Questions for Christians

Can you be more specific about what you consider Contradictions to be? Personally I haven't found any but I'd be glad to attempt to handle any you present and give my opinion.

Regarding the many other remarks or references to Old Testament Scriptures (without giving the verse references for some) Many of the laws if not all were given to specific people of which you nor I are unless you are Jewish and one of the linage of the twelve tribes of Israel.

As with most of Scripture the context of the text and the purpose and who it is written to is usually needed to be able to adequately answer any question regarding that specific scripture.

How come does it seem your questions are ask more from a position of a skeptic or seeking to entrap a Christian rather than asking a question out of genuine curiosity, forgive me if I mistake the tone of the post.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckbutt:
Here are a few problems of a Biblical nature:

If you believe the Bible is the word of God, especially the New Testament, then how do you explain the contradictions? What do you do in the instance of a contradiction?

Bible - Quran - BOM dissected here.

Why won't God Heal Amputees?

And this went largely unanswered and was declared a trap by some xians here.

10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer.

Posted this on the other "Questions for Christians" thread in News & whaddaya know? It fits here nicely as well.

Actually, a better question is...What exactly makes you think that you are qualified to run the universe? What makes you uniquely qualified to see things more clearly than the Creator of the universe? Could it possibly be that a being able to speak the world into existence might know something you don't know? Perhaps the ME generation needs to grasp the concept that sometimes it's not all about you.

God is who HE says he is, whether you like it or not. JMHO

You have read the book "A Letter to a Christian Nation" written by a non-believer and its shows in his book his ignorance. Luckily for us we are no longer under the Law only under the blood of Christ. The blood covers our sins and the Holy Spirit is our helper. Without the Holy Spirit a person truly cannot understand the things of God or how He operates. I personally feel sorry for those people who never allow God into their lives. They are missing one of the greatest experiences of all time.

ngt,

Have YOU read "Letter to a Christian Nation"?

DF

quote:

Originally posted by gbrk:
Can you be more specific about what you consider Contradictions to be? Personally I haven't found any but I'd be glad to attempt to handle any you present and give my opinion.

A friend of mine did a speech on Gospel Contradictions. The video is about 1 hour 20 minutes, but it should give you some detailed contradictions. Also, here is the handout, so you can follow along.

I don't really expect you to respond to all of these, but be my guest if you wish to.

Best,

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
Posted this on the other "Questions for Christians" thread in News & whaddaya know? It fits here nicely as well.

Actually, a better question is...What exactly makes you think that you are qualified to run the universe? What makes you uniquely qualified to see things more clearly than the Creator of the universe? Could it possibly be that a being able to speak the world into existence might know something you don't know? Perhaps the ME generation needs to grasp the concept that sometimes it's not all about you.

You need to create a new thread for this called "Questions for Satanists."

quote:

Originally posted by gbrk:
As with any human remember that which is posted is just an opinion of the one writing the post and usually no two opinions are the same. In respect to Spiritual matters it is possible for two to disagree when people have different interpretations therefore it is important when two or more disagree then do so respectfully and if common ground cannot be found then agree to disagree.

You are coming from a point of view that all ideas are merely opinions. There have to be some theological facts.

The only reason that theological points could be only opinions is that religion is simply made up.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckbutt:
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstural uncleanliness. (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

Paraphrasing, Penn Jillette in the show Bull$h!t on the Bible: Try asking the judge in traffic court if she's on the rag.

gbrk: I am disposed to be skeptical in the face of some passages in the Bible, and some peoples' literal acceptance of its content. Frankly, the acceptance of literal interpretations of scripture require more credulousness than I have.

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
Posted this on the other "Questions for Christians" thread in News & whaddaya know? It fits here nicely as well.

Actually, a better question is...What exactly makes you think that you are qualified to run the universe? What makes you uniquely qualified to see things more clearly than the Creator of the universe? Could it possibly be that a being able to speak the world into existence might know something you don't know? Perhaps the ME generation needs to grasp the concept that sometimes it's not all about you.

God is who HE says he is, whether you like it or not. JMHO

Joy, I make no representations about my qualifications to run the universe. I'll leave it to natural laws such as evolution and entropy.

What is it with atheists trying to push their religion of non-religion down everyone's throats?

Great you guys don't believe in God. That's apparently not enough for you since you want to turn the rest of the world into atheists too so we can be cool and join your little ghay club.

Let me ask you a question. The law of conservation of mass states that matter can not be created or destroyed, only rearranged. How did the universe come to be in the first place?

quote:

Posted 17 July 2008 08:42 AM Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by gbrk:
As with any human remember that which is posted is just an opinion of the one writing the post and usually no two opinions are the same. In respect to Spiritual matters it is possible for two to disagree when people have different interpretations therefore it is important when two or more disagree then do so respectfully and if common ground cannot be found then agree to disagree.



You are coming from a point of view that all ideas are merely opinions. There have to be some theological facts.

The only reason that theological points could be only opinions is that religion is simply made up.

On the contrary, I used the word opinion because various Christians do interpret or make interpretations regarding various Scriptures that do differentiate from each other. Different Protestant denominations exist and yet hold various beliefs that differ from one another yet they tie it to the same scripture reference. Many would call this a contradiction however people are used in different ways and for different purposes and ministries. So when I used the word opinions that was basically saying that people do interpret scriptures differently and not that it's just made up.

Micah,
The handout file won't open for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Phoenix Rising:
What is it with atheists trying to push their religion of non-religion down everyone's throats?
[..snip..]
Let me ask you a question. The law of conservation of mass states that matter can not be created or destroyed, only rearranged. How did the universe come to be in the first place?

These questions ought to go in a new thread "Questions for Atheists".

quote:

Originally posted by Duckbutt:
Here are a few problems of a Biblical nature:


1. The Bible clearly points out that I can sell my daughter into slavery, what is a good asking price for her nowadays?

2. The Bible tells us that we may enslave others, but only of neighboring nations. My friend tells me this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own a Canadian if I want to?

The Bible tells us that the skin of a dead pig is unclean, and we are forbidden to touch it. Can I still play football if I wear gloves?

1. Did they really do that in Biblical times?

2. In a sense, don't we enslave some of our immigrants by paying them low wages and neglecting their social safety net? In other words, some Americans find it profitable that these people come here because they are a hidden underclass of people to exploit.

quote:

Originally posted by Phoenix Rising:
What is it with atheists trying to push their religion of non-religion down everyone's throats?

Great you guys don't believe in God. That's apparently not enough for you since you want to turn the rest of the world into atheists too so we can be cool and join your little ghay club.

Let me ask you a question. The law of conservation of mass states that matter can not be created or destroyed, only rearranged. How did the universe come to be in the first place?

Thank you! I've never seen so many Atheist evangelists congregated into one area in my life. I can get along with just about everyone on these forums, but this is just annoying.

You guys want us to respect your right to not believe & stop trying to convert you. I agree with you. If God is in it, the conversation with be a two-way convo, not a one-way convo. However, you put other religions' evangelists to shame in your efforts to convert others to Atheism. JMHO

quote:

Thank you! I've never seen so many Atheist evangelists congregated into one area in my life. I can get along with just about everyone on these forums, but this is just annoying.

Whoa are these people anyway. Do you think some stranger on the Internet is going to change someone's religion? The region of our fathers and their fathers before them going back dozens of generations?

For all we know you guys are geeky, balding GIS graduates mascaraing as theologians. If you are maybe you would be better served by starting a local chapter of hair club for men.

<a href="http://graphjam.com/2008/06/16/song-chart-memes-god-vs-satan/"><img class="alignnone size-full wp-image-1732" src="http://graphjam.wordpress.com/files/2008/06/funny-graphs-god-v-satan.jpg" alt="song chart memes" /></a><br />more <a href="http://graphjam.com">graph humor and song chart memes</a>

Hi to all,

Throughout this discussion, I have seen nothing but innuendoes and posting of URLs to what "others" say. Not one of you, in your own words, have given us a specific Scripture verse or passage -- and shown it to be a contradiction or wrong. You all are just blowing smoke from the wrong end.

