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Hi to all my Forum Friends,

In the Religion Forum discussion titled "Premillennialist  Folly" a Roman Catholic Friend asks:

 

If bad works could lead you to Hell -- why can't good works help you into Heaven?

 

First, bad works are NOT what earns a person a berth in hell.   That honor is ONLY for those who deny Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior -- and refuse His "paid in full" gift of eternal life, a gift which is available to all people.  But, a person must make a definite choice between heaven and hell.

 

And, the second part of your question:   "why can't good works help you into Heaven?"

 

Well, the main reason is because God tells us, in Ephesians 2:8-9,  "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

 

Then, a Forum Friend who constantly disagrees with the Bible offers this in rebuttal to my answer above:

 

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

 

I doubt God considers street-corner preaching of heresy, lies, and hypocrisy to be works. 

 

My Friend, let's try to clear the air since you don't seem too sure about the location of the Scripture passage you quoted.  It is from James 2 -- and the apostle Paul begins this passage with a rhetorical question in verse 14 -- and then gives the obvious answer in verse 17:

 

James 2:14-17, "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?  Can faith save him?  (15) If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, (16) and one of you says to them, 'Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,' but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?  (17) Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

 

Notice that Paul teaches that the "faith" is dead -- but says nothing about the person's salvation.  In other words, a Christian believer who has been given the blessed gift of eternal life, "paid in full" by the precious blood of Jesus Christ -- and who does not love Jesus Christ enough to do good works, good deeds, in His name -- that "faith" is dead. 

 

But, that person still has the gift of eternal life purchased for him/her by Christ .  What kind of Savior would He be if He gave a gift -- and then took it back?

 

Works are the "result" of our salvation -- not the "cause" of our salvation!

 

And, Paul clarifies that teaching in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15:

 

1 Corinthians 3:10-15, "According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it.  But let each one take heed how he builds on it [the house we call our salvation]. (11) For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.  (12) Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, -  wood, hay, straw, (13) each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire [Refiner's Fire, Malachi 3:1-2]; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.  (14) If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.  (15) If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss [of rewards in heaven, i.e., Believers' Judgment]; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

 

I believe we can see how these two Scripture passages complement one another.  Faith, i.e., salvation -- without good works to follow -- is dead (James 2:17).   When the believer stands before Christ at the Believers' Judgment -- those "good works which follow salvation" will be tested as by fire.  The works may burn up -- but the believer is saved (1 Corinthians 3:15). 

 

My Friend, I pray this clarifies for you the position of salvation and works in the life of a Christian believer.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

1 Corinthians 3_13-15 - Glory of God

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Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

 

My Friend, let's try to clear the air since you don't seem too sure about the location of the Scripture passage you quoted.  It is from James 2 -- and the apostle Paul begins this passage with a rhetorical question in verse 14 -- and then gives the obvious answer in verse 17:

 

James 2:14-17, "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?  Can faith save him?  (15) If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, (16) and one of you says to them, 'Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,' but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?  (17) Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

 

Notice that Paul teaches that the "faith" is dead -- but says nothing about the person's salvation.  In other words, a Christian believer who has been given the blessed gift of eternal life, "paid in full" by the precious blood of Jesus Christ -- and who does not love Jesus Christ enough to do good works, good deeds, in His name -- that "faith" is dead. 

 

But, that person still has the gift of eternal life purchased for him/her by Christ .  What kind of Savior would He be if He gave a gift -- and then took it back?

 

_____________________

Ummmmm..... no.  Your reading comprehension score today is zero. 

 

Faith is dead = no faith = no salvation = no eternal life = eternal hot seat. 

 

For salvation there actually have to be works - some, better than others, won't "burn" (ie gold vs straw), but without the works there is no faith and therefore no salvation.

 

 

 

In other words, a Christian believer who has been given the blessed gift of eternal life, "paid in full" by the precious blood of Jesus Christ -- andwho does not love Jesus Christ enough to do good works, good deeds, in His name -- that "faith" is dead. 

 

But, that person still has the gift of eternal life purchased for him/her by Christ

 

_______________

How did this person come to receive salvation in the first place?  What happened to the Holy Ghost that you thinks possesses this person?  Did he depart?  Was he never "indwelled"?   How can one have faith when that faith is dead? This is the most ridiculous thing you have ever posted.

Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

In other words, a Christian believer who has been given the blessed gift of eternal life, "paid in full" by the precious blood of Jesus Christ -- andwho does not love Jesus Christ enough to do good works, good deeds, in His name -- that "faith" is dead. 

