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Scientists Speak About Intelligent Design

Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi my Friends,

Thank you for your concern. But, I am fine. Been a bit busy; but, not on sermons. I leave that to my pastor. We did have a great Bible study on Friday night. Wish you could have been there.

Lately, I have been more in the reading mode rather than the writing mode.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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MLentz 2MLentz 2Hall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
Sure.................you.

quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
Daily proof their is a higher power named GOD.


You can show me the proof as to "why" you believe in a god.


Please feel free to explain, "why" you believe I am proof.


Very simple:
Genesis 2:7
miamizsunmiamizsunHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
Very simple:
Genesis 2:7


Why do you think Genesis 2:7 is proof?


Faith


Why do you have faith?


(honestly, at this point I really don't expect an answer, either you don't have one or you're inclined not to give it, other than the circular conversation you seem to advocate. and that is OK. either you have really good reasons to believe something or you don't.)
MLentz 2MLentz 2Hall of Famer
Very simple. I believe there is a God and I have faith in him. I see proof each and everyday. The complexity of the human body, our planet is the only (planet) in our solar system that sustains life. Our sun can not one inch closer without disrupting our fragile eco-system.....do you think this is by chance?
The human heart beat. What causes that to happen? Where does that come from? Dogs, cats, children.........I noticed the moon the other night. Very full and very bright? Does the moon "by chance" affect the tidal system on earth just "by chance"?
So many unanswered questions I hope to ask one day. As for now, I am completely, definately, honestly and totally convinced there is an intelligent being (GOD) that is behind all of this. No question.
miamizsunmiamizsunHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
Very simple. I believe there is a God and I have faith in him. I see proof each and everyday. The complexity of the human body, our planet is the only (planet) in our solar system that sustains life. Our sun can not one inch closer without disrupting our fragile eco-system.....do you think this is by chance?
The human heart beat. What causes that to happen? Where does that come from? Dogs, cats, children.........I noticed the moon the other night. Very full and very bright? Does the moon "by chance" affect the tidal system on earth just "by chance"?
So many unanswered questions I hope to ask one day. As for now, I am completely, definately, honestly and totally convinced there is an intelligent being (GOD) that is behind all of this. No question.


What about tornadoes, tsunamis, earthquakes, birth defects, diseases, senseless human suffering, etc., etc.???

Let me guess, these are beyond his control? No?
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi Miami,

MLentz said, "Very simple. I believe there is a God and I have faith in him. I see proof each and everyday."

And, you responded, "What about tornadoes, tsunamis, earthquakes, birth defects, diseases, senseless human suffering, etc., etc.??? Let me guess, these are beyond his control? No?"

Does God allow things to happen? Yes. Does He have a reason? For the believer, we find His answer in Romans:

Romans 5:1-2, "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."

Then, the apostle Paul continues in Romans 5:3-5, "And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us."

First, we are assured of our peace with God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. Then Paul goes on to explain how God builds us into stronger beings and stronger believers.

Just as when heat and pressure is applied to iron; and it becomes strong steel -- man, when tempered by the heat and pressure of trials and tribulations -- we become steeled believers; not wavering in our walk with the Lord.

Do we want to have trials and tribulations? No, for we are weak humans; we prefer a life of ease and plenty. However, when we are strengthened by the Holy Spirit; we can withstand the trials and tribulations which are making us stronger in our faith.

But, you ask, how about the non-believer, why does he have to suffer these things? I guess the only answer is, to make him stronger in his disbelief. He has chosen to turn away from Jesus Christ; he has chosen to do things "his way." So, when the storms hit; he is on his own. Sort of like the man who built his home on the sand; and when the tempest came, his home was destroyed (Matthew 7:26-27).

But, the man who builds his home on the Rock; when the storm comes -- his home stands strong (Matthew 7:24-25).

So, Miami, maybe it is time to put away your Sam Harris books and pick up the one book that has the true answers, the Bible.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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miamizsunmiamizsunHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Miami,

MLentz said, "Very simple. I believe there is a God and I have faith in him. I see proof each and everyday."

And, you responded, "What about tornadoes, tsunamis, earthquakes, birth defects, diseases, senseless human suffering, etc., etc.??? Let me guess, these are beyond his control? No?"

Does God allow things to happen? Yes. Does He have a reason?

