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The topic of reincarnation was brought up by jimi yesterday. He is an atheist or seems to be yet believes in reincarnation. So far, a few atheists have said it's not a big deal because as long as a "GOD" is not involved, then it does not violate the rules of atheism:the belief there is no "GOD". They use Buddhism as an example: an atheist religion.

 

I have surfed the net and found this has been mentioned at a number of sites. I would say the majority of atheists would say while no "GOD" is involved, it does require supernatural events to occur at the moment of death. Now if an atheist is going to believe in supernatural powers , then that throws out their argument against a "GOD". It also appeared that most equated reincarnation with a belief in ghosts, the paranormal in general, and a belief in a soul. 

 

Now if a soul is required for reincarnation, and atheists have said there is no soul as that would be a religious concept, then Buddhism and other religions of reincarnation are indeed NOT atheistic.

 

  Since the 'evidence' for reincarnation is all anecdotal: stories of past memories, that deja vu feeling, sessions with doctors, etc.. then it would follow that religious people having moments of "GOD" intervening in their lives would have the same weight on their claim of there being a "GOD".

 

In Buddhism, the point of existence to to follow the 8 proper paths of enlightenment so the soul or consciousness can reside in Nirvana at the end of it's physical existence. If one follows them correctly, they reach the top level or the Buddha level. Only the Buddha level enters into Nirvana.

 

This parallels the followers of a "GOD" based relgion as thoses who follow the path laid out in their religious text also enter into Nirvana, or Heaven in the Christian religion and Paradise in Islam.


Now this has caused myself and a few other religious people to question how an athiest could believe in reincarnation. Since they require scientific proof of a "GOD" and have laughed at the propects of ghosts, and the only evidence for this is peronal experiences, forbidden as the proof of "GOD", how does an atheist make this rather supernatural, no evidenced based, assumption?

 

Last edited by b50m
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Now this has caused myself and a few other religious people to question how an athiest could believe in reincarnation. Since they require scientific proof of a "GOD" and have laughed at the propects of ghosts, and the only evidence for this is peronal experiences, forbidden as the proof of "GOD", how does an atheist make this rather supernatural, no evidenced based, assumption?

 

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I don't know why you think atheists should be concerned with what buddhists believe. If you have a point then once again I'm missing it. I don't know much about buddhism, but from what little I read they can either believe in a god or not. I could be wrong.  Do they believe they have a soul? I don't know, don't care. I saw it called a "spirit" but again, don't know don't care. Some christians say that a person's "soul" enters the body when they're born and leaves when they die, others say atheists don't have souls. How you came to the conclusion that all atheists believe in reincarnation escapes me. It's like you've gone "aha, a flaw in atheism". I don't believe in it, no other atheist I know believes in it. If someone calls themself a "buddhist atheist" it is up to them to explain it, not me or any other atheist I know.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Now this has caused myself and a few other religious people to question how an athiest could believe in reincarnation. Since they require scientific proof of a "GOD" and have laughed at the propects of ghosts, and the only evidence for this is peronal experiences, forbidden as the proof of "GOD", how does an atheist make this rather supernatural, no evidenced based, assumption?

 

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I don't know why you think atheists should be concerned with what buddhists believe. If you have a point then once again I'm missing it. I don't know much about buddhism, but from what little I read they can either believe in a god or not. I could be wrong.  Do they believe they have a soul? I don't know, don't care. I saw it called a "spirit" but again, don't know don't care. Some christians say that a person's "soul" enters the body when they're born and leaves when they die, others say atheists don't have souls. How you came to the conclusion that all atheists believe in reincarnation escapes me. It's like you've gone "aha, a flaw in atheism". I don't believe in it, no other atheist I know believes in it. If someone calls themself a "buddhist atheist" it is up to them to explain it, not me or any other atheist I know.

Best, I read through her post twice and do not understand your response.  She did not say atheists should be concerned with what Buddhists believe nor did she say they all believe in reincarnation.  Maybe you missed where this was brought up on another thread?  She's responding to that.

You still don't seem to get the 'supernatural' part. If reincarnation is supernatural, and an atheist believes in that, then they believe in the supernatural

 

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I got it, that's why I ask why you thought atheists believed in reincarnation. I don't, I don't know anyone, atheist or otherwise that does believe in it. If buddhists do, and if some of those that do believe in reincarnation call themselves atheists it's up to them to explain. You're asking atheists why buddhists believe in it. I ask why you would think we'd know.