If you truly believe there is a contradiction in the Bible as was originally suggested -- give us the specific verse, why it is a contradiction, and what you believe it is saying.

Don't just give us, "Well, they had slaves in the Old Testament; they would not eat pigs in the Old Testament; they sold their daughters in the Old Testament" -- give us specific verses or passages -- and where you believe there is a contradiction.

Keep in mind that a contradiction is when one verse of the Bible tells us one thing -- and another verse tells us the opposite. A contradiction is not, "Why did God allow that to happen?" That is not a contradiction -- that is a question.

Let's get back to Duck's original statement: "If you believe the Bible is the word of God, especially the New Testament, then how do you explain the contradictions? What do you do in the instance of a contradiction?"

If you have specific Scripture verses or passages -- specific contradictions -- then, let's talk about them. Otherwise, quite trying to confuse folks with innuendoes and allusions.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net

Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!

quote:

you put other religions' evangelists to shame in your efforts to convert others to Atheism. JMHO

My dear Joy,

There are many reasons to be more than suspicious of religions. Irrational thinking, hatred of those who don't see the proper light, superstition, discrimination, retrogressive morality, willful ignorance, interference with scientific and philosophical progress, clannishness, the adoration of death, and the propagation of unnecessary fear (especially among children) come to mind.

Still, if you want to play, go ahead, it used to be a free country, after all.

However, with vastly increased knowledge, freedom, courage, academic resources, and accurate histories, those of us who choose not to fool ourselves with ancient mythologies are no longer content to let religions continue their influence on society, which is entirely disproportionate to their positive impact.

To take an extreme example, look at those nutjobs in the Middle East. Islam is not the problem, religion is. They are absolutely poisoned with it. To the extent they are consumed by religion, they are dangerous and intolerant. Fanaticism is necessary when reason and reality fail to support a preferred belief.

The time is over when religion can demand respect in the absence of earning it. The time is over when faith and "belief" are necessarily considered good things.

There have always been atheists, and there will be lots more if we freethinkers remind people that they are free to choose how to organize their minds. They are free to accept reality, rather than having to "believe" something they know is not true. YOU, my dear, are free to shed the burden of your birth, the religion you were raised in. Not going to? OK, but you can, and that's the point.

It's OK to be an atheist. Atheism is not synonymous with evil. We're as far from satan as god. As you can see from this forum, there are lots of atheists. Also, as you can see, there are some convincing, compelling reasons for nonbelief. We are no longer content to exist in the shadow of religion, in quiet resentment that we risk our families, jobs, social standing, even lives for telling the truth that religion is a fairy tale.

That's all it is. All it's ever been. You can make one up tomorrow, just like L. Bob Dullard, and for the same reason: They're moneymakers, my friend. Just be sure to look good on TV and deliver a rap any circus barker could better, and you too can be rich, respected, and wrong.

We are among you, and we're not going away. By the way, I'm not really interested in signing up new atheists, they'll come along by themselves. If I were, however, I'd be just like our favorite forum preacher who will, no doubt, write about 1100 words on this very post.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by Phoenix Rising:
Great you guys don't believe in God. That's apparently not enough for you since you want to turn the rest of the world into atheists too so we can be cool and join your little ghay club.

Dammit, guys. WHO RAN THEIR MOUTH and exposed the conspiracy? Loose lipses sinks shipses, people!

Bill wrote:

quote:

Throughout this discussion, I have seen nothing but innuendoes and posting of URLs to what "others" say. Not one of you, in your own words, have given us a specific Scripture verse or passage -- and shown it to be a contradiction or wrong. You all are just blowing smoke from the wrong end.

Bill,

The lineage Jesus in Matthew doesn't match the lineage of Jesus in Luke.

I 'll bet I can guess what happens next: You are going to say that one is the linage of Joseph and one is the linage of Mary. But that claim is not specified in the Bible, so your answer will depend on scholarly conjecture external to the scriptures on which you claim to solely rely.

Muddy

quote:

Whoa are these people anyway. Do you think some stranger on the Internet is going to change someone's religion?

Yes Phoenix, I was raised a Christian, had my doubts, did my own research, listened to reason, got really honest with myself, and stopped believing in the make believe. It was a very difficult thing for me to accept, but can assure you that I am much happier in my beliefs now. Finding other folks on the Internet with the same doubts and questions was very helpful to me..

quote:

The religion of our fathers and their fathers before them going back dozens of generations?

That is why you believe as you do. If your father was a buddhist and his father was a buddhist, you would probably be buddhist. Tradition does not mean truth.

quote:

For all we know you guys are geeky, balding GIS graduates mascaraing as theologians. If you are maybe you would be better served by starting a local chapter of hair club for men.

Not very Christian things to say about people. But no, I have my hair, I'm not geeky, and I don't even know what GIS stands for.

Muddy

quote:

Originally posted by Phoenix Rising:
For all we know you guys are geeky, balding GIS graduates mascaraing as theologians.

Hi PR,

Why is a theologian qualified to answer any questions about life?

Best,

Gee, Duckbutt, you're definitely on the S*&# List in this forum now.

Elvis, for some of us, there is no list. I enjoy discussions with all of you except on this subject.

It's brought up on every freakin' thread. Believe it or not, we CAN discuss things without bringing our personal religious beliefs into EVERY discussion we have here on the forums & no, I'm not talking about this thread. DF, GF, whoever make some joke about religion(s) or Bill (you are the only one I can think of - I know you are not the only one) is making some joke about atheism. It is annoying, people. I'm not your mother & you are free to say what you want, but I am free to tell you it inhibits discussion, effectively ending a good one to beat a dead horse every time.

You will not change an Atheist into a Christian or a Christian into an Atheist on an anonymous forum, IF that's the point & maybe it's not. Maybe you just like making fun of others so that you can feel superior. It may make you FEEL that way, but in reality, it makes you less. JMHO

DF, you know I think the world of you & you are my buddy. So I'm going to be straight with you just like I would with any of my friends.

You may be an authority on Atheism (whether you want to be or not ), but you are not an authority on Christianity. You cannot speak on a relationship with Christ because you have never had a relationship with Christ. Those of us that have a REAL relationship with Christ know that you are speaking without knowledge and/or experience. The reason your reasoning (which I of course see as faulty) does not penetrate is that you'd have to wipe our memories clean in order to have any effect on our beliefs. We have huge life experiences that are all the proof we need. You guys are wasting your breath.

quote:

Originally posted by muddytoes20: Bill wrote:

quote:

Throughout this discussion, I have seen nothing but innuendoes and posting of URLs to what "others" say. Not one of you, in your own words, have given us a specific Scripture verse or passage -- and shown it to be a contradiction or wrong.

Bill,

The lineage Jesus in Matthew doesn't match the lineage of Jesus in Luke.

I 'll bet I can guess what happens next: You are going to say that one is the lineage of Joseph and one is the lineage of Mary. But that claim is not specified in the Bible, so your answer will depend on scholarly conjecture external to the scriptures on which you claim to solely rely.

Muddy

Hi Muddy,

Both the genealogies, Matthew and Luke are genealogies of Jesus -- but traced through both the maternal and the paternal lineages. In my own personal genealogy, when I traced through my father's paternal lineage I ended up in 1580 with a g-g-g-g-g-grandfather who was born in England, then relocated to Ireland where he later died. Yet, if I trace through my father's maternal lineage, I end up with a g-g-g-g-g-grandfather born in Ireland in 1600. Both are my legitimate genealogies; yet traced through different lineage paths. Now I have exposed the wee secret of me blarney!