 

But, that person still has the gift of eternal life purchased for him/her by Christ

 

_______________

How did this person come to receive salvation in the first place?  What happened to the Holy Ghost that you thinks possesses this person?  Did he depart?  Was he never "indwelled"?   How can one have faith when that faith is dead? This is the most ridiculous thing you have ever posted.

____

Crusty,

 

Perhaps you have forgotten that creative term devised by Bill to describe the dysfunctional state of idleness of the "OSAS" persons that Bill contemplates.  He calls them "couch potato Christians."

 

Bill must acknowledge that they once "believed", else Bill could not possibly consider them to be any kind of "Christian" at all, couch potato or otherwise.

 

In other contexts, Bill asserts that good works and morally upright behavior are  natural and expected consequences following salvation and that those who do not exhibit such traits were not actually saved, were not true believers.

 

But Bill can not have it both ways.  Either that do-nothing couch potato Christian was truly saved despite the utter absence of any behavior evidencing that salvation or he (the couch potato) never was truly saved to begin with, as demonstrated by his failure to evidence the fruits of his salvation.

 

One from Column A or one from Column B--but you can't have both!

Last edited by Contendah

I've long ago concluded that Bill requires OSAS to get into heaven.  His misguided life, except for a day or two of being "saved", will certainly earn him fire and brimstone.  He clings to a misinterpretation of the Bible as his only hope for salvation. 

 

According to Bill DLH™, on the one hand a Christian who has lost faith never had it to begin with, but on the other one can have faith that is dead and still be saved.  Somehow, in Johhny's crazed mind, these are not contradictory ideas.  What a crock. 

To keep the ten commandments or any command of God is a work.

Jesus said "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

Honor your Father and Mother, one of the commandments, it may be

a spiritual thing or a work you do for your parents but doing what God

tells you is a work in itself. If you actively avoid committing a sin or do

a good work of charity you're doing a work. No one can work

themselves into Heaven, but are we going to be judged entirely on our

bad actions while our good actions count for nothing? Salvation is a free

gift that comes from God by way of grace, and we can't do anything that

makes us worthy of it. Faith is an essential part of salvation, but it's

necessary to do something in order to be saved. If not, the only ones

in Heaven will be the couch potatoes...........

quote: Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

quote: Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

My Friend, let's try to clear the air since you don't seem too sure about the location of the Scripture passage you quoted.  It is from James 2 -- and the apostle Paul begins this passage with a rhetorical question in verse 14 -- and then gives the obvious answer in verse 17:

 

James 2:14-17, "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?  Can faith save him?  (15) If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, (16) and one of you says to them, 'Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,' but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?  (17) Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

 

Notice that Paul teaches that the "faith" is dead -- but says nothing about the person's salvation.  In other words, a Christian believer who has been given the blessed gift of eternal life, "paid in full" by the precious blood of Jesus Christ -- and who does not love Jesus Christ enough to do good works, good deeds, in His name -- that "faith" is dead. 

 

But, that person still has the gift of eternal life purchased for him/her by Christ .  What kind of Savior would He be if He gave a gift -- and then took it back?

 

Ummmmm..... no.  Your reading comprehension score today is zero. 

 

Faith is dead = no faith = no salvation = no eternal life = eternal hot seat

 

For salvation there actually have to be works - some, better than others, won't "burn" (ie gold vs straw), but without the works there is no faith and therefore no salvation.

Crusty, my Friend,

 

Look more closely at Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. . . "

 

It is through a living "faith" that one is saved.  That faith is not salvation.  But through that "faith" the door opens through which we invite Jesus Christ to come in, dine with us, and be our Lord and Savior (Revelation 3:20).

 

If one's faith is dead, he cannot be saved by grace "through faith."  

 

Then, you write:

 

For salvation there actually have to be works - some, better than others, won't "burn" (ie gold vs straw), but without the works there is no faith and therefore no salvation.

 

Once again, you do not quite understand.  You are still equating "works" with "salvation" -- while Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;  not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."  

 

Works are the result of our salvation -- NOT the cause of our salvation.

 

Notice in the graphic below that we are shown:

 

(1)  The moment we receive Jesus Christ, i.e., we are Justified:

 

The word justified means “pronounced or treated as righteous.”  For a Christian, justification is the act of God not only forgiving the believer’s sins but imputing to him the righteousness of Christ.  The Bible states in several places that justification only comes through faith alone (e.g., Romans 5:1; Galatians 3:24). 