Best, I read through her post twice and do not understand your response. She did not say atheists should be concerned with what Buddhists believe nor did she say they all believe in reincarnation. Maybe you missed where this was brought up on another thread? She's responding to that.

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So far, a few atheists have said it's not a big deal because as long as a "GOD" is not involved, then it does not violate the rules of atheism:the belief there is no "GOD". They use Buddhism as an example: an atheist religion.

 

I have surfed the net and found this has been mentioned at a number of sites. I would say the majority of atheists would say while no "GOD" is involved, it does require supernatural events to occur at the moment of death. Now if an atheist is going to believe in supernatural powers , then that throws out their argument against a "GOD". It also appeared that most equated reincarnation with a belief in ghosts, the paranormal in general, and a belief in a soul.

 

 

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I don't remember using buddhism as an atheist religion. I posted from a site that mentioned some buddhists were atheists AFTER his post, and got the impression that buddhism doesn't exclude either atheism or a belief.  I have no idea what they believe aside from that impression.

If a person (let's call him Jimi...lol...was going to try not say his name but it was just too absurd) says they are an Atheist and they believe in reincarnation, perhaps their belief in reincarnation is from a purely scientific standpoint.  I saw an interesting documentary some time back regarding the possibility of memories being passed through DNA.  I also remember reading that some individuals under hypnosis have given strangely accurate info on people's lives about which they should know nothing.  This could lead someone to believe in reincarnation I suppose...dunno.

OK Best, since you are confused, lets go with this.

 

A poster, Jimi, said that reincarnation had more evidence than God. And gave the impression he believed it existed. The only evidence is anecdotal. It would require a belief in the powers of a supernatural being to believe in reincarnation since one would be required for the 'transfer'.

Unob said that Buddhism was an atheist religion. Buddhism is not necessary for the point, only explaining the idea of reincarnation.

 

Now how does an atheist believe in a supernatural power while laughing at the idea of GOD?

One could compare NDE's to those who "remember" past lives under hypnosis. I think that NDE's are much more LIKELY to someday be proven as fact - not just oxygen starvation as most altheists assert.

 

Genetic memory on the other hand, is different. Ever watch a dog go around and around in circles before lying down? There is an ancient instinct that makes them do that. (Some have surmised that they are checking for snakes and other nasties. Others have said they are just "making a nest" to sleep in.) But that instinct is passed down through the dog's genes. It is real and I don't think anyone would deny that. It has nothing to do with reincarnation.

Hi all,

 

The question posed in B50's title "Reincarnation: No Religion Required" is erroneous in one major sense -- there is NO ONE who does not have a religion, i.e., a belief system. 

 

True, there are world religions which insist upon a belief in reincarnation -- and there are others, such as atheism, etc., which leave this belief as an option. 

 

However, the Bible teaches absolutely that reincarnation is false and is of the occult religions.  Given that, I will stay with the Bible in my belief that we all die once -- and then we face the judgments (Hebrews 9:27) -- either the Believer's Judgment (Bema Seat Judgment) or the Great White Throne Judgment for all non-believers, regardless of their religion.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Now how does an atheist believe in a supernatural power while laughing at the idea of GOD?

 

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And once more I say you'd have to ask someone that says they're an atheist but believes in a supernatural power to explain it to you. I don't believe in supernatural powers or gods, so I can't help you.

quote:   Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
quote: Originally Posted by O No!:

One could compare NDE's to those who "remember" past lives under hypnosis. I think that NDE's are much more LIKELY to someday be proven as fact - not just oxygen starvation as most altheists scientists assert.

Corrected that for you.

Hi Crusty,

 

Actually, you should have written that you corrected it for your atheistic-leaning mindset, not for accuracy.   I believe O has it right.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

(has that joke been told already?)

 

The near death one has been told over and over.  The white throne one is, ewwwwwww, new.

LOL Crusty!

 

Ya but it beats having to talk to Ralph on The Big White Phone.

 

I've often wondered myself how someone could claim to disbelieve god and then tell me about ghosties and such.

 

No makey sense....

Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
Originally Posted by O No!:

One could compare NDE's to those who "remember" past lives under hypnosis. I think that NDE's are much more LIKELY to someday be proven as fact - not just oxygen starvation as most altheists scientists assert.

  ____________

Corrected that for you.

---------------------------------------------------

So tell me how all those predictions that are made by NDE's

and are documented before they happen are possible.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Now how does an atheist believe in a supernatural power while laughing at the idea of GOD?

 

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And once more I say you'd have to ask someone that says they're an atheist but believes in a supernatural power to explain it to you. I don't believe in supernatural powers or gods, so I can't help you.

That's all I wanted to know. When I put up this thread, I just wanted the atheists to explain how that would be possible. So far,  you are the only one who commented.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
quote: Originally Posted by O No!:

One could compare NDE's to those who "remember" past lives under hypnosis. I think that NDE's are much more LIKELY to someday be proven as fact - not just oxygen starvation as most altheists scientists assert.

Corrected that for you.

Hi Crusty,

 

Actually, you should have written that you corrected it for your atheistic-leaning mindset, not for accuracy.   I believe O has it right.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

____________

As usual, when it comes to science you have your head stuck in the Great White Throne.

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
Originally Posted by O No!:

One could compare NDE's to those who "remember" past lives under hypnosis. I think that NDE's are much more LIKELY to someday be proven as fact - not just oxygen starvation as most altheists scientists assert.

  ____________

Corrected that for you.

---------------------------------------------------

So tell me how all those predictions that are made by NDE's

and are documented before they happen are possible.

________________

Haven't seen any of those.  That near death experiences are real is a given, just as unidentified flying objects are real.  All have rational, non-heavenly explanations. 

Crusty, you just reminded me of the character Bones on the TV show Bones.  She must always have a rational, non-spiritual explanation.  I do love that sometimes she doesn't get one & every once in a while has to admit that something else it going on.  Great show.

 

...and now back to your regularly scheduled program...

"She" doesn't get it or the writers write the script so there is no explanation? Very easy to do. Anyone can tell a story and make the ending, events in it, only explained by claiming supernatural powers at work. (The bible for instance) I remember all the stories my grandmother use to tell us and one involved a man fighting an alligator. He killed it by reaching his hand down the gator's throat, grabbing the inside of it's tail and pulling it inside out.

Last edited by Bestworking

 In one episode, from what I recall, Bones has a connection to her deceased Mother's jewelry.  I may have to watch this episode again to give you the whole story...sorry.   She loses the earring at some point in the show & it's the conversation they have when it's returned to her.  I am watching them on Netflix...first season...this episode involves a voodoo priest (think that's the right term) murdering oh so yuckily - have to turn away in the disgusting parts.  I'll watch it again (not a problem as I LOVE that show...haha) and get back to you.

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
Originally Posted by O No!:

One could compare NDE's to those who "remember" past lives under hypnosis. I think that NDE's are much more LIKELY to someday be proven as fact - not just oxygen starvation as most altheists scientists assert.

  ____________

Corrected that for you.

---------------------------------------------------

So tell me how all those predictions that are made by NDE's

and are documented before they happen are possible.

They aren't possible because they didn't happen.

Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
 

So tell me how all those predictions that are made by NDE's

and are documented before they happen are possible.

===================================

They aren't possible because they didn't happen.

====================================

The overwheming evidence from Jimi just cleared that up.

.

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
 

So tell me how all those predictions that are made by NDE's

and are documented before they happen are possible.

===================================

They aren't possible because they didn't happen.

====================================

The overwheming evidence from Jimi just cleared that up.

.

Is it possible for invictus to ever post something that is not total BS?

There is no evidence, so far.

An atheist doesn't believe there is a God or gods running everything or in charge, saving or destroying things or creatures.  Some believe nothing else but hard factual and tangible things are true, but some think there is more to the universe than we can see but it isn't related to a God.  There are forms of energy not seen with our eyes and we feel some of them easily and some we can learn to feel, see, or use for various reasons.  Does that come back after we die? There are many people who feel their departed loved ones nearby or see them after death...many, many people who detect things that strict science may not be able to explain at this moment, but each person has a tolerance for thinking those things are real and it isn't related to a belief in God. I have experienced many things in my life that I have no reason to think relate to any form of a God, but if I explained what I sensed some would think it was from their frame of reference or say it isn't real because of their frame of reference.

