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Wait a minute GoFish. You and the other evolutionist harp about how evolution is based on scientific fact. You can't have it both ways........I want to know the FACT about what existed before any universe existed. Where did that come from? I don't understand why that is so hard to answer?

quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
Still waiting on the rest of my question to be answered? What was before the beginning of the Universe?


ML,

I already spent a fair amount of time to that same question in the simplest way I could muster. Please go read the response.

The bottom line is, we don't know. Theories abound but we don't know. Insert god here if you want (I once did). This is called "the God of the Gaps" where the Creator hides in the shadows of the light of reason.

The problem with that notion is that the light of reason keep getting brighter.
Oh but my dear friend DeepFat........how can you be so wrong and type with a straight face?
In your posts you state "MATTER" came from something as small as a pin point that later evolved into the world we live in today complete with human beings. So how can you say evolution has nothing to do with the beginning of the universe? You are perplexing in your logic. Again...........please answer my question with STONE COLD FACTS (that you so graciously have been giving out over this forum). Why don't you have an answer as to what happened before the big bang? You seem to have the answers thereafter? You make no sense.

quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
M,

Evolution is a fact. Stone, cold fact.

But, evolution has nothing to say about the beginning of the universe. That would be Cosmology.

What happened before the Big Bang? No one knows. Not me, nor you. The scientists are working on it. Stay tuned.

DF
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
Oh but my dear friend DeepFat........how can you be so wrong and type with a straight face?
In your posts you state "MATTER" came from something as small as a pin point that later evolved into the world we live in today complete with human beings. So how can you say evolution has nothing to do with the beginning of the universe? You are perplexing in your logic. Again...........please answer my question with STONE COLD FACTS (that you so graciously have been giving out over this forum). Why don't you have an answer as to what happened before the big bang? You seem to have the answers thereafter? You make no sense.

quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
M,

Evolution is a fact. Stone, cold fact.

But, evolution has nothing to say about the beginning of the universe. That would be Cosmology.

What happened before the Big Bang? No one knows. Not me, nor you. The scientists are working on it. Stay tuned.

DF


I believe a chicken laid an egg. Really, they have answered your question. Here, I'll try and help you out a little:

What happened before the Big Bang? No one knows. Not me, nor you. The scientists are working on it. Stay tuned.

Okay, your turn, but we all know what you are going to say.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
M,

Evolution is a fact. Stone, cold fact.

But, evolution has nothing to say about the beginning of the universe. That would be Cosmology.

What happened before the Big Bang? No one knows. Not me, nor you. The scientists are working on it. Stay tuned.

DF

Hi Deep,

We can help them. Tell them to go buy a Bible and begin reading at Genesis 1:1. This will answer most of their questions. If they read it seriously enough, the rest will be answered later -- by God Himself.

Just trying to be helpful.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
I want to know the FACT about what existed before any universe existed. Where did that come from? I don't understand why that is so hard to answer?


The answer isn't that hard, Lentz. I've told you twice so far. Let me see if I can make it clearer:

NO ONE KNOWS. WE DON'T KNOW.

I hope that clears it up for you.

We do know, as much as science can "know" something, that the universe had a beginning.
Evolution is often said to be both theory and fact. This statement, or something similar, is frequently seen in biological literature. The point of this statement is to differentiate the concept of the "fact of evolution", namely the observed changes in populations of organisms over time, from the "theory of evolution", namely the current scientific explanation of how those changes came about.

See more here.
Science Daily is a great resource. We've got some extremely bright people asking the same questions....


What Happened Before The Big Bang?

ScienceDaily (Jul. 3, 2007) — New discoveries have been made about another universe whose collapse appears to have given birth to the one we live in today. They will be announced in the early on-line edition of the journal Nature Physics on 1 July 2007 and will be published in the August 2007 issue of the journal's print edition. "My paper introduces a new mathematical model that we can use to derive new details about the properties of a quantum state as it travels through the Big Bounce, which replaces the classical idea of a Big Bang as the beginning of our universe," said Martin Bojowald, assistant professor of physics at Penn State. Bojowald's research also suggests that, although it is possible to learn about many properties of the earlier universe, we always will be uncertain about some of these properties because his calculations reveal a "cosmic forgetfulness" that results from the extreme quantum forces during the Big Bounce.
Ok.......would you consider an intelligent force that created the universe? If not.....what do you think created the heavens and the earth?

quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
I want to know the FACT about what existed before any universe existed. Where did that come from? I don't understand why that is so hard to answer?


The answer isn't that hard, Lentz. I've told you twice so far. Let me see if I can make it clearer:

NO ONE KNOWS. WE DON'T KNOW.

I hope that clears it up for you.

We do know, as much as science can "know" something, that the universe had a beginning.
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
I want to know the FACT about what existed before any universe existed. Where did that come from? I don't understand why that is so hard to answer?


The answer isn't that hard, Lentz. I've told you twice so far. Let me see if I can make it clearer:

NO ONE KNOWS. WE DON'T KNOW.

I hope that clears it up for you.