Matthew and Luke do the same with the genealogies of Jesus. Yet, these two also look at the genealogies of Jesus from a cultural viewpoint.

So, in your question is about the two genealogies found in Matthew and Luke; these are the genealogies of Jesus Christ, the human Jesus -- seen from two different cultural viewpoints. Matthew looks at Jesus' genealogy, as we would expect, from the Jewish viewpoint, the lineage of the father. Matthew takes us from Abraham forward to Joseph, the husband of Mary. In the Jewish mind, this is the genealogy of Jesus -- traced through Joseph's lineage; even though Joseph was only the adoptive father of Jesus.

Luke takes a Gentile look at the genealogy of Jesus, just as we do genealogies today; looking backwards from Jesus, through Joseph, the step-father of Jesus. In this genealogy Joseph is called the "son of Eli" -- who was the biological father of Mary. This allowed Luke to trace through the lineage of Mary; yet conform to the Jewish legal custom of that day. This only means that Joseph was the "son of Levi" in the sense that he was the husband of Eli's daughter, Mary. Today we would just call him a son-in-law. This genealogy traces the human lineage of Jesus through the lineage of Mary, since she was the actual mother of the human side of Jesus -- and goes all the way back, through Seth, to Adam.

While Bible scholars and theologians will agree that neither genealogy is complete, that there are most likely gaps --- the main purpose of both is to show the genealogy of Jesus Christ from both the Jewish and the Gentile cultural viewpoints. So, in that respect, there is no discrepancy.

Does my answer, as you say, "depend on scholarly conjecture external to the scriptures on which you claim to solely rely."

No. It is clear in the Bible that Matthew is a Jew. His name was originally Levi, but was changed to Matthew after he began to follow Jesus. His Gospel was written for the Jewish believers; based in Jewish culture. In this culture; one would always start with Abraham, a gentile whose lineage bore the first Jew, Judah -- and comes forward.

On the other hand, Luke was a Greek, a gentile -- and his approach, just as ours today, would be the gentile approach -- start from today and trace backward as far as possible. As I said, I traced my paternal grandfather back to England/Ireland in 1580. Luke went all the way back to Adam for Jesus' genealogy.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi to all,

Throughout this discussion, I have seen nothing but innuendoes and posting of URLs to what "others" say. Not one of you, in your own words, have given us a specific Scripture verse or passage -- and shown it to be a contradiction or wrong. You all are just blowing smoke from the wrong end.

Blessed by God to be a Christian American!

Bill, I'm sure you know the verses better than me, so why don't you post 'em for me.

In Sunday school one year I learned that the Bible says "an eye for an eye". Another year I learned that the Bible says "turn the other cheek".

And that is just the beginning. If I read one version of the Bible there is mention of the Holy Spirit, but in a very popular version there is the Holy Ghost. Hmmmm......

These things happen when men start with a copy of a copy of a copy and then pick and choose and then edit, edit, edit writings that are most often originally by non-witnesses of events.

Have a Blissed day, Bill.

Hi Crusty,

You loudly declare that there are discrepancies in the Bible; then you ask me, "Bill, I'm sure you know the verses better than me, so why don't you post 'em for me."

Well, duh! If you decide to rob a bank -- will you ask the security guard to hold your gun for you -- while you pick up the money?

Either you know the Bible well enough to make these claims -- or you are just parroting what you have heard from equally unknowledgable atheists.

Give me specific Scripture verses or passages where you have found discrepancies, or perceived desceptancies, and I will respond with specific answers.

Give me innuendoes and "they said" allusions -- and I will find a more productive posts where I can respond and share the Gospel.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

We are among you, and we're not going away.

That has to be the most ominous statement I have ever read on this wacko forum. DF, you sound like you are a Big Brother organization waiting to take down the Christians. Also, by your interpertation, Christians are ignorant, mindless, foolish, fearful individuals who have no independent thought.
AND you wonder why 'preaching' atheists are not accepted?

My original post was partly with humor in mind but those examples I cited do represent real contradictions to any view of a deity as loving, compassionate, and edifying. Frankly, the Old Testament God was a hardliner! Very clearly, if you look at the Bible as a whole there are problems.

Bill Gray, you seem to have a problem with my screen name. If I were to tell you that it's a nickname for a type of twin-engined amphibuous plane, would that soothe your squeamishness?

What is everybody so afraid of? Is this why some people concoct theologically dubious ideas as the Rapture and the Tribulation?

Here's a religious-oriented song for you:

In my opinion, a perfectly beautiful religious song expressing sentiments beautifully is "Dropkick me Jesus Through the Goalposts of Life." Bobby Bare manages to be both humorous and sincere in what possibly is the only example of a religious football waltz. Just go to this site:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SO5Y1OuQIxo

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Crusty,

You loudly declare that there are discrepancies in the Bible; then you ask me, "Bill, I'm sure you know the verses better than me, so why don't you post 'em for me."

Well, duh! If you decide to rob a bank -- will you ask the security guard to hold your gun for you -- while you pick up the money?

Either you know the Bible well enough to make these claims -- or you are just parroting what you have heard from equally unknowledgable atheists.

Give me specific Scripture verses or passages where you have found discrepancies, or perceived desceptancies, and I will respond with specific answers.

Give me innuendoes and "they said" allusions -- and I will find a more productive posts where I can respond and share the Gospel.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Well, duh, Bill. Your reading comprehension fails you once again.

So I will repeat. An eye for an eye, turn the other cheek. No atheists taught me these, but my Sunday school teachers did. You are telling me that these aren't in the Bible? Innuendos?

Have a blissed and senile day, Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by littlemeanmama:
Also, by your interpertation, Christians are ignorant, mindless, foolish, fearful individuals who have no independent thought.

I won't speak for DF, but I apply these traits to the literal Bible, young earth, ID fundamentalists.

What Crusty said.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by CrustyMac:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray: Hi Crusty,

You loudly declare that there are discrepancies in the Bible; then you ask me, "Bill, I'm sure you know the verses better than me, so why don't you post 'em for me."

Well, duh! If you decide to rob a bank -- will you ask the security guard to hold your gun for you -- while you pick up the money?

Either you know the Bible well enough to make these claims -- or you are just parroting what you have heard from equally unknowledgeable atheists.

Give me specific Scripture verses or passages where you have found discrepancies, or perceived discrepancies, and I will respond with specific answers.

Give me innuendoes and "they said" allusions -- and I will find a more productive posts where I can respond and share the Gospel.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Well, duh, Bill. Your reading comprehension fails you once again.

So I will repeat. An eye for an eye, turn the other cheek. No atheists taught me these, but my Sunday school teachers did. You are telling me that these aren't in the Bible? Innuendoes?

Have a blissed and senile day, Bill.

Hi Crusty,

If you are claiming that there is a discrepancy in the Bible; then you must know the verse. Otherwise, how can you state that there is a discrepancy when you do not even know the Scripture verse? Don't tell me what you have heard from others. Find a specific Scripture verse or passage --- tell that to me -- then tell me why you think it is wrong. Otherwise you are just blowing smoke.

You cannot declare that a verse if wrong if you do not even know where to find the verse.

If your Sunday School teacher taught you the verses -- then you should be able to give me that information. That is like telling someone, "You gave me the wrong address."

They ask you, "What address did I give you?"

And, all you can tell them is, "I don't know what address you gave me -- but, I know it is wrong." Well, duh!

Crusty, if we are going to have a dialogue -- let's make it two sided. Show me a specific discrepancy; then, let's talk. And, please do not wait around, hoping someone else will come up with a verse -- and then you can say, "Yeah. That one."

If you make a claim; back it with specifics.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:
What Crusty said.

DF

Not so fast DF. You do have more disdain for the Creationists and ID fundamentalists but you have repeatedly siad any one who believes in God is ignorant. You even told Joy to 'play' along.
"""those of us who choose not to fool ourselves with ancient mythologies are no longer content to let religions continue their influence on society, which is entirely disproportionate to their positive impact."""