But, you ask, how about the non-believer, why does he have to suffer these things? I guess the only answer is, to make him stronger in his disbelief. He has chosen to turn away from Jesus Christ; he has chosen to do things "his way." So, when the storms hit; he is on his own. Sort of like the man who built his home on the sand; and when the tempest came, his home was destroyed (Matthew 7:26-27).


Bill, you might want to visit China and/or Myanmar and tell them that is part of Gods plan to make them stronger in their disbelief. I'm sure they will relieved to hear it.
CrustyMacCrustyMacOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
Our sun can not one inch closer without disrupting our fragile eco-system.....do you think this is by chance?

What are the odds it wouldn't happen randomly? Probably less than the number of solar systems in the universe. Why didn't God make it so Mars and Jupiter could sustain life? Just a whimsy?

The human heart beat. What causes that to happen? Where does that come from?

I'm not a doctor, but I'm pretty sure they know.

Dogs, cats, children.........

mmmmm.... do you really not know the facts of life?

I noticed the moon the other night. Very full and very bright? Does the moon "by chance" affect the tidal system on earth just "by chance"?

That would be gravity. You slept through EVERY science class?

So many unanswered questions I hope to ask one day.

Most of your questions have been answered already, you just need to do a little research. However, just because you don't understand something doesn't mean the answer is "God did it."

As for now, I am completely, definately, honestly and totally convinced there is an intelligent being (GOD) that is behind all of this. No question.

But no proof. Good thing your mother wasn't a follower of Jim Jones.
MLentz 2MLentz 2Hall of Famer
Say what you will. I have given you definate proof God exists. He created earthquakes, tornado's, fires, plague, cave-in's, birth defects, cyclones.........and atheists. Good company I would think.

However please allow me to ask when does life begin? What starts the human heart beating? That's right........good ole God.

But please give the good lord credit. Sunshine, spring, summer, fall, love, happiness, children, puppies, husbands, wives, hope, the grass, birds, grandmothers, granddads, honesty, life, free-will.......shall I continue or does this just upset our non-believing friends?
MLentz 2MLentz 2Hall of Famer
Our sun can not one inch closer without disrupting our fragile eco-system.....do you think this is by chance?

What are the odds it wouldn't happen randomly? Probably less than the number of solar systems in the universe. Why didn't God make it so Mars and Jupiter could sustain life? Just a whimsy?

ANSWER: Good question. I will put that on my list of things to ask God when I meet him. Where can I get in touch with you when that day comes (to let you know what he said)

The human heart beat. What causes that to happen? Where does that come from?

I'm not a doctor, but I'm pretty sure they know.

ANSWER: Great. I will ask my local physician

Dogs, cats, children.........

mmmmm.... do you really not know the facts of life?

ANSWER: I don't know who gave you "the talk" when you were young but my facts of life consisted of the birds and the bees.


I noticed the moon the other night. Very full and very bright? Does the moon "by chance" affect the tidal system on earth just "by chance"?

That would be gravity. You slept through EVERY science class?

ANSWER: Please tell me you just didn't say that? Go check you encyclopedia britannica.

So many unanswered questions I hope to ask one day.

Most of your questions have been answered already, you just need to do a little research. However, just because you don't understand something doesn't mean the answer is "God did it."

ANSWER: Prove God does not exist.

As for now, I am completely, definately, honestly and totally convinced there is an intelligent being (GOD) that is behind all of this. No question.

But no proof. Good thing your mother wasn't a follower of Jim Jones.

ANSWER: Thanks for rolling all Christians into the same barrell. I guess it's a good thing your mother wasn't a follower of Marilyn Manson.
CrustyMacCrustyMacOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
Our sun can not one inch closer without disrupting our fragile eco-system.....do you think this is by chance?

What are the odds it wouldn't happen randomly? Probably less than the number of solar systems in the universe. Why didn't God make it so Mars and Jupiter could sustain life? Just a whimsy?

ANSWER: Good question. I will put that on my list of things to ask God when I meet him. Where can I get in touch with you when that day comes (to let you know what he said)

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that these were rhetorical questions. My bad. But I still want to play, and the answer to your question: depends on who goes first, but Houdini has already proven you can't speak from the grave, so I won't be looking for any answers from you should you pre-decease me.