We do know, as much as science can "know" something, that the universe had a beginning.

Hey Fish,

If your scientists are having a hard time finding answers -- why not buy them a Bible. Then they will have all the answers; then they can tell you the answers; and since they are your gods, you will then know about the real God.

Isn't it wonderful to have a complete revelation of the Truth -- all in one volume? Yes sir, "Everything you ever wante to know about life!" And, it is right in front of your nose.

Jump in and see where you, I, science, and all the rest of the universe started.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Dropkick Me Jesus Through the Goalposts of Life

Drop kick me Jesus through the goal posts of life
End over end neither left nor to right
Straight through the heart of them righteous uprights
Drop kick me Jesus through the goal posts of life.

Make me, oh make me, Lord more than I am
Make me a piece in your master game plan
Free from the earthly tempestion below
I’ve got the will, Lord if you’ve got the toe.

Drop kick me Jesus through the goal posts of life
End over end neither left nor to right
Straight through the heart of them righteous uprights
Drop kick me Jesus through the goal posts of life.

Take all the brothers who’ve gone on before
And all of the sisters who’ve knocked on your door
All the departed dear loved ones of mine
Stick’em up front in the offensive line.

Drop kick me Jesus through the goal posts of life
End over end neither left nor to right
Straight through the heart of them righteous uprights
Drop kick me Jesus through the goal posts of life.

Yeah, Drop kick me Jesus through the goal posts of life
End over end neither left nor to right
Straight through the heart of them righteous uprights
Drop kick me Jesus through the goal posts of life.
GoFish,
Thid is exactly why you are laughed at with your postings. When the questions get tough or "step on your toes" you resort to foolish space alien comments. That's perfectly ok. I am truly trying to find out some information.
So........again.........how did this whole life and evolution thing start? Do you believe in a beginning and an end? At least answer me that.

quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
what do you think created the heavens and the earth?


Why, an omnipotent space alien poofed it by wriggling His nose, of course.
M,
Your childish repetition of "why" is really grating.

I presume you insinuate that "god" created the universe. Very well.

What created "god"?

And what created that?

You have no idea. No one does. We go back far enough, and the only answer is "we don't know".

Better honest ignorance than dishonest presumption of knowledge beyond our capacities.

DF
BINGO!! Thanks DeepFat! You hit the nail square on the head. Thanks for just proving my argument.

If we don't know how far back the universe was created, who created it or when it was created........how in the heck can you evolutionary types tell me with certainty what happened 4 billion years ago!!!!!

Point proven.......

I knew with a litle rope it would all come out.

Thanks

quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
M,
Your childish repetition of "why" is really grating.

I presume you insinuate that "god" created the universe. Very well.

What created "god"?

And what created that?

You have no idea. No one does. We go back far enough, and the only answer is "we don't know".

Better honest ignorance than dishonest presumption of knowledge beyond our capacities.

DF
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
BINGO!! Thanks DeepFat! You hit the nail square on the head. Thanks for just proving my argument.

If we don't know how far back the universe was created, who created it or when it was created........how in the heck can you evolutionary types tell me with certainty what happened 4 billion years ago!!!!!

Point proven.......

I knew with a litle rope it would all come out.

Thanks

quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
M,
Your childish repetition of "why" is really grating.

I presume you insinuate that "god" created the universe. Very well.

What created "god"?

And what created that?

You have no idea. No one does. We go back far enough, and the only answer is "we don't know".

Better honest ignorance than dishonest presumption of knowledge beyond our capacities.

DF


ML, do you believe in creationism? The perceived Christian God's effort to produce all that we observe and see?

And if you do, why?

(Take your time, I'll wait.)
Yes. Do you?

quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
BINGO!! Thanks DeepFat! You hit the nail square on the head. Thanks for just proving my argument.

If we don't know how far back the universe was created, who created it or when it was created........how in the heck can you evolutionary types tell me with certainty what happened 4 billion years ago!!!!!

Point proven.......

I knew with a litle rope it would all come out.

Thanks

quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
M,
Your childish repetition of "why" is really grating.

I presume you insinuate that "god" created the universe. Very well.

What created "god"?

And what created that?

You have no idea. No one does. We go back far enough, and the only answer is "we don't know".

Better honest ignorance than dishonest presumption of knowledge beyond our capacities.

DF


ML, do you believe in creationism? The perceived Christian God's effort to produce all that we observe and see?

And if you do, why?

(Take your time, I'll wait.)
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
Yes. Do you?

quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
BINGO!! Thanks DeepFat! You hit the nail square on the head. Thanks for just proving my argument.

If we don't know how far back the universe was created, who created it or when it was created........how in the heck can you evolutionary types tell me with certainty what happened 4 billion years ago!!!!!

Point proven.......

I knew with a litle rope it would all come out.

Thanks

quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
M,
Your childish repetition of "why" is really grating.

I presume you insinuate that "god" created the universe. Very well.

What created "god"?

And what created that?

You have no idea. No one does. We go back far enough, and the only answer is "we don't know".