When did I say that christians are necessarily ignorant?

DF

Every post of yours always implies it if not stated out right. However, Fish does seem to go a little further.
"Our ignorance is God; what we know is science."

I'm very curious where I even implied that all christians are ignorant. So, give me one example, please.

DF

Here is one of many DF. You have thousands so it is hard to give a complete list. Just type in the word 'ignorant' or 'ignorance' as I did and see what pops up. You may be surprised your self.

"""You should not. The two are different discussions. Evolution is science, backed up by mountains of evidence and a predictive, falsifiable hypothesis.

If you are really convinced that Christianity is antithetical to evolution, then you should insist that every high school student learn the Theory of Evolution, so that they will know and understand that with which you would have them disagree. Or would you prefer them to remain ignorant? Decide!

You would have them remain ignorant of real, demonstrable science in order to maintain the falsehood of your dogmatic superstition. Shame on you.""" DF

PS:When did I say that christians are necessarily ignorant? Nice try at qualifying by adding 'necessarily'

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:


If you make a claim; back it with specifics.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Okay, Bill. I'll play by your rules.

Exodus 21:23-25
23 "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

Leviticus 24:19-21
19 "If a man injures his neighbor, just as he has done, so it shall be done to him: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; just as he has injured a man, so it shall be inflicted on him. 21 "Thus the one who kills an animal shall make it good, but the one who kills a man shall be put to death.

Matthew 5:39
But I say to you, That you resist not evil: but whoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.

So, Bill. There's the conflicting verses I was referring to, and these aren't the only ones, we both know it, and I'm way too lazy to become the Bible scholar it requires to even begin to listing all the problems. I'm sure you can type paragraphs and paragraphs of inanity explaining why these aren't discrepancies. And I know you think you've played some kind of trick on me to actually do a little homework. Don't flatter yourself, you are an amateur when it comes to psychological manipulation.

But there you have it, Bill just one of the many problems with the Bible.

Have a wonderful and blissed day, Bill.

The first two verses are from the OT. The conflicting one is from the NT. Except for the OT laws that Jesus reaffirmed, we go by the NT teachings, not OT. That's why it conflicts.

meanie,

Sorry, but you failed to show me. The quote of mine you provided referred to the ignorance of evolution. The lack of knowledge of it, which is ignorance. I did not say that christians are ignorant.

You see, creationism is not the default fallback alternative to evolution. It has to prove itself worthy of being respected as a scientific position, and it has failed magnificently.

Christians are not necessarily ignorant, but Creationists are.

DF

OK, this one has nothing to do with evolution DF. You are still acting superior.

''''Tac, if you believe in a sky god who breathed life into a pile of dirt, rather than sound science, then I am hardly the "fool" in this conversation.


I'm sorry if science challenges your religion. I know you have invested your sense of reality into it for a long time, and any challenge to that is a challenge to your sensibilities. It would take a big person to come to a conclusion that reality is not what one envisioned, what one has always accepted it to be, and there are very few Big People.

Human progress is seldom made by common opinion, but by a small committee of Big People.'''

I'm not acting.

Tac had called me a fool for not believing in an imaginary sky god who intervenes in the outcome of high school football games, or some such nonsense, yet has never cured an amputee.

And I stand by my statements. However, that does not make christians necessarily ignorant.

Come on, show me where I have said christians are categorically ignorant.

DF

Now you are saying YOU are Superior???
Im done with this IDIOTCY.

quote:

Im done with this IDIOTCY.

um.....



DF

quote:

Well, duh, Bill. Your reading comprehension fails you once again.

So I will repeat. An eye for an eye, turn the other cheek. No atheists taught me these, but my Sunday school teachers did. You are telling me that these aren't in the Bible? Innuendos?

Not to speak for Bill but rather as an opinion on your mention of the verses listing them as a conflict.

quote:

Exodus 21:23-25
23 "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

Leviticus 24:19-21
19 "If a man injures his neighbor, just as he has done, so it shall be done to him: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; just as he has injured a man, so it shall be inflicted on him. 21 "Thus the one who kills an animal shall make it good, but the one who kills a man shall be put to death.

Matthew 5:39
But I say to you, That you resist not evil: but whoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.

So, Bill. There's the conflicting verses I was referring to, and these aren't the only ones, we both know it, and I'm way too lazy to become the Bible scholar it requires to even begin to listing all the problems. I'm sure you can type paragraphs and paragraphs of inanity explaining why these aren't discrepancies. And I know you think you've played some kind of trick on me to actually do a little homework. Don't flatter yourself, you are an amateur when it comes to psychological manipulation.

Not to attempt to answer for Bill but rather to address the statement that this is a conflict. On the surface it would appear to be so, especially if the verses were in the same context, written by the same person. There are Sections of the Bible that apply to specific people and groups of people and at specific times for specific purposes and not to other groups of people. Some laws or covenants were between God and the Jewish people and not intended for Gentiles (non-Jews). This also would seemingly be conflicting on the surface if all you heard was specific verses stuck up against each other yet totally out of context. The specific verses you mentioned in Exodus are part of many that Moses gave to the people of Israel, the Jews" and were, on through Leviticus laws were amplified and expanded upon. Take Exodus 31 and the Sabbath (Saturday)
Exodus 31:12-17 (New International Version)
31:12 Then the LORD said to Moses,
13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.
14 "'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.
15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.
16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant.
17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.'"

This was a covenant between Israel and God yet many see the Sabbath as a conflict when it comes to the New Testament in fact the Pharisees blamed Christ for violating the Sabbath but Christ clarified the Sabbath there was no Conflict.

Regarding Matthew 5;39 I'll quote directly from "The Bible Knowledge Commentary" on these verses:
"Matthew 5:38-42 (Luke 6:29-30). The words Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth come from several Old Testament passages (Ex. 21:24; Lev. 24:20; Deut. 19:21); they are called the lex talionis, the law of retaliation. This law was given to protect the innocent and to make sure retaliation did not occur beyond the offense. Jesus pointed out, however, that while the rights of the innocent were protected by the Law, the righteous need not necessarily claim their rights. A righteous man would be characterized by humility and selflessness. Instead he might go “the extra mile” to maintain peace. When wronged by being struck on a cheek, or sued for his tunic (undergarment; a cloak was the outer garment), or forced to travel with someone a mile, he would not strike back, demand repayment, or refuse to comply. Instead of retaliating he would do the opposite, and would also commit his case to the Lord who will one day set all things in order (cf. Rom. 12:17-21). This was seen to its greatest extent in the life of the Lord Jesus Himself, as Peter explained (1 Peter 2:23).
— Bible Knowledge Commentary"

Jesus Christ introduce not only the "New" Covenant which didn't do away with the Law and Laws of the past but clarified them as told in Romans 6 & 7. What appears many times as conflicts are not but rather totally separate topics and to realize that means digging in and understanding the context in which each verse was not only written but placed within, to whom was it written and what purpose?

quote:

Sorry, but you failed to show me. The quote of mine you provided referred to the ignorance of evolution. The lack of knowledge of it, which is ignorance. I did not say that Christians are ignorant.

And I have never, ever called all Christians ignorant. I used to be one. I understand what and how they feel.

I have distilled all the religion debates we have here into two categories:

1: Should the bible be used as a foundation for all moral values?

2: Should the bible be used as a valid scientific reference manual?

The current discussion touches a little on each.

The more affirmative your answer is to either these questions, the higher degree of ignorance.

Meanie, I do not recall a single instance where Deep, I and other non believers have called you ignorant or stupid. You most certainly are not. Our vehemence is generally directed at only those who would hold the bible as literal science or a yard stick for morality. Bill Gray is the worst of these willfully ignorant people but you know who the others are.

