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Well the numbers are in for first quarter growth and GDP rose slightly so the recession we have been told we were in for several months doesn't seem to exist. A recession requires 2 consecutive quarters of growth OR a upcoming presidential election with a republican incumbent.

I predict three days of silence and then the recession stories will pick back up.
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quote:
Originally posted by gracieadeline:
my business is booming, and the wife STARTED a new business in Jan. that is doing well, too. Costs are way too high, but people are still spending money, so far.



gracieadeline, I'm glad to know that your wife's business is doing well. I don't like to see anybody fall, go broke, or lose their home. But many have. I think what is keeping most people going is for years now they have been working two and three jobs, speaking of the husband and the wife, so they can afford that home, car, and vacation. But I think, eventually, it's going to hit without any warning. Your business is doing great because people are working and you better hope they continue to work. You better hope their job doesn't decide to move to China or Mexico. The same thing happened in the Great Depression. The prices slowly went up and up until all hell broke loose. This generation and generations before this generation has not suffered the hard times that the people did in the Great Depression. I've been watching it and I see it coming. You soon will too.
JJP,
For all our troubles, I would not trade them for any other countries.

China – 200 million people living in a middle class to upper class existence; 100 million working amongst the 200 million, less well off, but doing better than they've ever done in their lives; 800 million people for whom the live style of a 1925 Alabama sharecropper would be a significant step up. About 50 million males can’t find a wife. China has vast amounts of land, too bad most of it isn't arable. China has three of the four largest banks in the world. But, if you think our banks assets holdings are risky …?

Russia – cleaning up in the oil market establishing wealth the czars dreamt of. Vast amounts of land, rich in natural resources. Populated by only 141 million persons. A population that will decline by 32 million in the next 40 years, almost a 25 percent drop. Alcoholism, murder, and suicide are major causes of death. Males average life span is 58 years. The only sector of the population growing in the south central Asia area populated by poor muslims. And, oh yes, China claims a third of Asia Russia is actually Chinese territory
quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix Rising:
Well the numbers are in for first quarter growth and GDP rose slightly so the recession we have been told we were in for several months doesn't seem to exist. A recession requires 2 consecutive quarters of growth OR a upcoming presidential election with a republican incumbent.

I predict three days of silence and then the recession stories will pick back up.


what I find troubling is that the data is obviously skewed, and I mean all economic data coming from the government. I just don't trust it....
quote:
Originally posted by Howard Roark:
China – 200 million people living in a middle class to upper class existence; 100 million working amongst the 200 million, less well off, but doing better than they've ever done in their lives; 800 million people for whom the live style of a 1925 Alabama sharecropper would be a significant step up. About 50 million males can’t find a wife. China has vast amounts of land, too bad most of it isn't arable. China has three of the four largest banks in the world. But, if you think our banks assets holdings are risky …?



Is the population of China ever expected to decrease because of the lack of wives/women there?
quote:
Originally posted by Howard Roark:
JJP,
For all our troubles, I would not trade them for any other countries.

China – 200 million people living in a middle class to upper class existence; 100 million working amongst the 200 million, less well off, but doing better than they've ever done in their lives; 800 million people for whom the live style of a 1925 Alabama sharecropper would be a significant step up. About 50 million males can’t find a wife. China has vast amounts of land, too bad most of it isn't arable. China has three of the four largest banks in the world. But, if you think our banks assets holdings are risky …?

Russia – cleaning up in the oil market establishing wealth the czars dreamt of. Vast amounts of land, rich in natural resources. Populated by only 141 million persons. A population that will decline by 32 million in the next 40 years, almost a 25 percent drop. Alcoholism, murder, and suicide are major causes of death. Males average life span is 58 years. The only sector of the population growing in the south central Asia area populated by poor muslims. And, oh yes, China claims a third of Asia Russia is actually Chinese territory


Sounds like Russians need a little sunshine and a vacation.
China Faces Elderly Dilemma

China, the world's most populous country, is now crowned with another title: one of the world's most rapidly aging nations.

According to statistics from the National Population and Family Planning Commission (NPFPC), the country's top population policy-maker, residents who are 65 or older already accounted for 7.1 percent of the overall population at the end of 2001.

This figure is projected to shoot up dramatically in the decades immediately ahead.

The commission's own predictions indicate the proportion of the population 65 or older will surge to 24 percent by 2050.

If translated into absolute numbers, that means China will boast a staggering 400 million elders over 65 by around 2050.

Meanwhile, China's median age is set to advance substantially from about 30 in 2000 to around 39 by 2025, which will be higher than that in the United States, according to United Nations Population Division projections.

The on-going tempo of aging in China is far faster than what was witnessed in more developed regions during the past three decades.

Declining fertility rates, partly the result of national family planning policies, and prolonged life expectancies are the two main factors behind the aging crisis.

http://www.china.org.cn/english/Life/104685.htm
JJ-

Our businesses will never move to Mexico and anywhere else, we are both self employed. We are putting it all on the line and we're not scared. I take that back, if people with your "doom and gloom, hate and blame American first" attitude ever become the norm, I might have to move my businesses somewhere else.

