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Interesting speaker, to be sure. Would be very interested to hear Notre Dame rebuttal. It is extremely difficult to be faithful when there is so much suffering. I cant argue there. His reasoning makes perfect sense, and I have a hard time rebutting anything he has said. That said, my faith in God remains. I do believe that He wants the good in the world, but I do not believe he micromanages our lives. ....will have to sleep on this.

Harris was whipped for sure.  Harris only had objections as to how God handles His business. Dr. Craig beats him with logic. Harris insists there is something out there in the cosmos with morality stamped on it.  We have scientific authority that’s not the case; we are just quarks and gluon stuff. No morality particle.

God didit.

What is the Harris framework for morality DF? If it was present after the big bang it is equally present in rocks. Again we know through the scientific method what the cosmos consists of; elementary particles of gluons and quarks. Nothing in the classical world will find even a probable state for quantum morality in them. It’s just not there, never was and never will be. You prepare a system of argument that morality is somehow an inherent state as in  up or down but when measured there is no state found nor a probability for one in our quantum world.

Originally Posted by Winston Niles Rumfoord:

DF, a fat, ugly California atheist is trying to drag you into perdition. 

 

I can't believe that he is just a stupid atheist if he is trying to recruit followers, he must be actively working for the dark side. 

==============

What do you look like?

 

"When religion ruled the world it was called the dark ages."

Originally Posted by Chillin&Grillin:

What is the Harris framework for morality DF? If it was present after the big bang it is equally present in rocks. Again we know through the scientific method what the cosmos consists of; elementary particles of gluons and quarks. Nothing in the classical world will find even a probable state for quantum morality in them. It’s just not there, never was and never will be. You prepare a system of argument that morality is somehow an inherent state as in  up or down but when measured there is no state found nor a probability for one in our quantum world.

Hands down science finds absolutely NO provision for morality, a conscience state,  intuition or fear in our quantum world.

They of necessity spring from a Creator outside our universe and beyond our power to comprehend.

quote:  Originally Posted by Jennifer Bestworking:
"When religion ruled the world it was called the dark ages." 

Hi Jennifer,

 

Any time, past or present, "religion" rules -- whether in a country or in the world -- that should be considered the "dark ages."  I agree with you completely.

 

However, praise God, religions do not rule the world -- Christianity does!   No matter how dark Satan may paint the hearts of non-believers  -- God still rules.   And, guess what?  God won long ago.

 

We are just in the clean-up skirmishes until Christ returns to take His church, the worldwide body of believers, out of this world (called the Rapture).  And, then the entire world will be left in the hands of only non-believers.  That is when you will see total chaos.  If you are interested, you can read about this in the book of Revelation.

 

By the way, if you need help understanding the book of Revelation, and associated books such as Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc., regarding those dark days -- I will be happy to help you.  I have been doing a study of that time, called the End Times, for over twenty years.  Just let me know if I can help.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Jennifer,

 

Any time, past or present, "religion" rules -- whether in a country or in the world -- that should be considered the "dark ages."  I agree with you completely.

 

However, praise God, religions do not rule the world -- Christianity does!   No matter how dark Satan may paint the hearts of non-believers  -- God still rules.   And, guess what?  God won long ago.

 

We are just in the clean-up skirmishes until Christ returns to take His church, the worldwide body of believers, out of this world (called the Rapture).  And, then the entire world will be left in the hands of only non-believers.  That is when you will see total chaos.  If you are interested, you can read about this in the book of Revelation.

 

By the way, if you need help understanding the book of Revelation, and associated books such as Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc., regarding those dark days -- I will be happy to help you.  I have been doing a study of that time, called the End Times, for over twenty years.  Just let me know if I can help.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

______________________

#6

Bill sez>>>>>>“

We are just in the clean-up skirmishes until Christ returns to take His church, the worldwide body of believers, out of this world (called the Rapture). And, then the entire world will be left in the hands of only non-believers. That is when you will see total chaos. If you are interested, you can read about this in the book of Revelation.”

….and I say: seems to me like[ if Bill turns out to be correct] all the atheists should be praying steadfastly that the Rapture comes right away.  Then they could see the experimental results of the atheists having everything their way.

DF, the framework for morality in the absence of a scientifically demonstrated one by experiment and measured results with and without any set of morals is an impossible task.

   On the other hand we both admit to the existence of “morals”, since there is no demonstration of morals as having any classical or quantum properties by experiment and measurements there are non except by a creator of them outside our universe. God’s laws of acceptable conduct is the framework of morals.