And those "others" are not you, friend, but you often put yourself in the line of fire.

'''called me a fool for not believing in an imaginary sky god''''

'''that does not make christians necessarily ignorant'''

posting as Jesus H Christ.

These things bother me Fish. You and Deep may not believe all Christians are ignorant but these types of things get under my skin. I'm not even a "Go to Church every Sunday person" but to ridicule belief in God and to demean Him by refusing to even use capitals letters just hits me the wrong way. I admit I lost my temper with DF. It was a long day and he got the brunt of my anger. My apologies. To assume that you can tell me why my faith is wrong is to assume that you are an omnipotent being. You cannot look into my soul or see my life from the inside. I do not agree with Mr. Gray on his fundamentalist's attitudes but he is free to believe how he wishes. I cannot ignore evolutionary evidence but it does not contradict Biblical stories. God could have very easily created the "Big Bang". I also do not discredit other religious beliefs. How do I know whether God appeared as Budda or Zeus or Thor? That will make the fundamentalists angry with me but I'm used to it. I guess this rambling is to say that if you ridicule a person's belief, no matter what is it, it is offensive. I also believe in ghosts and re-incarnation which will really gets things hot.
So if I jump in the line of fire, my ancestors made me do it.

quote:

You and Deep may not believe all Christians are ignorant but these types of things get under my skin.

I understand. Really, I do. I was once one of you.

I'm sure you will also understand how offended I am when stupid people constantly inform me that me (and, by reference, members of my family) are going to be condemned by a man in the sky and tortured for eternity no mater how moral we strive to be. I am sure you will understand how I feel when I am forced to obey your team's commandment that I not enjoy an adult beverage the day AFTER the sabbath. I am sure you will understand how offended I am that your team peeks in the bedroom door of consenting adults in an effort to withhold inalienable rights from good Americans. I know you understand how offensive it is for male fundies to poke their nose in your uterus and tell you what can and cannot grow there.

The rights of those who lack belief in the supernatural are under constant assault in nearly every facet of our daily lives. We are are forced to cower in these forums out of fear for our reputations and even our lives (Christians can be violent when intellectually challenged, you know). So, I understand how you feel, Meanie, but you only have to put up with it here on these forums.

I will never condemn you or anyone for anything, I am not God and that is not my place.
I enjoy an adult beverage before, during, and after the Sabbath. Drunkenness is a sin, not drinking.
I may not have the assault against my faith (or lack of) that you do, but we all have things that cause grief or shame in public. One of my children has a personality disorder. K has problems with groups and making decisions. K sees a psychiatrist. Try telling people your kid goes to a shrink and watch what happens. They either look at you in shock or make excuses to leave quickly. One of my 'friends' would not even invite K to birthday parties because she 'has a problem'. I learned to deal with it over time. If people cannot accept you as you are, who cares? If you told me right now what business you own, it would make no difference to me that you're atheist. I don't ask my doctor what religion he is or my garbage man, its private and personal and nobody's business but yours. I do believe a person can be moral without being a Christian, but that's just my own interpretation. People who pass judgment will face their own of some kind one day. I do hope and pray that I pass.

quote:

I will never condemn you or anyone for anything, I am not God and that is not my place.

And I know you would not and have not. I could say that for the vast majority of the believers here.

I am very glad to see the likes of you and Nash combating the ignorance of those that speak with willful ignorance, unabashed pride and pretend to have the powers of judgment.

Yeah, you, Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:
I understand. Really, I do. I was once one of you.

GoFish, I think you love to argue & are a bit ornery and/or direct at times, but you are basically a good person and FWIW I like you. Having said that, in order to have been one of us, or one of me , and now believe as you do, you would have to have amnesia. It is impossible to experience a real relationship with Christ & believe as you do today.

I'm sure you went through the motions of church ritual & tried your best in your own power to make it work. Your best efforts won't save you or reconcile you to God. Thus, Jesus. Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is "LORD". If you explore that word, you will find where most people miss the boat. He cannot be Lord unless you surrender - His power, not our power - His will, not our will.

You won't get to know a God of your choosing that fits into your idea what what He should be. THAT would be a book of fiction born out of human imagination, pride & perhaps fear. God is who 'He' says He is. JMHO

quote:

Originally posted by NashBama:
The first two verses are from the OT. The conflicting one is from the NT. Except for the OT laws that Jesus reaffirmed, we go by the NT teachings, not OT. That's why it conflicts.

Ah, so the Bible isn't the literal Word of God? Or is it that only half of the Bible is literal? Now I'm confused. There are conflicts? You say there are, but they aren't? Why didn't God edit the OT so there wasn't a conlfict? God changed his mind?

quote:

God changed his mind?

CrustyMac,

The Old and New Testament was originally called Plan A and Plan B.

Muddy

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:
I understand. Really, I do. I was once one of you.

GoFish, I think you love to argue & are a bit ornery and/or direct at times, but you are basically a good person and FWIW I like you. Having said that, in order to have been one of us, or one of me , and now believe as you do, you would have to have amnesia. It is impossible to experience a real relationship with Christ & believe as you do today.

Hello Joy,

I would believe Fish at his word. I would also believe you at your word that you are a Christian. There quite a few people who were extremely faithful who became atheists or agnostics. A few examples off the top of my head Dan Barker, Robert M. Price, and Matt Dillahunty.

Did you say, in effect, that for a Christian to become an atheist would require amnesia?

I try to take people at their word when it comes to what they label themselves as until I find evidence otherwise.

Best regards,

Micah, I also take GoFish at his word. He honestly believes that what he had is all there is. He said he was once one of us. That is impossible. For me to be an Atheist would require amnesia. Therefore, if he is one of us or one of me, that is exactly what it would require.

quote:

Originally posted by muddytoes20:

quote:

God changed his mind?

CrustyMac,

The Old and New Testament was originally called Plan A and Plan B.

Muddy

i don't usually, but i'm laughing out loud at that one, muddy!

quote:

Originally posted by muddytoes20:

quote:

God changed his mind?

CrustyMac,

The Old and New Testament was originally called Plan A and Plan B.

Muddy

If somebody had explained it that way to begin with I'd have reached a state of unobstructed enlightenment. Wow! It all makes sense now. Thanks.

Crusty... Be HEE-alled in the A and the B.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by gbrk:

Not to speak for Bill but rather as an opinion on your mention of the verses listing them as a conflict.

Your enlightened response would never be mistaken for Bill's usual hypocritical diatribes.

dialectic, I understand what you are saying & appreciate you sharing your experience, but what I replied to was GoFish saying that he was one of us. He was never one of me. God did for me something that no human being, including myself, on earth could do. He healed pain that I didn't think could be removed & made me whole for the first time that I could ever remember, didn't even know what whole was before that. You can not see inside my memory in order for me to prove that, but I stand by what I said. In order for GoFish to be one of me & be an Atheist, his memory would have to be erased.

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:
Crusty... Be HEE-alled in the A and the B.

DF

I'm thinking more along the lines of some penne, a white wine sauce, a greek salad, and a little white wine. That should cure what ails me.

I see you are a convert to The One True Religion..... go with pasta.


DF

Hi Micah,

You say, "Hello Joy, I would believe Fish at his word. I would also believe you at your word that you are a Christian. There quite a few people who were extremely faithful who became atheists or agnostics. A few examples off the top of my head Dan Barker, Robert M. Price, and Matt Dillahunty."

When you say that you know "a few people who were extremely faithful who became atheists or agnostics" -- by what criteria are you declaring these people to be faithful Christian believers? You might tell me, "I take their word for it" -- and possibly that is sufficient for the secular world. But, in the Christian world, that does not fly -- for I have seen many supposed Christians and even Christian preachers who I seriously doubt even know how to spell "believer." Many wear the Christian hat -- but, are Christians in name only.