JJ, I know one thing for sure; I'm glad I have a positive attitude and faith in God and this country. What a shame it must be to live each day as miserable as you sound. I'm glad you have this forum so you can get it out of your system, to a degree.

I will pray that you will find hapiness.



No inexperienced, leftist Obama with questionable associations for this wise family.
quote:
Originally posted by geddon97:
Wait a minute!The media tells me this is the worst economy ever!The media wouldn`t lie to me would they?Not only the media but the dems are saying it too.The gov`t must be lying again.


Hey! You know who else is saying it??? The men and women standing in line for jobs. Oh yeah and there is that big line for food stamps. Oh Oh yeah and those people that cant see a doctor because they dont have money or insurance. How about the elderly that just lost their homes after paying on them for 20 + yrs?

Oh you know their all lying too............
John Williams and his team, among others, are still compiling good data, especially on M3(money supply)

Some current audio. Scroll down to April 12th and look at the second hour to play.

A short interview.

Walter J. "John" Williams was born in 1949. He received an A.B. in Economics, cum laude, from Dartmouth College in 1971, and was awarded a M.B.A. from Dartmouth's Amos Tuck School of Business Administration in 1972, where he was named an Edward Tuck Scholar. During his career as a consulting economist, John has worked with individuals as well as Fortune 500 companies.
quote:
Originally posted by SO TIRED OF IGNORANCE:
quote:
Originally posted by geddon97:
Wait a minute!The media tells me this is the worst economy ever!The media wouldn`t lie to me would they?Not only the media but the dems are saying it too.The gov`t must be lying again.


Hey! You know who else is saying it??? The men and women standing in line for jobs. Oh yeah and there is that big line for food stamps. Oh Oh yeah and those people that cant see a doctor because they dont have money or insurance. How about the elderly that just lost their homes after paying on them for 20 + yrs?

Oh you know their all lying too............


Yeah, I drove by the unemployment office today and there was a line all the way around the front of the building...wait!!!! That was Logan's Roadhouse.. Eeker

The national unemployment average went down a tenth of a percent in April. Five percent unemployment...BLS stats
I have to agree with Sassy, until the unemployment office moves to either Logan's Roadhouse or Walmart SuperCenter they are never going to be able to service all the "poor and indigents" who are having a difficult time.
I also do not see a huge line of people waiting to see a doctor who will not see them because they have no money...geesh. The closer we get to the election the more doom and gloom the Democratic party tries to force down our throats.
A large portion of people out there who are defaulting on loans are those who bought on speculation (house flippers) or those who never paid attention to the fine print and took ARMs in order to save a few dollars on a mortgage. There is a reason why people should be aware of what they are signing when they make a big purchase. Relaxed policies at lending institutions were put in place by the government to get more people into homes, but those practices have created a mess now that those people have bitten off more than they can chew. I do want to see some assistance to these folks, but not to the people who have bought homes to flip in a violatile market. If we do that we might as well bail out all of those who have made bad stock choices, or purchased "a collector's item" off of Ebay.

Go to any restaruant tonite in Florence at 530 and try to get in, most everyone of them will be full of people. The economy is not as bad as we are being led to beleive. I too am concerned about the rising cost of gasoline, but I do not see any fix for that in the immediate future, no matter who gets into office. however, go into office and try to "tax us" into prosperity and you will see a completely different picture.
quote:
Originally posted by Sassy Kims:
quote:
Originally posted by SO TIRED OF IGNORANCE:
quote:
Originally posted by geddon97:
Wait a minute!The media tells me this is the worst economy ever!The media wouldn`t lie to me would they?Not only the media but the dems are saying it too.The gov`t must be lying again.


Hey! You know who else is saying it??? The men and women standing in line for jobs. Oh yeah and there is that big line for food stamps. Oh Oh yeah and those people that cant see a doctor because they dont have money or insurance. How about the elderly that just lost their homes after paying on them for 20 + yrs?

Oh you know their all lying too............


Yeah, I drove by the unemployment office today and there was a line all the way around the front of the building...wait!!!! That was Logan's Roadhouse.. Eeker

The national unemployment average went down a tenth of a percent in April. Five percent unemployment...BLS stats


Yeah, I was in that line. I love their steaks. Anyway - Confused

A tenth of a percent. Now thats progress! The national average household income is simply not keeping up with the inflation of prices. So whoever that 1/10 of a percent that went to work just joined the other pitiful souls working to support a family on 8 bucks an hour and no insurance. Yea. Roll Eyes
OK, I'm glad some of you are doing so well and believe that this Bush economy is just rosy. Here is a little of it from my perspective .
I have some stock from a place where I used to work. For about 20 years it did go up from time to time and would split every so often . After Clinton balanced the national budget, it started going up fast. It would double and split every 2 years. Dividends became enough to make a difference every quarter.
After Bush decided to piss away the surplus, and put our nation into debt to China, that stock made no more upward move. It now has fallen to 1/3 the value it was at the start of Bush's rule of madness, and the last quarter dividend was half of what it used to be, and next quarter it will be about 1/2 of that.
Don't try to tell me that all is just fine, this is a very large stable company, and reflects what's going on in the economy as a whole.
quote:
Originally posted by SO TIRED OF IGNORANCE:
quote:
Originally posted by Sassy Kims:
quote:
Originally posted by SO TIRED OF IGNORANCE:
quote:
Originally posted by geddon97:
Wait a minute!The media tells me this is the worst economy ever!The media wouldn`t lie to me would they?Not only the media but the dems are saying it too.The gov`t must be lying again.