 

Justification is not earned through our own works; rather, we are covered by the righteousness of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8; Titus 3:5).  The Christian, being declared righteous, is thus freed from the guilt of sin.

Justification is a completed work of God, and it is instantaneous, as opposed to sanctification, which is an ongoing process of growth by which we become more Christlike (the act of “being saved,” cf. 1 Corinthians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:23).  Sanctification occurs after justification.  (http://www.gotquestions.org/ju...cation-by-faith.html)

 

 (2)  Then we begin the process of growth in Christ called Sanctification -- through which we grow more mature in our knowledge of God's Word and more mature in our daily Christian walk with Christ.

 

And, (3)  At mortal death, or at the Rapture, whichever occurs first -- we will be Glorified.  What is Glorification?  This Scripture passage explains it well:

 

1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.  Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we (all believers)will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.  But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, . . . "

 

Basically, Glorification is the time when God wipes away ALL of the vestiges of our sin nature and makes the believer fit to live eternally in His presence in heaven.

 

And that is exactly what the graphic below is telling us.   We are saved, Justified (a one time event) -- then we begin the process of Sanctification which lasts throughout this mortal life -- and, at death or the Rapture, we are Glorified and taken into the eternal presence of God.

 

That, in a nutshell, is SALVATION!  Straight from God's Written Word, the Bible.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Gods Plan - Pastor Freddy - SALVATION - Outline

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Last edited by Bill Gray
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

To keep the ten commandments or any command of God is a work.

Honor your Father and Mother, one of the commandments, it may be a spiritual thing or a work you do for your parents.

______

That's one commandment old Billy broke for sure when he "forgot" to call or speak to his Mother for 5 years. To get on this forum & tell it in a way that was bragging is just as bad. Goofy old fool....and he thinks we're supposed to believe he's saved?!??

quote: Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

If there's no benefit from works, then that would deny free will.  The definition of work will show the act of showing, accepting faith if it's accepted completely as a gift, as a work.  How do you deny free will? That's what happens when works or of no use.

Vic, my Friend,

 

It is obvious that you DO NOT read what others write -- BEFORE you start blurting our your Vatican thoughts.

 

Works are indeed needed and rewarded.  However, you always get your donkey behind your cart.

 

WORKS are the RESULT of our salvation --

NOT the CAUSE of our salvation.

 

We are saved by grace through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9, Ephesians 1:13, John 19:30) -- PLUS NOTHING ELSE.  AFTER we are saved, sealed by the Holy Spirit, and adopted into God's Family -- we should me eager to DO WORKS.  But, those works reflect our salvation; they do not cause our salvation.

 

And, when we stand before Jesus Christ at the Believers' Judgment in heaven during the seven year Tribulation -- those works will earn us rewards in heaven, or lack of works will cause us to lose rewards in heaven.

 

However, when those works are judged (1 Corinthians 3:10-15) -- believers are already in heaven.  We would not be in heaven if we were not saved.  That is our Believers' Judgment.

 

My Friend, I sincerely pray that THIS TIME my explanation has seep into your head.  Or, will you, as usual, begin to immediately respond to what I have written WITHOUT even reading it?

 

Bless your dense little heart!

 

Bill

 

Ephesians 2_8-9 - Light House At Sunset

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Last edited by Bill Gray

Bill Gray has now made his standard contention that Heaven is a place where there is something of a caste system where the "saved" folks who were bestest and goodest on earth get more goodies than other  folks who got "saved" and then just hung around waiting for Heaven..

 

Bill has to push this aberrant concept because not to do so would fatally damage his OSASitudinous Calvinist heresy, wherein his hypothetical do-nothing "Christian couch potato" skates  blithely through the pearly gates, indolence and lassitude notwithstanding.

 

Bill will also tell us that good works are the evidence that one has received salvation, which exposes an inconsistency in Bill's OSASininity, since his hypothetical "Christian couch potato" by definition is NOT evidencing those good works that are the evidence of salvation.. Absent the evidence of a thing, one is wise not to try to make a case for it.  District attorneys know this principle well.  Cafeteria Calvinists of the Bill Gray subspecies largely disregard it.  

Hi all,

 

Well, let me see now.  I share my beliefs and support them from the Bible.

 

Contendah, on the other hand, just yells out his beliefs, makes up childish names to call anyone who disagrees with him -- and no Biblical proof.

 

Oh, true, he will cherry pick a verse here and there -- and declare that proves his whole theology.  But, Benny Hinn and Joel Osteen do the same thing.

 

My, my, who do we believe -- the Bible -- OR Contendah, Benny Hinn, and Joel Osteen?