 

So if we are honest and realize that no two people believe exactly alike and that we are all biased one way or another we can let go of I AM RIGHT and YOU ARE WRONG AND I NEED TO PROVE YOU WRONG.  

Originally Posted by frog:

An atheist doesn't believe there is a God or gods running everything or in charge, saving or destroying things or creatures.  Some believe nothing else but hard factual and tangible things are true, but some think there is more to the universe than we can see but it isn't related to a God.  There are forms of energy not seen with our eyes and we feel some of them easily and some we can learn to feel, see, or use for various reasons.  Does that come back after we die? There are many people who feel their departed loved ones nearby or see them after death...many, many people who detect things that strict science may not be able to explain at this moment, but each person has a tolerance for thinking those things are real and it isn't related to a belief in God. I have experienced many things in my life that I have no reason to think relate to any form of a God, but if I explained what I sensed some would think it was from their frame of reference or say it isn't real because of their frame of reference.

 

So if we are honest and realize that no two people believe exactly alike and that we are all biased one way or another we can let go of I AM RIGHT and YOU ARE WRONG AND I NEED TO PROVE YOU WRONG.  

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I don't give a damm what you or the coward df believes or any other atheist.

You people are the ones telling me I'm wrong, all the time, for the most I

enjoy talking to atheist. But what DF did was out of line, no one told me he

own Florence. Don't whine about what I post DF, It's not for you or any

one else who doesn't want to read it.

Some of you smug *******s are really something.

 

 


Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by frog:

An atheist doesn't believe there is a God or gods running everything or in charge, saving or destroying things or creatures.  Some believe nothing else but hard factual and tangible things are true, but some think there is more to the universe than we can see but it isn't related to a God.  There are forms of energy not seen with our eyes and we feel some of them easily and some we can learn to feel, see, or use for various reasons.  Does that come back after we die? There are many people who feel their departed loved ones nearby or see them after death...many, many people who detect things that strict science may not be able to explain at this moment, but each person has a tolerance for thinking those things are real and it isn't related to a belief in God. I have experienced many things in my life that I have no reason to think relate to any form of a God, but if I explained what I sensed some would think it was from their frame of reference or say it isn't real because of their frame of reference.

 

So if we are honest and realize that no two people believe exactly alike and that we are all biased one way or another we can let go of I AM RIGHT and YOU ARE WRONG AND I NEED TO PROVE YOU WRONG.  

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I don't give a damm what you or the coward df believes or any other atheist.

You people are the ones telling me I'm wrong, all the time, for the most I

enjoy talking to atheist. But what DF did was out of line, no one told me he

own Florence. Don't whine about what I post DF, It's not for you or any

one else who doesn't want to read it.

Some of you smug *******s are really something.

 

 


SIgh.  I was agreeing that nobody needed to be rude to anyone else and that no one can be absolutely right anyway...since I am not sure who DF is I am lost anyway.  And I never said anyone owns Florence and that was my point.  We're all doing our own thing and we come together here.  We can make it a pleasant experience for everyone and stay out of others' faces or make this a bid sandbox full of people kicking it at other.  That is all I was saying.

 

I'm not sure if you were referring to me as being one of the smug ones you mentioned, but really all I was trying to say was that I sure don't have all the answers and just like to drop by to chat a bit.  If I came across stronger than usual tonight it is because our power went off before 5am this morning and we were all up and cranky all day.  it came on about 6:30, but by then the fighting had begun..lol.

 

So all I wantedt is to hear friendly words and relax.  Anything else is too tiring at this point..lol.

Originally Posted by frog:

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by frog:

An atheist doesn't believe there is a God or gods running everything or in charge, saving or destroying things or creatures.  Some believe nothing else but hard factual and tangible things are true, but some think there is more to the universe than we can see but it isn't related to a God.  There are forms of energy not seen with our eyes and we feel some of them easily and some we can learn to feel, see, or use for various reasons.  Does that come back after we die? There are many people who feel their departed loved ones nearby or see them after death...many, many people who detect things that strict science may not be able to explain at this moment, but each person has a tolerance for thinking those things are real and it isn't related to a belief in God. I have experienced many things in my life that I have no reason to think relate to any form of a God, but if I explained what I sensed some would think it was from their frame of reference or say it isn't real because of their frame of reference.