Hey! You know who else is saying it??? The men and women standing in line for jobs. Oh yeah and there is that big line for food stamps. Oh Oh yeah and those people that cant see a doctor because they dont have money or insurance. How about the elderly that just lost their homes after paying on them for 20 + yrs?

Oh you know their all lying too............


Yeah, I drove by the unemployment office today and there was a line all the way around the front of the building...wait!!!! That was Logan's Roadhouse.. Eeker

The national unemployment average went down a tenth of a percent in April. Five percent unemployment...BLS stats


Yeah, I was in that line. I love their steaks. Anyway - Confused

A tenth of a percent. Now thats progress! The national average household income is simply not keeping up with the inflation of prices. So whoever that 1/10 of a percent that went to work just joined the other pitiful souls working to support a family on 8 bucks an hour and no insurance. Yea. Roll Eyes


You rushed right past the point and jumped on the socialist bandwagon. Unemployment has been at around 5 percent or less for several years. Jobs are out there. There are no "lines for foodstamps" or "lines for jobs", at least not in the sense of 1930's soup lines. Nobody's put out any signs saying, "unemployed keep moving. No jobs available".

And anybody that can't afford insurance will still receive emergency medical care. Don't think so, go to your local emergency room with an injury or illness and tell them you don't have insurance. You will still be treated.
The jobs that are being created are not good jobs. This article has an interesting discussion of how the economic slump is affecting the genders differently. A quote from the article:

"We had an expansion of jobs for home health aides, retail clerks, child-care workers. They're low-wage, they're dead-end, and they don't have any benefits."

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_20/b4084028289172.htm

Regarding the restaurant thing, look at the Food board. There's a thread about how slow restaurants have been lately.
MTLibrarian,

Somebody's got to make the lowest paycheck. Does not matter if the lowest is $5.25 per hour or $50.00 per hour, or $500.00 per hour...somebody will be making the lowest salary, and the salary they earn will not buy them all the benefits that the middle class (average wage) earns. The cost of living has, and will increase exponentially when you raise the minimum wage. If convenience store clerks made $25.00 per hour, cokes would be five dollars each, and a pack of cheese crackers would be two dollars.

Besides, everybody I know started out with a low wage, dead end job. Some worked hard and earned their way into better paying jobs with benefits and some were only willing to put forth the effort it took to stay where they were. And I know several that put forth no effort, and never started at all. I have a relative who is 54 and has never had a job, or filed an income tax return.
It's true that someone has to do the low-paying jobs, and a family can get by when one parent has a low-paying job and the other has a decent job that provides benefits like insurance for the entire family. But as that article pointed out, those decent jobs in fields like manufacturing are the ones that are disappearing. Bye bye, middle class.
quote:
Originally posted by MarianLibrarian:
It's true that someone has to do the low-paying jobs, and a family can get by when one parent has a low-paying job and the other has a decent job that provides benefits like insurance for the entire family. But as that article pointed out, those decent jobs in fields like manufacturing are the ones that are disappearing. Bye bye, middle class.


Only in a true Socialist society can you not have a "middle class".

At one time, silversmiths were the best paid trade. How many people do you know in that business anymore? Wheelwrights in the 1800's were consistantly ensured jobs. Not much call for that trade anymore. It used to take a whole fleet of bookkeepers and clerks to keep up with the business records of a corporation. With computers, now it does not take a tenth of the number of workers to do a more accurate job.

Employment in the US moved away from individual family farms and ranches in the early 1900s. It moved to cities and manufacturing. Now it's moving away from manufacturing to high tech. The workers have to move also, or face the consequences.
quote:
Originally posted by MarianLibrarian:
That's not really a fair comparison. The same items that used to be manufactured here are still being manufactured and consumed, but they're not being made by Americans anymore.


Because Americans won't do the work anymore. Or they won't do it on a basis that allows the manufacturer to make a profit. Or they are not capable of producing the quality of product that the market demands.

American's love of leisure and sitting on their haunches has cost them world dominance, specifically in the manufacturing fields.

Referring back to a previous post. Are you willing to pay $5.00 for a coke and $2.00 for a pack of crackers so a convenience store clerk can make $25.00 per hour? We are assuming no improvement in quality of the items, or quality of the service...only that the clerk is now making a wage where they can afford to live in style. I think very few people would be willing to do so.