   Deep we are all made of the same things that compose the universe. These elementary things science has discovered have a very limited set of properties when measured; morals is not one of these properties.

   Like it or not our classical views about our world vanish in the quantum world and become only probabilities not definite undisputed measurements. Yes there is something out there bigger than all of us.

C&G,

 

Your reasoned, gentle response is what makes your kind of Christian different from the nutjob sort that infests this forum all too often.

 

A few years ago, an experiment was undertaken in Israel in which they told a class of kids about a savage tribe that wanted the land of another tribe.  The offensive tribe killed all the men, women, children, and cattle of the defensive tribe.  The children were universally aghast.  They told another class that the attacking tribe were the Jews of the Old Testament and the defending tribe were Amelikites.  The kids said, well, that was the will of god, so it's OK.  Whatever morality is, it's not religious.

 

Morals exist, in varying degrees, among many of the animals with which we share this earth.  From piranhas to elephants, social animals have rules by which they live.  Societies demand such rules.  The lesser animals cannot abstract and expand those moralities, but the moralities are very real.  It is simply an evolutionary quality necessary for the survival of societies.

 

By the way, if morals come from the god who cursed all mankind for the mistake of innocent humans who did not know right from wrong, drowned every person and beast except for an incestuous family of drunks, demanded the murder of hundreds of thousands of Levantines and others who were not among his chosen, demands the mutilation of babies; genitals, supports slavery, keeps himself and his alleged "salvation" invisible to most of the world, and created Hell, then count me among the immoral.

 

The truth is, I'm far more moral than your god, and so are you.

 

 

DF

“whatever morality is it is not religious” . very true in a “prepared state” where we state rules which say there can be only two possibilities.  1. Morality is religious 2. Morality is not religious. We then measure morality based on what we believe the outcome of the prepared state will be let’s say we prepared the outcome to be morality IS religious and when we measure the results we find it is not the prepared state nor it’s opposite but a probability of being one of the two states. Our first thought might be that our rules were  not the possibilities of an outcome and at the same time we know that the statement “morality is religious” is a statement that is either true or false. since the observable outcome results in a probability that the prepared state is true our measurements must have been made of “complex values” which consist of classically real and imaginary. The probability state, when considered has properties that remain true for the “prepared state” , those that are neutral to either state and those that are changed and are true in themselves but do not support the proposition or it’s opposite.

  We are somewhat comfortable in our classical state here on Earth where everything is real enough but in reality we exist in a quantum world made only of probabilities.

My dear C&G,

 

I did not set up a prepared state.  I did say "whatever" morality is.  That is not a binary choice.

 

Certain religious people, however, do make morality a binary choice.  From the most ignorant backwoods Fundy to William Lane Craig.  Morality from god or no morality at all.   I'm glad to see you have seen through that.  Many have not.

 

We are not entitled to describe the almost entirely Newtonian world in which we live "quantum".  Yes, uncertainties abound, and usually only the most foolish among us are certain of anything.  The absolutely most foolish among us are certain of things on faith alone.  This is human derived and human-scale philosophy.  However, quantum refers to the infinitesimally small, sub-atomic realm in which the common sense of our Newtonian world holds no sway.  It's a bit of "woo woo" in the fashion of the successful fakir Deepak Chopra, who implies the non-causality and uncertainty on the quantum level affect our human-scale lives. It does not, any more than the relativistic speeds of fleeing galaxies do, on the other end of physics.  We are entitled to live in our "classical state", as you mentioned, without worrying about the very small or very large physics which, in the end, matter as little as they are interesting in their profundity.

 

Best,

 

DF

Deep, I’m not familiar with Chopra but Bells Theorem states:  No physical theory of local hidden variables can ever reproduce all of the predictions of quantum mechanics. Wiki

   An interesting side note from Physics World,

Does noise improve a bird's spin-based compass?

http://physicsworld.com/cws/ar...s-spin-based-compass

This is an interesting study. I wonder if it will violate or be consistent with Bell’s Inequality? I can’t totally see a faster than light communication between a bird eye and spin properties. The answer I think would simply be a quantum entanglement between some elementary particle, probably electrons, in the bird and the singlet. The string theorist will argue they are already entangled. Particles can be entangled at any distance but they can also be untangled. The tangle eye probably occurs at a short distance in this case.

It will be a difficult study to say the least but I’m no looking for the results to bail this Chopra guy out.

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