 

So if we are honest and realize that no two people believe exactly alike and that we are all biased one way or another we can let go of I AM RIGHT and YOU ARE WRONG AND I NEED TO PROVE YOU WRONG.  

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I don't give a damm what you or the coward df believes or any other atheist.

You people are the ones telling me I'm wrong, all the time, for the most I

enjoy talking to atheist. But what DF did was out of line, no one told me he

own Florence. Don't whine about what I post DF, It's not for you or any

one else who doesn't want to read it.

Some of you smug *******s are really something.

 

 


SIgh.  I was agreeing that nobody needed to be rude to anyone else and that no one can be absolutely right anyway...since I am not sure who DF is I am lost anyway.  And I never said anyone owns Florence and that was my point.  We're all doing our own thing and we come together here.  We can make it a pleasant experience for everyone and stay out of others' faces or make this a bid sandbox full of people kicking it at other.  That is all I was saying.

 

I'm not sure if you were referring to me as being one of the smug ones you mentioned, but really all I was trying to say was that I sure don't have all the answers and just like to drop by to chat a bit.  If I came across stronger than usual tonight it is because our power went off before 5am this morning and we were all up and cranky all day.  it came on about 6:30, but by then the fighting had begun..lol.

 

So all I wantedt is to hear friendly words and relax.  Anything else is too tiring at this point..lol.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

So you come into it sideways, I'll ask, why come in to it at all?

Oh that's right, to lol, I almost forget.

 

Originally Posted by frog:

I came into it sideways?  What does that mean?  

 

 

_________________________________________

 

I am sure you are starting to understand how things work around here now. Sometimes I just walk away. It can be quite pointless really.

 

If it helps I love your post and have started searching them out. I appreciate your point of view and find it very thought provoking.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by frog:

I came into it sideways?  What does that mean?  

 

 

_________________________________________

 

I am sure you are starting to understand how things work around here now. Sometimes I just walk away. It can be quite pointless really.

 

If it helps I love your post and have started searching them out. I appreciate your point of view and find it very thought provoking.


Yes, it can be pointless at times.

 

Thanks for your kind words...the feeling is mutual.

Frog,

DF is the old name for NSNS. And Dark is right about one thing, things work a certain way. The atheists insult the Bible and the religious believers and when the believers  have had enough, they  then insult the atheists back.

Now when the atheists do it, they are just asking questions and giving their HONEST OPINION.

When the religious do it, they are being mean and HATEFUL!

 

Got that now?

 

Your efforts as peace keeper is noble. But if you want more peace in your own life, read a book.

Originally Posted by b50m:

Frog,

DF is the old name for NSNS. And Dark is right about one thing, things work a certain way. The atheists insult the Bible and the religious believers and when the believers  have had enough, they  then insult the atheists back.

Now when the atheists do it, they are just asking questions and giving their HONEST OPINION.

When the religious do it, they are being mean and HATEFUL!

 

Got that now?

 

Your efforts as peace keeper is noble. But if you want more peace in your own life, read a book.


I came in here pretty neutral, since I really wasn't thinking that atheists would be speaking up and didn't think about all threads being one long contest that was repeated over and over...lol.  I don't like to see any side being rude to another, so I'm not on one "side" .

 

But I haven't seen it as the atheists being all nasty and the believers having enough and insulting them.  I see it going both ways...this isn't a forum where the poor religious group is going along posting peacefully and gets attacked.  If you think that you aren't reading carefully or don't like to see what is said on one side or both.  It also isn't the poor atheists going along posting peacefully and getting attacked either.  It's both "sides" and all sides saying snarky or nasty things to each other, and although that isn't all posts of course or all posters, it definitely isn't one innocent sweet loving group being attacked continuously by a meaniehead group.  It goes both ways, and I see digs that starts fights come from all sides.  It sounds nice to pick a team and feel picked on, but the reality is it goes both ways.

 

You last comment is typical of the issue.  So I guess you are telling me that if I want peace I need to go read the Bible?  I assume you didn't mean another book?  Well, you have no idea other than a couple of times my kids were arguing as all kids do if I need peace in my life, and if I want to find peace I would read a book that didn't have so much violence in it...lol.  My life is generally very peaceful, thanks, and I read lots of books, but thanks for the suggestion.

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