The job is not worth that pay. No specialized training is involved. No extensive schooling is required. Relative to other occupations, it's not a hazardous job, and requires no certifications.

Unfortunately, a lot of jobs fall in that category. Lots of jobs are not worthy of high wages, because anybody can do them, and lots of people are able and available.

Many manufacturing jobs are the same. They require no great level of skill, no specialized training or certifications. So when the cost of that employee exceeds the return the employee's work is bringing in...it's time for the manufacturer to shut the job down and find a less costly solution.
quote:
Originally posted by Sassy Kims:
So when the cost of that employee exceeds the return the employee's work is bringing in...it's time for the manufacturer to shut the job down and find a less costly solution.



As the ad I heard on the radio the other day says ..."you didn't start your business too give somebody a job."
And I thought "yeah, that's the governments purpose, too make jobs". I'd bet, if I had a never-ending supply of money, and never had too worry about making a profit, I'd could have more employees too.
"And anybody that can't afford insurance will still receive emergency medical care. Don't think so, go to your local emergency room with an injury or illness and tell them you don't have insurance. You will still be treated."

You might be treated and you might not. Private hospitals have the right to refuse treatment because you can not pay. So if you get injured, you better hope they take you to a County Hospital or a City Hospital that Corporations are trying to buyout as we speak. The County Hospitals will bill you or try to setup some sort of payment arrangements, then you are turned over to a credit bureau if you fail to pay.

Speaking of jobs, you say there are plenty of jobs. Burger King, Jacks, McDonalds, store clerks, plenty of low paying jobs that don't offer benfits or medical insurance. Of course these jobs are better than nothing, but if you live a long way from your job with today's gas prices it may take your whole pay check, just to make the commute. People that are working low paying jobs are basically people that do not have an education, or do not have an education past high school. Some may be their fault, and some may be the fault of the system. Because everyone can not afford an education. Education should be a priority in America, but it seems to come last. Hell even American College Graduates in Technical fields can't get jobs. Want an example? Microsoft is still pushing for the Federal Government to allow more Visa's to foreigners that have technical degrees and backgrounds, which in turn causes Americans that are just as qualified to not get the jobs. What is the motivation behind this action? It seems Anti-American to me. Also, corporations had rather outsource labor to other countries, because they can get everything done cheaper, in turn fatening their pockets even more. How much money is enough?
quote:
Originally posted by JJPAUL:
"And anybody that can't afford insurance will still receive emergency medical care. Don't think so, go to your local emergency room with an injury or illness and tell them you don't have insurance. You will still be treated."

You might be treated and you might not. Private hospitals have the right to refuse treatment because you can not pay. So if you get injured, you better hope they take you to a County Hospital or a City Hospital that Corporations are trying to buyout as we speak. The County Hospitals will bill you or try to setup some sort of payment arrangements, then you are turned over to a credit bureau if you fail to pay.

Speaking of jobs, you say there are plenty of jobs. Burger King, Jacks, McDonalds, store clerks, plenty of low paying jobs that don't offer benfits or medical insurance. Of course these jobs are better than nothing, but if you live a long way from your job with today's gas prices it may take your whole pay check, just to make the commute. People that are working low paying jobs are basically people that do not have an education, or do not have an education past high school. Some may be their fault, and some may be the fault of the system. Because everyone can not afford an education. Education should be a priority in America, but it seems to come last. Hell even American College Graduates in Technical fields can't get jobs. Want an example? Microsoft is still pushing for the Federal Government to allow more Visa's to foreigners that have technical degrees and backgrounds, which in turn causes Americans that are just as qualified to not get the jobs. What is the motivation behind this action? It seems Anti-American to me. Also, corporations had rather outsource labor to other countries, because they can get everything done cheaper, in turn fatening their pockets even more. How much money is enough?


If you have a life threatening illness or injury, you will be treated. In most cases, you will be seen by a doctor if you show up. Even private hospitals must treat life threatening illnesses or injuries, unless it is reasonable to arrange transportation to a hospital that can better serve the patient.

As far as being billed...you received the service. Why shouldn't you receive the bill. Personal responsibility is pretty ill here lately, but it's not dead. If you owe a bill, you should pay it. $10.00 a month if necessary, but you should pay what you owe.

Quite a few good paying jobs are available to people who want to commit themselves to being qualified for them. If you are a high school dropout, or a druggie, or an ex con, yep...the hamburger joint is pretty much where it's gonna end for you. But with a little forethought, and some planning, there are numerous careers waiting for qualified workers. And not all of them require college, but it never hurts.

If the Americans were as qualified as the foreigners, and willing to work for the same wages, why would Microsoft go to the trouble to even try to get Visa restrictions relaxed. It's because lazy Americans won't work, and expect huge salaries.