No, my Friend, just because a person tells you he is a believer -- does not make it true. One of the best examples is Charles Templeton, a great evangelist in the 1940s, doing great crusades -- and helping Billy Graham get started. Yes, he taught the Word, intellectually he taught the Word -- but did he himself believe the Word? Obviously he did not; for in the late 1940s he enrolled in Princeton Theological Seminary -- one of the most Liberal of all seminaries -- in an attempt to learn the Word. But, going to an extremely liberal seminary to learn the Word -- is like the fat lady who goes to Baskin-Robbins to lose weight.

We are told of Templeton at http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i3/unbelief.asp :

Templeton warned (Billy) Graham that it was ‘intellectual suicide’ to not question the Bible and to go on preaching God’s Word as authoritative. With this background of doubt about God’s Word welling up inside, and lacking any type of formal education, he decided to pursue a degree in theology at Princeton Theological Seminary. Resigning from the church he had pastored for several years, Templeton began, with special permission, his course work at Princeton in 1948.[/b]

And, you might tell me, "But, Bill, look how successful Templeton was in his crusades; leading many to faith in Jesus Christ. Doesn't this show that he was a true believer?" No. It just shows that he intellectually knew the right words and knew the Bible well. Hey, many atheists know the Bible as well, or better, than many Christians. But, that does not make them believers.

Then, how about all those folks who were saved at the Templeton Crusades?

First, let me say that neither Charles Templeton, Billy Graham, nor Bill Gray saves anyone. The Holy Spirit does all the harvesting of souls. We who share the Word only plant the seeds that the Holy Spirit harvests. Have you ever watched an illiterate farmer sow seeds in his cotton field? He sows the seeds; the Lord brings the harvest to him -- and the Holy Spirit brings the harvest of souls.

And, yes, all those folks who truly received Jesus Christ at a Templeton Crusade were saved and has His promise of eternal life.

Micah, I realize that responding to you by quoting the Bible, in your mind, is circular reasoning. But, since I am not writing for your benefit -- but, for the many other Forum Friends who are Christian believers and those Forum Friends who might be seeking -- I will stick to the only true authority we have in this world -- the Bible.

In Matthew 7:15-20, Jesus Himself tells us, "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits."

I do believe He was speaking of people such as you mentioned -- and folks like Charles Templeton. By the way, Templeton died of Alzheimer’s disease; so one might wonder just how long this had been affecting his thinking.

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus continues by telling us how He will respond to such wolves in sheep's clothing, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.'"

Micah, you may say, "I try to take people at their word when it comes to what they label themselves as until I find evidence otherwise."

And that is admirable; but, not a true indicator. No, Micah, we truly cannot assume that one is a Christian believer just because he makes the claim. His life has to reflect Jesus Christ, truly reflect Him -- and not just speak intellectually about Him.

I can believe you are an atheist; for that is easy to discern. When you declare that you do not believe that God exists; you have labeled yourself. However, when a person tells me he is following Jesus; I expect to see fruit of that Christian walk -- and not just intellectual jargon.

Micah, thank you for this opportunity to share the truth with all of our Forum Friends.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net

Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
He said he was once one of us. That is impossible. .

I let ya slide the first time, Joy but I gotta tell you: I find this statement incredibly offensive.

How can you possibly know what was in my head back then? Yes, my beliefs were complicated, I had doubts and questions like everyone else but I DID feel the stirrings of God in my heart. Especially during a powerful hymn or after reaching the summit of a mountain or looking in my boy's eyes for the first time, hell, every time. I prayed fervently and was devoted to my church. I prayed The Prayer to ask Jesus into my heart a million times with great sincerity.

It is difficult to imagine you having the audacity to tell me I could not have thought what I so clearly thought.

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
He said he was once one of us. That is impossible. .

I let ya slide the first time, Joy but I gotta tell you: I find this statement incredibly offensive.

How can you possibly know what was in my head back then? Yes, my beliefs were complicated, I had doubts and questions like everyone else but I DID feel the stirrings of God in my heart. Especially during a powerful hymn or after reaching the summit of a mountain or looking in my boy's eyes for the first time, hell, every time. I prayed fervently and was devoted to my church. I prayed The Prayer to ask Jesus into my heart a million times with great sincerity.

It is difficult to imagine you having the audacity to tell me I could not have thought what I so clearly thought.

What in the WORLD, would cause you to turn away from The promise of God?

Fish, I know that you and I do differ quite a lot on this forum but I can't help but see from your statement above that you still may have a small piece of God left in your heart. What would it take for you to believe once again? Do you need a miracle to spark your beliefs in God? Do you need an over whelming experience to feel His love again?

I tell you what, if you live here in North Alabama then I will show you my Christian friendship. I invite you to church. Muscle Shoals First Assembly of God would love to have you attend. Faith Church in Florence would love you to attend. The River Chruch in St. Florene would love yo to attend. Oak Grove Methodist Chruch would love to have you attend in Moulton, Decatur Christian Fellowship would love for you to attend, New Beginnings of Flroence would love for you to attend, Florence First Assembly of God would love you to attend. There are so many churches here in North Alabam that would love you to attend.

I will come by your place and pick you up and we can attend any Christian Church in North Alabam together. Just p.m me and let me know. I am here for you, Jesus is here for you. You still have the same opportunities you once had. It is never to late until you are gone.

God bless,

quote:

What would it take for you to believe once again? Do you need a miracle to spark your beliefs in God? Do you need an over whelming experience to feel His love again?

I'm what you call a "lost soul" Bray. My eyes have been opened to the truth. I am now able to think critically about the feelings and emotions I once had and admitted to myself that I was fooling myself for nearly my entire life.

You are well meaning but deluded, Bray. I do not want to be preached to by you. My soul does not need saving. It is people like you, Bill Gray and my own preachers whose closed minds and crazy assertions allowed me to see the light of reason.

The likelihood of me ever becoming a believer in ANYTHING supernatural is exactly the same as you re-believing in Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny.

But thanks, anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:

quote:

What would it take for you to believe once again? Do you need a miracle to spark your beliefs in God? Do you need an over whelming experience to feel His love again?

I'm what you call a "lost soul" Bray. My eyes have been opened to the truth. I am now able to think critically about the feelings and emotions I once had and admitted to myself that I was fooling myself for nearly my entire life.

You are well meaning but deluded, Bray. I do not want to be preached to by you. My soul does not need saving. It is people like you, Bill Gray and my own preachers whose closed minds and crazy assertions allowed me to see the light of reason.

The likelihood of me ever becoming a believer in ANYTHING supernatural is exactly the same as you re-believing in Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny.

But thanks, anyway.

------------------------------------------------

O.K.

Is what I said really that difficult to understand or are you guys just simply seeing what you want to see? GoFish, you claim to have been one of us. So tell me, how amazing was it when God healed you and made you whole? You have, after all, been exactly where I've been but have since been enlightened, right? No, you have not had the same experiences that I have. To turn away from God after that would be insane and you are not insane. JMHO

quote:

The likelihood of me ever becoming a believer in ANYTHING supernatural is exactly the same as you re-believing in Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny.

Be careful now! Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny very much exist. The real question is to whom do they exist? If you ask the right people you will certainly get the right answer, that yes Santa does exist for he brings me toys each year so the question of if something exist or not, I would suggest, depends on perspective.

quote:

So tell me, how amazing was it when God healed you and made you whole?

Dear Joy, I have never been "broken." I have never been less than I am now. I know that kind of talk makes sense to you but it has absolutely no meaning to me.

I was a deist. It really is as simple and as as complex as that. I believed in God but didn't accept much of the preacher's dogma. You would have (may have?) called me your brother and I would have embraced you as my sister - perhaps not "in Christ" but in similar beliefs.

But make no mistake, Joy, I was a believer.

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:

quote:

So tell me, how amazing was it when God healed you and made you whole?