Better honest ignorance than dishonest presumption of knowledge beyond our capacities.

DF


ML, do you believe in creationism? The perceived Christian God's effort to produce all that we observe and see?

And if you do, why?

(Take your time, I'll wait.)
quote:
I just love being right.


ML,

Allow me to outline your thought process:

You ask "what happened before that?" about a half dozen times. I and others took the time to convey, in very simple terms, the current scientific reasoning for each and every question. You asked some of these questions again and again even though clear answers were provided.

Like a third grader, you kept asking "And before that?" until we reached a point where the only answer is "We don't know." At this point you claim, "Ahh HAH! Got ya! See? God did it!"

My question: Do you sincerely not see the fallacy of this line of thought? Is a man truly able to live in this technological 21st century, operate a computer, drive a car, compose a sentence, yet still not be able to understand how ridiculously flawed this line of reasoning is?
M,

The reasons why we know the Earth is 4.7 Billion years old has nothing whatever to do with evolution.

The study of the Earth is "geology". It uses techniques such as radiometric dating and other stuff you could not understand.

However your post is a sterling example of how the religious poisoning surrounding biology has corrupted and closed the minds of the uneducated and gullible among us to science in general.

This is why I fight the lie that is Creationism.

DF
quote:
The reasons why we know the Earth is 4.7 Billion years old has nothing whatever to do with evolution.


This kind of confusion has always bothered me a little, Deep.

You are right in this context, of course; Evolution (the study of life AFTER it started) is is a wholly seperate discipline from cosmology and "big bang theory." However, this concept can obviously be quite confusing. Honestly, I can understand the confusion. There obviously is quite a bit of overlap between origins of the universe and origins of life.

All this to say that, while I perfectly understand (and agree with) your statement that the formation of earth has "nothing to do with evolution," that statement is also misleading. Obviously, the formation of the earth into a "life friendly" environment has very much to do with evolution as well.

So, I agree with you, of course. But I also understand why there is confusion. This is a difficult concept for a scientifically illiterate audience.
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
The reasons why we know the Earth is 4.7 Billion years old has nothing whatever to do with evolution.


This kind of confusion has always bothered me a little, Deep.

You are right in this context, of course; Evolution (the study of life AFTER it started) is is a wholly seperate discipline from cosmology and "big bang theory." However, this concept can obviously be quite confusing. Honestly, I can understand the confusion. There obviously is quite a bit of overlap between origins of the universe and origins of life.

All this to say that, while I perfectly understand (and agree with) your statement that the formation of earth has "nothing to do with evolution," that statement is also misleading. Obviously, the formation of the earth into a "life friendly" environment has very much to do with evolution as well.

So, I agree with you, of course. But I also understand why there is confusion. This is a difficult concept for a scientifically illiterate audience.

Hi Y'all,

WOW! Can you imagine? Two Atheist agree with one another!

Be still my heart.

Now, all y'all have to do is to start agreeing with God -- and your life will be complete.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
BINGO!! Thanks DeepFat! You hit the nail square on the head. Thanks for just proving my argument.

If we don't know how far back the universe was created, who created it or when it was created........how in the heck can you evolutionary types tell me with certainty what happened 4 billion years ago!!!!!

Point proven.......

I knew with a litle rope it would all come out.

Thanks



Wow, you are SO clever.
quote:
I gotta say, Deep, it is you that is grating on my nerves. I don't know how many times I have to say it for you to unplug your ears and listen..... George Bush, it's all his fault. Wink


All right, crusty. No parmesan cheese on your holy noodle sacrificial dinner tonight.

"Eat this, it's linguine. Drink this, it's a nice chianti." -- Noodlemeister
That is a very good thing my friend CrustyCrack. It's also a good thing our forefathers (who believed in God) were not born there also. Makes you appreciate "God" now and then doesn't it?



quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
Faith

quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
Yes.


Why?


Good thing for you you weren't born in Iran. You'd be wearing an explosive girdle, and jabbering about virgins by now.
I agree Bill. These are the same folks who believe in Gay Marriage, global warming and abortion. Am I right? I said.......Am I right!!???

quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
The reasons why we know the Earth is 4.7 Billion years old has nothing whatever to do with evolution.


This kind of confusion has always bothered me a little, Deep.

You are right in this context, of course; Evolution (the study of life AFTER it started) is is a wholly seperate discipline from cosmology and "big bang theory." However, this concept can obviously be quite confusing. Honestly, I can understand the confusion. There obviously is quite a bit of overlap between origins of the universe and origins of life.

All this to say that, while I perfectly understand (and agree with) your statement that the formation of earth has "nothing to do with evolution," that statement is also misleading. Obviously, the formation of the earth into a "life friendly" environment has very much to do with evolution as well.

So, I agree with you, of course. But I also understand why there is confusion. This is a difficult concept for a scientifically illiterate audience.

Hi Y'all,

WOW! Can you imagine? Two Atheist agree with one another!

Be still my heart.

Now, all y'all have to do is to start agreeing with God -- and your life will be complete.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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