The American worker needs to reevaluate and become competitive with the rest of the world...or learn to ask "do you want fries with that?"
quote:
Originally posted by Sassy Kims:
quote:
Originally posted by SO TIRED OF IGNORANCE:
quote:
Originally posted by Sassy Kims:
quote:
Originally posted by SO TIRED OF IGNORANCE:
quote:
Originally posted by geddon97:
Wait a minute!The media tells me this is the worst economy ever!The media wouldn`t lie to me would they?Not only the media but the dems are saying it too.The gov`t must be lying again.


Hey! You know who else is saying it??? The men and women standing in line for jobs. Oh yeah and there is that big line for food stamps. Oh Oh yeah and those people that cant see a doctor because they dont have money or insurance. How about the elderly that just lost their homes after paying on them for 20 + yrs?

Oh you know their all lying too............


Yeah, I drove by the unemployment office today and there was a line all the way around the front of the building...wait!!!! That was Logan's Roadhouse.. Eeker

The national unemployment average went down a tenth of a percent in April. Five percent unemployment...BLS stats


Yeah, I was in that line. I love their steaks. Anyway - Confused

A tenth of a percent. Now thats progress! The national average household income is simply not keeping up with the inflation of prices. So whoever that 1/10 of a percent that went to work just joined the other pitiful souls working to support a family on 8 bucks an hour and no insurance. Yea. Roll Eyes


You rushed right past the point and jumped on the socialist bandwagon. Unemployment has been at around 5 percent or less for several years. Jobs are out there. There are no "lines for foodstamps" or "lines for jobs", at least not in the sense of 1930's soup lines. Nobody's put out any signs saying, "unemployed keep moving. No jobs available".

And anybody that can't afford insurance will still receive emergency medical care. Don't think so, go to your local emergency room with an injury or illness and tell them you don't have insurance. You will still be treated.


Hell, I went to my local emergency room WITH BC/BS insurance and it STILL took over 5 hours to be treated and I had a serious illness. So sell that crap to somebody who's buyin - cause it sounds like craziness to me.

If I chose to bury my head, become a selfish and self consumed human being, I could be happy I have a good job and PRETEND that everything is ok. But it is not. I am not waiting until there is a line coming down the street from the Salvation Army to recognize that the economy is in real trouble.
quote:
Originally posted by Sassy Kims:
quote:
Originally posted by JJPAUL:
"And anybody that can't afford insurance will still receive emergency medical care. Don't think so, go to your local emergency room with an injury or illness and tell them you don't have insurance. You will still be treated."

You might be treated and you might not. Private hospitals have the right to refuse treatment because you can not pay. So if you get injured, you better hope they take you to a County Hospital or a City Hospital that Corporations are trying to buyout as we speak. The County Hospitals will bill you or try to setup some sort of payment arrangements, then you are turned over to a credit bureau if you fail to pay.

Speaking of jobs, you say there are plenty of jobs. Burger King, Jacks, McDonalds, store clerks, plenty of low paying jobs that don't offer benfits or medical insurance. Of course these jobs are better than nothing, but if you live a long way from your job with today's gas prices it may take your whole pay check, just to make the commute. People that are working low paying jobs are basically people that do not have an education, or do not have an education past high school. Some may be their fault, and some may be the fault of the system. Because everyone can not afford an education. Education should be a priority in America, but it seems to come last. Hell even American College Graduates in Technical fields can't get jobs. Want an example? Microsoft is still pushing for the Federal Government to allow more Visa's to foreigners that have technical degrees and backgrounds, which in turn causes Americans that are just as qualified to not get the jobs. What is the motivation behind this action? It seems Anti-American to me. Also, corporations had rather outsource labor to other countries, because they can get everything done cheaper, in turn fatening their pockets even more. How much money is enough?


If you have a life threatening illness or injury, you will be treated. In most cases, you will be seen by a doctor if you show up. Even private hospitals must treat life threatening illnesses or injuries, unless it is reasonable to arrange transportation to a hospital that can better serve the patient.

As far as being billed...you received the service. Why shouldn't you receive the bill. Personal responsibility is pretty ill here lately, but it's not dead. If you owe a bill, you should pay it. $10.00 a month if necessary, but you should pay what you owe.

Quite a few good paying jobs are available to people who want to commit themselves to being qualified for them. If you are a high school dropout, or a druggie, or an ex con, yep...the hamburger joint is pretty much where it's gonna end for you. But with a little forethought, and some planning, there are numerous careers waiting for qualified workers. And not all of them require college, but it never hurts.

If the Americans were as qualified as the foreigners, and willing to work for the same wages, why would Microsoft go to the trouble to even try to get Visa restrictions relaxed. It's because lazy Americans won't work, and expect huge salaries.

The American worker needs to reevaluate and become competitive with the rest of the world...or learn to ask "do you want fries with that?"


Did you not read in the news where illegals were working in NY for 5 bucks an hour for one company? Are you kidding me?? I dont even see how you can live in NY for under 100K a year.

Americans deserve better than that. They deserve better than to live under the radar on government assistance without hope of healthcare or higher education for their children.