Dear Joy, I have never been "broken." I have never been less than I am now. I know that kind of talk makes sense to you but it has absolutely no meaning to me.

I was a deist. It really is as simple and as as complex as that. I believed in God but didn't accept much of the preacher's dogma. You would have (may have?) called me your brother and I would have embraced you as my sister - perhaps not "in Christ" but in similar beliefs.

But make no mistake, Joy, I was a believer.

Hi Fish,

You may have been an "intellectual" believer -- but, I doubt very seriously if you were a "spiritual" believer. For, I do not believe that anyone, who has truly walked with the Lord, can turn away from Him.

And, the fact that you claim to have been a deist is proof of that. What is deism? According to Wikipedia:

Deism is the belief that a supreme god exists and created the physical universe, but does not intervene in its normal operation. It is related to a religious philosophy and movement that derives the existence and nature of God from reason.

In other words, a deist is one who "intellectually" believes there is a god, but not necessarily God. So, by your own words, you were not a Christian believer, but an intellectual deist. For that same reason, neither Joy, nor any other Christian believer, could have ever called you "brother" in the Biblical sense.

You may claim that you have never been "broken." However, given the fact that all humans were created as triune beings: body, soul, and spirit -- and then, with the fall of Adam into the sin of disobedience, that "spirit" connection with God was lost -- we all can be considered "broken.'

However, God has given all of us a way to be "repaired" or redeemed. He sent His Son, Jesus Christ to die on the cross so that you, Joy, I, and everyone else will have an opportunity to accept His free gift of salvation and be "repaired."

I do pray that one day you will open you eyes, and your heart -- and see the real Truth; that you are lost without Him.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
...For, I do not believe that anyone, who has truly walked with the Lord, can turn away from Him.

...For that same reason, neither Joy, nor any other Christian believer, could have ever called you "brother" in the Biblical sense.

And there it is.

YOU presume to know what was in MY heart and mind. The miracles Joy has seen must be greater than the miracles I've seen, her experiences more profound, her transformation more marked. Because you people know exactly what degree of change or growth I'm capable of.

You're both afraid to believe that a person could experience the profound feeling of connection with God that you do and then come to understand what caused it, because it might mean the foundation for your beliefs is less spiritual. I suspect you'll keep right on being the know-it-alls that you are, but I'll tell you anyway... People of faith no less complete yours, people who have experienced the "love of God", have confided and trusted in him, have been touched, changed, and healed by "his power"... SOME of these people have discovered something else.

To insist that they "could have never been" where you are, just shows the wall your hiding behind to protect your own beliefs. I'm not even asking anyone to knock down that wall, but denying that anyone has seen both sides is close-minded, and to me, a bit dishonest.

quote:

Originally posted by dialectic.:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
...For, I do not believe that anyone, who has truly walked with the Lord, can turn away from Him.

...For that same reason, neither Joy, nor any other Christian believer, could have ever called you "brother" in the Biblical sense.

And there it is.

YOU presume to know what was in MY heart and mind. The miracles Joy has seen must be greater than the miracles I've seen, her experiences more profound, her transformation more marked. Because you people know exactly what degree of change or growth I'm capable of.

You're both afraid to believe that a person could experience the profound feeling of connection with God that you do and then come to understand what caused it, because it might mean the foundation for your beliefs is less spiritual. I suspect you'll keep right on being the know-it-alls that you are, but I'll tell you anyway... People of faith no less complete yours, people who have experienced the "love of God", have confided and trusted in him, have been touched, changed, and healed by "his power"... SOME of these people have discovered something else.

To insist that they "could have never been" where you are, just shows the wall your hiding behind to protect your own beliefs. I'm not even asking anyone to knock down that wall, but denying that anyone has seen both sides is close-minded, and to me, a bit dishonest.

Hi Dialectic,

Where did you come from? I was addressing Fish's comment to Joy. I have no idea where you stand with the Lord. But, Fish tells us he was a deist -- and that is not a Christian believer.

If you are going to jump into the middle of a discussion -- please do not come in firing from both barrels.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Where did I come from? It's a public discussion (and it appears I arrived before you anyway).
Sorry I didn't warm up with a few hundred posts saying the same thing.

Am I not included in the "anyone" you addressed in your quote?

quote:

Where did you come from? I was addressing Fish's comment to Joy.

Just as I was addressing Joy when you popped in?

Dialectic said exactly what I would have said if I were able to write as eloquently. He has obviously been there, done that just like many others. I will reiterate and reinforce something he stated: "People of faith no less complete yours, people who have experienced the "love of God", have confided and trusted in him, have been touched, changed, and healed by "his power"... SOME of these people have discovered something else. To insist that they "could have never been" where you are, just shows the wall your hiding behind to protect your own beliefs."

For you and Joy to pretend to know what I felt or claim that the thoughts I had were "impossible" is simply blindingly arrogant.

quote:

Originally posted by dialectic.:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
...For, I do not believe that anyone, who has truly walked with the Lord, can turn away from Him.

...For that same reason, neither Joy, nor any other Christian believer, could have ever called you "brother" in the Biblical sense.

And there it is.

YOU presume to know what was in MY heart and mind. The miracles Joy has seen must be greater than the miracles I've seen, her experiences more profound, her transformation more marked. Because you people know exactly what degree of change or growth I'm capable of.

You're both afraid to believe that a person could experience the profound feeling of connection with God that you do and then come to understand what caused it, because it might mean the foundation for your beliefs is less spiritual. I suspect you'll keep right on being the know-it-alls that you are, but I'll tell you anyway... People of faith no less complete yours, people who have experienced the "love of God", have confided and trusted in him, have been touched, changed, and healed by "his power"... SOME of these people have discovered something else.

To insist that they "could have never been" where you are, just shows the wall your hiding behind to protect your own beliefs. I'm not even asking anyone to knock down that wall, but denying that anyone has seen both sides is close-minded, and to me, a bit dishonest.

dialectic, how many times have Christians been told on TD forums that our relationship with God essentially does not exist, that Christians are weak-minded individuals believing in a fairy tale? Really? You know this HOW? As if they can know anything about me or my relationship with Father, Son & Spirit.

I question EVERYthing & my walk with God has been spiritual, intellectual & physical. I don't need someone presuming they know what they cannot know about me. What I responded to, AGAIN, was GoFish saying he was once one of us & he was never one of me.

If a person does not have an interactive love relationship with Jesus Christ, why in the world would they try to speak as an authority on the subject or presume to know all about my relationship with Jesus & tell me it does not exist? I don't need others to believe to know without a shadow of a doubt that the Father, Son and Spirit has have worked in my life.

GoFish, James 2:19 says "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder." Believer, sure, but is Jesus the Christ "Lord" of your life? Have you surrendered to His authority & His will for your life, abandoning your own will to serve Him in faith & to do whatever He asks because you trust Him completely?

What did the men and women of the Bible do by faith? They were not non-specific about who they believed in & their words were not empty or without result. "By faith, Abraham..." "By faith, Moses..." "By faith, Rahab..." By faith, Jesus' followers died telling others that the Savior had come. Those afraid of losing their power killed them to stop it from spreading. Despite their best efforts, it spread anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:
For you and Joy to pretend to know what I felt or claim that the thoughts I had were "impossible" is simply blindingly arrogant.

What I said was impossible is for you to have had the same experiences I have & be an Atheist. That would be insane & you are not insane.

Alright, I admit it. I was pissed. I'm human - so sue me. I am sorry if I went too far. I'm pretty sure I stepped over a line somewhere in there, but so did y'all. We don't agree and this should not result in high blood pressure. I have now read the Bible a while AND had chocolate - a winning combination for producing a happy Joy.

