should have happened a long time ago.

 

I sincerely believe it has to do with race. I have a friend that's black. I have never referred to her before as being black. I don't see color when I look at her, I see a true friend with a good heart. The reason I refer to her color now is because she just recently told me that her Pastor preached that it's their duty to vote for Obama. He said their ancestors for hundreds of years were owned by white people & it was time to have "their turn" over the whites by continuing to keep a black President in office. She said this wasn't preached from the pulpit just in her church, but most all colored churches.

 

I think they all Politic from the Pulpit, one no more than the other.

 

 

 

It's amazing the things you "learn" in life. Growing up I went to work as soon as it was possible for me to work. The jobs I had then were never intended to be my life's profession, it was to get by until I could do something better. I worked right along side black people, did the same work they did, got paid the same, got "ordered around" the same, or more, etc. One place I worked we had "side jobs" that changed from night to night, but the white girls/boys always ended up cleaning the bathrooms because the black kids refused to "be toilet cleaners."  Our managers thought nothing of "asking" us to do it. One night I jokingly told our manager, you do know I'm not actually white don't you? I'm native american. He said "oh god, don't YOU start"! 

 

Now I find out that I'm the one that's had all the "breaks in life." Funny how I didn't realize that while I cleaned the ladies bathroom even though it should have been someone else doing it. Funny how that never occurred to me while I was paying for my own education. Funny how it never dawned on me how lucky I had it while I got up at 4:30 a.m.every morning to get ready and drive 20 miles to work and be there by 6:00 a.m. so I could get off at 3:00 p.m. and make it to my other job and work until 10:00 that night. Later, my husband and I never knew we had it so good when we put everything we owned and had worked for, on the line to start a business. No family money, no bank loans, no loans of any kind, just starting out small, as much as was possible with our resources. No calling in sick, suck it up and get there. No paid holidays, you do the paying and lose the income for those days everything shuts down. You have a bad week or month? Who cares, you still write the paychecks and you keep paying the bills, at home and at the business. Paid vacation? Ha! 

 

Now after all that "having it so good" we find out we hate the poor, and everything we've worked for we didn't do it, someone else did it, and other people who were not as "fortunate/lucky" as we were deserves our money. Funny how that someone else was never around to pay those bills for us, work those 7 days a week, 16 hour days, raise our kids. Ask my kids what daycare they went to, they'll tell you-the shop was their daycare after school and during the summer. Now we get to watch people losing their jobs, their businesses, homes, and struggle to keep it from happening to us. But what the heck, we've had it so good all this time, so who cares. Right?

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Now after all that "having it so good" we find out we hate the poor, and everything we've worked for we didn't do it, someone else did it, and other people who were not as "fortunate/lucky" as we were deserves our money

Really, now?

 

I'm no democrat by any stretch of imagination, and yes that speech was horribly worded, but it's pretty obvious from the context what was meant.

 

Are all the Republicans willfully misinterpreting that line?  Or instead, are they actually claiming that the government shouldn't be building bridges and roads, but leaving that responsibility to the small businesses who are already complaining that they can't afford to give their employees decent wages?

Are all the Republicans willfully misinterpreting that line?  Or instead, are they actually claiming that the government shouldn't be building bridges and roads, but leaving that responsibility to the small businesses who are already complaining that they can't afford to give their employees decent wages?


==============

Willfully misinterpreting a line that was spoken in plain english, and goes right along with the idea of "redistributing the wealth"?  What's a "decent" wage? What is a job worth?  And if there were no businesses/jobs, which btw are dropping off every day, there wouldn't be a lot of need for roads, bridges, and "built up" industrial areas. Those aren't given to anyone, we all pay dearly for them. That statement is basically like someone claiming you wouldn't have your house if they hadn't built it and SOLD it to you, so they're entitled to part ownership of the house. So not only did we bear the cost of starting our business, we also had roads, all sorts of licenses, bridges, whatever, SOLD to us, and we still pay for their upkeep. No one gave us those things either. BTW, build a new business and get a turning lane (which you have to do) for it put in. Guess who pays for that to the tune of 50 grand, or by now probably twice that? Think taxpayers pay for it? Think again.

Yes - the republicans are willfully misinterpreting that line - they are applying their logic to everyone else now. "it means what we say it means, regardless of what was acctually said"

otherwise, they would have no arguments at all. the only way they can even pretend to carry on this campaign is to define all statments as meaning things that come out in their favor.

did Obama say " you didn't build that"?
yes.
did obama mean the businesses?
no.
did he mean the national infrastructure that allowed that person to be able to open and run his own business?
of course he did, but understand what he said, and pretending to have caught him out doesn't make them feel better. willfully misunderstanding allows them to think " oh.. great.. i'm backign the right guy!"

otherwise they'd be forced into the self-realization that mitt is greedy scum who doesn't care if they live or die. 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

It's amazing the things you "learn" in life. Growing up I went to work as soon as it was possible for me to work. The jobs I had then were never intended to be my life's profession, it was to get by until I could do something better. I worked right along side black people, did the same work they did, got paid the same, got "ordered around" the same, or more, etc. One place I worked we had "side jobs" that changed from night to night, but the white girls/boys always ended up cleaning the bathrooms because the black kids refused to "be toilet cleaners."  Our managers thought nothing of "asking" us to do it. One night I jokingly told our manager, you do know I'm not actually white don't you? I'm native american. He said "oh god, don't YOU start"! 

 

Now I find out that I'm the one that's had all the "breaks in life." Funny how I didn't realize that while I cleaned the ladies bathroom even though it should have been someone else doing it. Funny how that never occurred to me while I was paying for my own education. Funny how it never dawned on me how lucky I had it while I got up at 4:30 a.m.every morning to get ready and drive 20 miles to work and be there by 6:00 a.m. so I could get off at 3:00 p.m. and make it to my other job and work until 10:00 that night. Later, my husband and I never knew we had it so good when we put everything we owned and had worked for, on the line to start a business. No family money, no bank loans, no loans of any kind, just starting out small, as much as was possible with our resources. No calling in sick, suck it up and get there. No paid holidays, you do the paying and lose the income for those days everything shuts down. You have a bad week or month? Who cares, you still write the paychecks and you keep paying the bills, at home and at the business. Paid vacation? Ha! 

 

Now after all that "having it so good" we find out we hate the poor, and everything we've worked for we didn't do it, someone else did it, and other people who were not as "fortunate/lucky" as we were deserves our money. Funny how that someone else was never around to pay those bills for us, work those 7 days a week, 16 hour days, raise our kids. Ask my kids what daycare they went to, they'll tell you-the shop was their daycare after school and during the summer. Now we get to watch people losing their jobs, their businesses, homes, and struggle to keep it from happening to us. But what the heck, we've had it so good all this time, so who cares. Right?

____________________

Best, this is the story of most every small business person.  Most employees don't understand this, which is sad.

Add Reply


Untitled Document
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×