The problem is not paying the $10.00 a month at the emergency room. No problem. The problem is when a young family has little ones. They get sick every month or so. A doctors visit is $75 if you can get in with one. Are you going to rack up a $1000 dollar emergency room visit every time one gets sick? Are you going to sit in the ER with a baby all night when you have to go to work?? How about the $150 dollar prescription for an ear infection?? This is real life. You can minimize it down to a $10 dollar problem. Try living on $1000 bucks a month for a family four with gas and food prices like they are and then take out a bill like that for a illness. I cannot understand how people can be so blind not to see its impossible
quote:
Originally posted by SO TIRED OF IGNORANCE:
quote:
Originally posted by Sassy Kims:
quote:
Originally posted by JJPAUL:
"And anybody that can't afford insurance will still receive emergency medical care. Don't think so, go to your local emergency room with an injury or illness and tell them you don't have insurance. You will still be treated."

You might be treated and you might not. Private hospitals have the right to refuse treatment because you can not pay. So if you get injured, you better hope they take you to a County Hospital or a City Hospital that Corporations are trying to buyout as we speak. The County Hospitals will bill you or try to setup some sort of payment arrangements, then you are turned over to a credit bureau if you fail to pay.

Speaking of jobs, you say there are plenty of jobs. Burger King, Jacks, McDonalds, store clerks, plenty of low paying jobs that don't offer benfits or medical insurance. Of course these jobs are better than nothing, but if you live a long way from your job with today's gas prices it may take your whole pay check, just to make the commute. People that are working low paying jobs are basically people that do not have an education, or do not have an education past high school. Some may be their fault, and some may be the fault of the system. Because everyone can not afford an education. Education should be a priority in America, but it seems to come last. Hell even American College Graduates in Technical fields can't get jobs. Want an example? Microsoft is still pushing for the Federal Government to allow more Visa's to foreigners that have technical degrees and backgrounds, which in turn causes Americans that are just as qualified to not get the jobs. What is the motivation behind this action? It seems Anti-American to me. Also, corporations had rather outsource labor to other countries, because they can get everything done cheaper, in turn fatening their pockets even more. How much money is enough?


If you have a life threatening illness or injury, you will be treated. In most cases, you will be seen by a doctor if you show up. Even private hospitals must treat life threatening illnesses or injuries, unless it is reasonable to arrange transportation to a hospital that can better serve the patient.

As far as being billed...you received the service. Why shouldn't you receive the bill. Personal responsibility is pretty ill here lately, but it's not dead. If you owe a bill, you should pay it. $10.00 a month if necessary, but you should pay what you owe.

Quite a few good paying jobs are available to people who want to commit themselves to being qualified for them. If you are a high school dropout, or a druggie, or an ex con, yep...the hamburger joint is pretty much where it's gonna end for you. But with a little forethought, and some planning, there are numerous careers waiting for qualified workers. And not all of them require college, but it never hurts.

If the Americans were as qualified as the foreigners, and willing to work for the same wages, why would Microsoft go to the trouble to even try to get Visa restrictions relaxed. It's because lazy Americans won't work, and expect huge salaries.

The American worker needs to reevaluate and become competitive with the rest of the world...or learn to ask "do you want fries with that?"


Did you not read in the news where illegals were working in NY for 5 bucks an hour for one company? Are you kidding me?? I dont even see how you can live in NY for under 100K a year.

Americans deserve better than that. They deserve better than to live under the radar on government assistance without hope of healthcare or higher education for their children.

The problem is not paying the $10.00 a month at the emergency room. No problem. The problem is when a young family has little ones. They get sick every month or so. A doctors visit is $75 if you can get in with one. Are you going to rack up a $1000 dollar emergency room visit every time one gets sick? Are you going to sit in the ER with a baby all night when you have to go to work?? How about the $150 dollar prescription for an ear infection?? This is real life. You can minimize it down to a $10 dollar problem. Try living on $1000 bucks a month for a family four with gas and food prices like they are and then take out a bill like that for a illness. I cannot understand how people can be so blind not to see its impossible


I agree with your statement as to not understanding how anybody can live in NYC on $5.00 per hour, until you think about the concept of 20 or so of the illegals living in the same rental property. They don't demand a million dollar house and two new cars and a ski boat and membership at the country club. They've cut their needs to the basics...food, shelter and clothing. So they're able to survive on that $5.00 per hour even in a hostile city like New York.

Why do Americans deserve better? What makes them deserving of anything they don't earn by the "sweat of their brow"? Birthright? We have squandered that away. Superior work ethic? Obviously not or the commercial entities would be beating a path to our door to set up plants and work forces in the United States instead of India and China. Deserve has nothing to do with it.

What you are asking for as far as medical treatment is charity. For people to not be responsible for their debts. Medicine is expensive. Research, development, and testing of new drugs are all expensive. Training a doctor is expensive. Hospitals and clinics are expensive. Should the companies that pay for finding and bringing to market new drugs, and those that build hospitals and clinics not be compensated for their services? How about doctors? Should we tell them "yeah, it cost a half million to get you through school, and you'll have to spend hours each year getting up to date training, and carry malpractice insurance that will cost you a fortune, but you can't make more than minimum wage?" How many people would go through what it takes to become a doctor then?