 

Personally, I think I will just stay with the Bible and leave the yelling and silly name calling to Contendah.

 

Bless his childish little heart!

 

Bill

Friends_Piggy_Bear_TEXT-1

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Bill Gray blithers as follows:

 

<<<Contendah, on the other hand, just yells out his beliefs, makes up childish names to call anyone who disagrees with him -- and no Biblical proof.>>>

 

That same blithering Bill has thus far failed to respond to the following (in blue) challenge I posed to him on Monday.   Forum readers can decide for themselves whether my post is no more than "yelling and silly name calling."

 

<<<Ah, Bill, you are so transparently evasive. You quoted, AND THEN TOTALLY IGNORED   that part of the Hebrews 6 passage that affirms that the persons described there had ""become partakers of the Holy Ghost." And you utterly failed  to answer the question that I repeatedly posed to you, namely:

 

The believers in Hebrews 6:1-9 [believers who were believers indeed, having become "partakers of the Holy Spirit" (V. 4)] became apostates who were deemed to have "crucified the Son of God afresh" (v. 5).  Were those apostate former believers saved, Bill?

 

You boogied over to another passage, Ephesians 1:13:

 

"In Him, you also, after listening (hearing)to the message of truth, the Gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

 

You contend  that this passage somehow trumps the Hebrews 6 passage because the Ephesian passage specifically mentions that the subject persons "believed and were sealed with the Holy Spirit." 

 

But tell us, Bill, what is the difference between "being sealed with the Holy Spirit" (Ephesians 1:13) and "having partaken of the Holy Ghost" (Hebrews 6:4).  More particularly, what is the difference between the two passages that assures you that the Ephesian were believers indeed but those persons described in Hebrews  6:4 had never been true believers?

 

Both had received the Holy Spirit, Bill. Are you telling me that there was something in the manner in which the persons in Hebrews 6 had received the Holy Spirit that left them short of having believed as they should have?

 

It is axiomatic that the persons described in Hebrews 6:4 were once Christian believers, but had apostatized.  Among other things, it is evident that they had at some former time repented, since it would make no sense to say that "it is impossible to restore [them] again to repentance" unless they had repented at an earlier time.   Moreover, they had been"enlightened."  Thayer, the eminent Greek lexicographer (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament,1963 Edition, page  663), says that the Greek word here used is in reference to "those who had been made Christians."  He cites Hebrews 10:32 ("But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened you endured a hard struggle with sufferings....") as having identical meaning and there can be no doubt but that in that passage it is Christians who are being addressed and described.

 

So there you have it, Bill Gray.  You have placed yourself in the untenable position of declaring that the persons described in Hebrews 6:4, although they had  repented, and been "enlightened" and had "become partakers of the Holy Spirit" nevertheless had somehow never "believed" and thus never were true Christians.

 

To contend that the formerly penitent, formerly enlightened persons there described were never believers is a zany exercise in Calvinistic eisegesis,  Bill, and you should be ashamed of buying into such a distorted interpretation. Such hermeneutical misadventures, alas, are the inevitable refuge of those who seek to defend the indefensible Calvinistic doctrine of perseverance!

 

As to that Colossians 1:23 passage and your astonishing misinterpretation, Bill, I can only say "GOOD GRIEF!"  What in thunder is the apostle describing if not SAVED BELIEVERS??!!  He says this:

 

"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel...."  Read that again, Bill and tell us just how those Colossians can "continue in the faith grounded and settled"and still not be saved believers.  And do not try to contend that Paul was writing to anyone here but Christians.  In the second verse of the same chapter, he describes who he is writing to:  "To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse...." Paul leaves no doubt that he considers these "faithful brethren" to be saved persons or he would not have addressed them in this manner.  

 

Bill, you dance around the second part of verse 23 in a feeble, irrational  attempt to argue that though they had "heard", they could not be said to be true believers, that they had not taken the "final step and BELIEVED in  Him unto salvation."  Again, Bill,  just how could  those Colossian "saints and faithful brethren"    "continue in the faith grounded and settled" and still not have "BELIEVED"? ?  How could they "continue in the faith" without having ever been "in the faith"?  One can not continue in something unless one is in that something already!  

 

In the beginning of this string, Bill, you exulted in the fact that there are many viewers of this forum and that through your so-called ministry, at least some of them might find the truth.  It is my fond hope that at least some of them might read the truth that I have posted above about the utter falsity and shabbiness of your Calvinistic distortions of the meaning of the scriptures discussed above. >>>

 

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