I swear, I am NOT going to enter these religious discussions again. NO, I mean it this time. Really!

quote:

Alright, I admit it. I was pissed. I'm human - so sue me. I am sorry if I went too far. I'm pretty sure I stepped over a line somewhere in there, but so did y'all. We don't agree and this should not result in high blood pressure. I have now read the Bible a while AND had chocolate - a winning combination for producing a happy Joy.

I swear, I am NOT going to enter these religious discussions again. NO, I mean it this time. Really!

Hang in there Joy, and STAY in there. Just because you get passionate about something very near and dear to you doesn't require you to apologize when you get upset but I respect that you did and I hope you won't avoid continuing to voice your views.

Joy,

You and Bill are right. Once you are a Christian, you can't turn away from God and be lost. God regenerates your heart and changes you. The doctrine of Perseverence of the Saints is correct. Once God saves someone he can't lose them.

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
dialectic, how many times have Christians been told on TD forums that our relationship with God essentially does not exist,

Never that I recall, Joy. I would not dare tell you that the thoughts you have in your head are "impossible" to have. I call people like Bill Gray "irrational" or even delusional but I would not dare say you or he cannot think what you claim to think. For all I know, god is giving you accurate predictions of tomorrow's winning lottery tickets. For all you know, my Flying Spaghetti Monster is just as "real" to me as yours (and He is!).

What you have and will continue to hear is that we atheists see no evidence for god. Until that evidence is presented, we can safely presume that god does not exist. The burden for proof is upon you for you are the one making the claim that I should believe as you do or face dammation.

But make no mistake: My disbelief is a provisional stance that is subject to change given enough evidence. For me, that evidence would have to be overwhelming such as aligning the stars to say, "Jesus loves you!" but even then I would need more confirmation.

For some other (less rational, IMO) atheist, the "evidence" to change his mind might be the birth of a child.

quote:

that Christians are weak-minded individuals believing in a fairy tale? Really? You know this HOW? As if they can know anything about me or my relationship with Father, Son & Spirit.

I believe that is a twisting of words on your part. I do believe that anyone that ascribes to intelligent design, 6000 year old earths and dinosaurs occupying the Ark is irrational, dishonest or ignorant. Anyone who celebrates the end of civilization is just crazy. Beyond that, I can't know what kind of relationship you have with your god.

quote:

What I responded to, AGAIN, was GoFish saying he was once one of us & he was never one of me.

I will grant you that I was not a Christian. I've never claimed otherwise. But for you to have the audacity to deny that I could have been a believer is just appalling, dear. How can you possibly pretend to know what was in my head for the first 40 years of my life?

For you to claim that no one could possibly have been "one of you" is the same as claiming that no Christian ever has any doubt whatsoever. We ALL experience doubt and have questions. Some of us simply admit the obvious.

Thanks, guys, but unfortunately, these conversations tick people off & I prefer happy.

We also can't seem to discuss our beliefs without inserting thoughts that do not exist into another person's words, such as GoFish saying "But for you to have the audacity to deny that I could have been a believer is just appalling, dear." My words exactly, right? Not so much.

I don't know if there have been so many bad experiences on this subject that we assume the other person is like someone else from our past or what, but it happens all the time. It's like the actual words were not read with the intent to understand what a person is saying but rather with the intent to argue the point. You know, we could try doing both at the same time, just for kicks.

GoFish, we simply don't get each other on this subject. Either you are not understanding what I am saying or I am not saying it well enough, but I think it's a lost cause. I seriously wish I would have not clicked on a thread by this one's title to begin with.

I had no intention of pissing you or anyone off, Joy.

I do understand your claim that nobody else has been "you, Joy", not "you, a believer in general". I'd never argue that point.

I WOULD (and intended to) claim that no one has been closer to God or more complete a Christian than I once believed I was. Others here state that no true and devoted Christian can ever turn from God. I did take your claim to be similar, but clearly you're trying to be very specific about your experiences, something NO two people share. I do understand, just so you don't feel like your shouting at a brick wall.

We do share the frustration of being told what we think, feel, and have experienced by folks who have neither the right nor the necessary knowledge to make such a claim.

20 years ago I'd have been trying to make the same points you are even half as well as you're doing it. I grouped you with the likes of Bill, who would try and tell me who I have been or could not have been... clearly something that raises both our hackles.

quote:

Originally posted by gbrk:

Be careful now! Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny very much exist. The real question is to whom do they exist? If you ask the right people you will certainly get the right answer, that yes Santa does exist for he brings me toys each year so the question of if something exist or not, I would suggest, depends on perspective.

gbrk, this statement says a lot about belief. to whom does santa or the easter bunny exist and why?

Can you give me an example of an adult who formerly did not believe in Santa or the Easter Bunny changing his mind?

After reading this thread and having discussions with Fish on the other thread, I am wondering if we can actually discuss the theory and ideas of the Bible without trying to one up each other. Please don't attack. I am not saying it is only a book, but it is more than just a religious doctrine. It is history and geology and science (down DF) and genealogy and mathematics.

Joy, I am a Christian but I do not have the same experience that you do, and I am glad I met you.

Bill, I am a Christian but cannot accept the complete Bible as inerrant. I believe it was when originally written by he original authors, but not after all the years of transcribing. I still feel it is the Word of God, but it is not inerrant now.

Fish, DF, Hoss, dialectic, and others: I do not condemn you or pass judgment on you. That is not my place. If all of us were supposed to believe, then we would not have the Free Will that Bill talks about so much. I am sure that all of you are good caring people who I would like to know. Bill says women cannot preach, but they can teach. So, I am teaching acceptance of each other without judgment or condemnation or hatred. LMM

meanie,

I appreciate the tone of your post.

However, for the bible to be taken as legitimate history or science is absurd.

Some of the historical things happened, many did not. The science of the bible is laughable. Sorry, there's no other word for it.

DF

Thanks, littlemeanmomma. I'm glad I met you, too.

dialectic, we cool. I let my emotions get ahead of my brain.

GoFish, are we burying the hatchet or what? Think this thing through now. You should know that I just found out on PuF's "just a little cute something" thread that I carry a saber and slay dragons. I'm just saying.

You picked the brownies too?!

Well no wonder there was such a ruckus here.

Alright, how many of us chose the brownies? Bunch of dragon slayer oddballs is what we are.

quote:

Originally posted by miamizsun:

quote:

Originally posted by gbrk:

Be careful now! Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny very much exist. The real question is to whom do they exist? If you ask the right people you will certainly get the right answer, that yes Santa does exist for he brings me toys each year so the question of if something exist or not, I would suggest, depends on perspective.

gbrk, this statement says a lot about belief. to whom does santa or the easter bunny exist and why?

Actually I was being very simplistic and certainly not keeping with the seriousness of the topic. Yet what I simply meant was this. To a child, up to a certain age or point, Santa Clause is very real and actually IS REAL as far as that person knows and also is the Easter Bunny. Many detest both those symbols because they reason that we will instill within a child that suspicion toward other more weighty things that that are far more serious like with regards to religion. I though don't think there is any harm in keeping a child's imagination alive and wondering.

I find myself often wishing I could once again believe in Santa for those time, when I did, were far more simpler times and far less stressful than life is as you age.

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:
meanie,

I appreciate the tone of your post.

However, for the bible to be taken as legitimate history or science is absurd.

Some of the historical things happened, many did not. The science of the bible is laughable. Sorry, there's no other word for it.

DF

Ahh, DF, just as I predicted. Did I say accurate down to the last detail history? Did I mention specific science? I know your precise analytical mind cannot see anything of value in that 'book'. However, even you admit to your own satisfaction that there are things of historical value. I ask no more than that from you.

6. CHOCOLATE CAKE WITH CHOCOLATE ICING -- Sexy; always ready
to give and receive. Very creative, adventurous, ambitious,
and passionate. You can appear to have a cold exterior but
are warm on the inside. Not afraid to take chances. Will not
settle for anything average in life. Love to laugh.


I think I like that.