It's not impossible to survive under the circumstances you've listed. I did it for years, and hundreds of thousands do it every day now. Would I like it to be better? Yep, but not at the expense of driving the medical profession or the insurance industry out of business. Because if you mandate that they have to treat or pay for treatment without just and due compensation, they will fold and we all will do without.
quote:
Originally posted by Sassy Kims:
I agree with your statement as to not understanding how anybody can live in NYC on $5.00 per hour, until you think about the concept of 20 or so of the illegals living in the same rental property. They don't demand a million dollar house and two new cars and a ski boat and membership at the country club. They've cut their needs to the basics...food, shelter and clothing. So they're able to survive on that $5.00 per hour even in a hostile city like New York.

Why do Americans deserve better? What makes them deserving of anything they don't earn by the "sweat of their brow"? Birthright? We have squandered that away. Superior work ethic? Obviously not or the commercial entities would be beating a path to our door to set up plants and work forces in the United States instead of India and China. Deserve has nothing to do with it.

What you are asking for as far as medical treatment is charity. For people to not be responsible for their debts. Medicine is expensive. Research, development, and testing of new drugs are all expensive. Training a doctor is expensive. Hospitals and clinics are expensive. Should the companies that pay for finding and bringing to market new drugs, and those that build hospitals and clinics not be compensated for their services? How about doctors? Should we tell them "yeah, it cost a half million to get you through school, and you'll have to spend hours each year getting up to date training, and carry malpractice insurance that will cost you a fortune, but you can't make more than minimum wage?" How many people would go through what it takes to become a doctor then?

It's not impossible to survive under the circumstances you've listed. I did it for years, and hundreds of thousands do it every day now. Would I like it to be better? Yep, but not at the expense of driving the medical profession or the insurance industry out of business. Because if you mandate that they have to treat or pay for treatment without just and due compensation, they will fold and we all will do without.


I think you will also agree that there is a reasonable middle ground between 20 people living in a house and a million dollar house. We are talking about hard working honest people that just want to afford the basics for working a 40 hour week. Not extravagant homes or boats but also not have to move in with half their family.

Why do Americans deserve better? Because we are Americans. I have no problem with immigration. But the burden ILLEGAL immigrants put on Legal United States Citizens is enormous. What job in the US do you think is so unworthy of a decent wage? A wage that you can do the basics for a family?
quote:
Originally posted by excelman:
OK, I'm glad some of you are doing so well and believe that this Bush economy is just rosy. Here is a little of it from my perspective .
I have some stock from a place where I used to work. For about 20 years it did go up from time to time and would split every so often . After Clinton balanced the national budget, it started going up fast. It would double and split every 2 years. Dividends became enough to make a difference every quarter.
After Bush decided to piss away the surplus, and put our nation into debt to China, that stock made no more upward move. It now has fallen to 1/3 the value it was at the start of Bush's rule of madness, and the last quarter dividend was half of what it used to be, and next quarter it will be about 1/2 of that.
Don't try to tell me that all is just fine, this is a very large stable company, and reflects what's going on in the economy as a whole.



Gas Prices - UP
Canned goods - UP
Milk - UP
Dairy products - UP
Meat - UP
Baby Food - UP
Baby Formula - UP
China's clothing - UP
Mexico's Veggies - UP
Coffee - UP
Telephone Service - UP
Television Service - UP (especially in 2009)

But no worries people!!! I just heard this week that the India-owned Convenience Stores and Motels are hiring at least ONE American per property.

If that fails, there is always Fast Food or Restuarants.

JOB MARKET - DOWN!!! IN THIS AREA.

National averages don't help us at all, in fact, it is ludricious to tell someone who just got laid off about National averages. Somewhere during the last eight years "SOME" Americans seems to have left their hearts behind.

OH, and let's not forget that people are losing medical benefits left and right while Corporate America takes it away from them, but no matter, those without heart is like Scrooge, "if they die, so be it".

Roll Eyes
quote:
I think you will also agree that there is a reasonable middle ground between 20 people living in a house and a million dollar house. We are talking about hard working honest people that just want to afford the basics for working a 40 hour week. Not extravagant homes or boats but also not have to move in with half their family.

Why do Americans deserve better? Because we are Americans. I have no problem with immigration. But the burden ILLEGAL immigrants put on Legal United States Citizens is enormous. What job in the US do you think is so unworthy of a decent wage? A wage that you can do the basics for a family?


I applaud that you recognized I exagerated the figures for the purpose of sensationalism...although not by much. I have been in several houses occupied by both legal and illegal immigrants. One thing they have in common is that large numbers of them live in the same domicile to reduce living costs. Something that Americans abhor, and poke fun at when we find somebody living with relatives. They do it because it's cost effective, and are willing to give up a modicum of privacy to further their plans for financial security. And there is no doubt that, given the state of the housing finance industry, lots of Americans have been buying and financing bigger and more expensive houses than they could actually afford. It's happened here in North Alabama, and across America.

Your views on why Americans deserve better are scary. They smack of entitlement. No one deserves special privileges because of who they are. I deeply agree with your statement on illegal immigrants. They have placed an enormous financial burden on all of us, and should be deported immediately. But go back and check the preamble to the Declaration of Independence again...it says "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, not that you are guaranteed to be happy, or have all the things you want. Feeling that you are "owed" or "due" anything just because you were born in the United States is entitlement, and it's wrong.

The term decent wage is subjective. I wouldn't pay more than minimum wage to somebody who's only skill was, say, untrained manual labor. Wages should increase with experience, training and education.

And it's irresponsible for anybody to start a family without being willing to do what it takes to provide for them, whether it be two or more jobs (which I have done) or getting more training or education to better themselves (which I have done also).
Well, then you and I will agree to disagree. I think that if a man/woman is an American Citizen and digs a ditch 40 hours a week to provide for his family, then he deserves to go to a doctor when he is sick and feed his family.

I have first hand knowledge of a 10 member family living in a 2 bedrooom apartment, so pardon me if I think that is outrageous. I do not even think that children can function to the point of getting homework and getting a good nights sleep in those conditions. Thats neither here nor there, just a side note.

Furthermore, my thoughts that sound like entitlement, are showing favoritism only towards legal vs. illegal citizens. I do not think that a man can work 20 hours a week and stay drunk the rest of the time and America should foot the bill. With todays prices and illegals driving down the price on labor. I have no doubt that jobs Americans use to do to provide a decent wage, are no longer available. The owner is seeing a huge profit but in the long run is just hurting us all. Passing on the higher cost of health and auto insurance at minimum.
quote:
Originally posted by SO TIRED OF IGNORANCE:
Well, then you and I will agree to disagree. I think that if a man/woman is an American Citizen and digs a ditch 40 hours a week to provide for his family, then he deserves to go to a doctor when he is sick and feed his family.

I have first hand knowledge of a 10 member family living in a 2 bedrooom apartment, so pardon me if I think that is outrageous. I do not even think that children can function to the point of getting homework and getting a good nights sleep in those conditions. Thats neither here nor there, just a side note.

Furthermore, my thoughts that sound like entitlement, are showing favoritism only towards legal vs. illegal citizens. I do not think that a man can work 20 hours a week and stay drunk the rest of the time and America should foot the bill. With todays prices and illegals driving down the price on labor. I have no doubt that jobs Americans use to do to provide a decent wage, are no longer available. The owner is seeing a huge profit but in the long run is just hurting us all. Passing on the higher cost of health and auto insurance at minimum.


Although we disagree on the inherent value of unskilled laborer armed with a $20.00 shovel versus the value of a doctor with eight or more years of college, medical school and residency and a multimillion dollar hospital, we seem to be on the same page concerning illegal aliens.

I have absolutely no sympathy for illegal aliens. I do not want a single tax dollar used to support any part of their lifestyle. The only tax money that should be spent on them is Immigration Enforcement. I personally think that each one should be arrested, fingerprinted, photographed, dna sample taken and recorded, then deported. If they are found inside the US borders again, it should be at least a ten year prison term at hard labor.
The reason that you have to wait 5 hours in an emergency room to see a docotr is because the ERs are being flooded with people who misuse the resource at hand. The fact that you had insurance makes no difference to the people who are seeing patients, they see them based on the degree of the emergency. ER were not meant to be treated like docotrs office were colds and aches can be treated relatively quickly and the patients can get in and out ina timely fashion. Places like Med Plus are great for things like that. The ER should be used like they were intended, for emergencies, but for the past couple of years it has become a glorified primary care office, and people misusue it.
If you have a true emergency (car accident, leg in a chainsaw, open broken fracture, etc) then the ER will see you and they may ask if you have insurance but they will not refuse to see you. They can't.
As to the young family with kids, there is aninsuarnce program in Alabama for those people (AlaKids or something like that) that will take care of those expenses. There are programs available if you look and ask for them.
I know several physicians in the Shoals who have not been paid by Medicaid for the past four months. People wonder why doctors are refusing to accept new patients with Medicaid, and they never hear the truth. Docotrs have expenses (buidlings, suppliess, utilites, and employees) and how are they supposed to pay their bills when one of their biggest payors can refuse to pay them for months at a time? It is a disgrace, but more government intervention is not going to fix it.
The economy may be slow, but we have had years of growth, it was bound to slow down. Clinton did not balance the budget, he shifted monies from somewhere else (namely Social Security) to help balance his budget, and he raised taxes. No nation can ever be taxed in to prosperity, which is what we are seeing now. Sooner or later it will come back to haunt you. Add the costs of the war, increased social programs, and increasing price of fuel and you have a disaster in the making.

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