The human heart beat. What causes that to happen? Where does that come from?

I'm not a doctor, but I'm pretty sure they know.

ANSWER: Great. I will ask my local physician

Now we are getting somewhere.

Dogs, cats, children.........

mmmmm.... do you really not know the facts of life?

ANSWER: I don't know who gave you "the talk" when you were young but my facts of life consisted of the birds and the bees.

I see your problem. The stork brought them. And I guess you still believe in Santa Claus. I think I had a "sex ed" class in 5th grade. It was quite informative.

I noticed the moon the other night. Very full and very bright? Does the moon "by chance" affect the tidal system on earth just "by chance"?

That would be gravity. You slept through EVERY science class?

ANSWER: Please tell me you just didn't say that? Go check you encyclopedia britannica.


My Britannica is at home, and I hate looking things up in its goofy system anyway. Here are paragraphs 1 and 3 from the Wikipedia article on tides, though:

"Tides are the rising and falling of Earth's ocean surface caused by the tidal forces [the tidal force is a secondary effect of the force of gravity and is responsible for the tides.] of the Moon and the Sun acting on the oceans. Tidal phenomena can occur in any object that is subjected to a gravitational field that varies in time and space, such as the Earth's land masses.

"The changing tide produced at a given location is the result of the changing positions of the Moon and Sun relative to the Earth coupled with the effects of Earth rotation and the local shape of the sea floor.[1] Sea level measured by coastal tide gauges may also be strongly affected by wind."

Does the Britannica say "God does it"? I'll have to look. I think I get at least an 85% for hitting the key point, though.


So many unanswered questions I hope to ask one day.

Most of your questions have been answered already, you just need to do a little research. However, just because you don't understand something doesn't mean the answer is "God did it."

ANSWER: Prove God does not exist.

Can't, don't want to, don't need to. Have I ever said that God doesn't exist? Others, much more intelligent and interested in the various subjects have answered most, if not all, of your questions, and the answer is never "God does it". Using your logic the Easter Bunny and Santa Cluas exist, because I can't prove they don't. I can't, but I can, with observation prove that the Easter Bunny is not responsible for delivering eggs at your house next Easter, and with a little investigation, I can probably prove the Easter Bunny NEVER delivered eggs to you.

Cling to your faith, revel in it, but don't blame God for everything, and try taking your fingers out of your ears. The universe is an awesome place to LIVE in and learn about NOW. On second thought, if there is a God and everlasting life, he and I will be breaking par at the links, look for me there.

As for now, I am completely, definately, honestly and totally convinced there is an intelligent being (GOD) that is behind all of this. No question.

But no proof. Good thing your mother wasn't a follower of Jim Jones.

ANSWER: Thanks for rolling all Christians into the same barrell. I guess it's a good thing your mother wasn't a follower of Marilyn Manson.

Not all Christians, just the kool-aid drinkers, who think the Bible is an absolute, literal science and history text "written by the hand of God" {the lalalalallalala, I can't heeeeaaaar yoooouuuuuu crowd}, and that use fill-in-the-gap science.

Thanks for your concern for my mother. She happened to be a pretty devout woman, an elder in our church, but not a fundamentalist wacko. Both of my parents taught us critical inquiry. Both were quite interested in science and nature and the wonderment of our world. I can't ever remember either of them blaming God for anything, good or bad.

Last edited by CrustyMac
CrustyMacCrustyMacOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Miami,

MLentz said, "Very simple. I believe there is a God and I have faith in him. I see proof each and everyday."

And, you responded, "What about tornadoes, tsunamis, earthquakes, birth defects, diseases, senseless human suffering, etc., etc.??? Let me guess, these are beyond his control? No?"

Does God allow things to happen? Yes. Does He have a reason?

But, you ask, how about the non-believer, why does he have to suffer these things? I guess the only answer is, to make him stronger in his disbelief. He has chosen to turn away from Jesus Christ; he has chosen to do things "his way." So, when the storms hit; he is on his own. Sort of like the man who built his home on the sand; and when the tempest came, his home was destroyed (Matthew 7:26-27).


Bill, you might want to visit China and/or Myanmar and tell them that is part of Gods plan to make them stronger in their disbelief. I'm sure they will relieved to hear it.


And besides, I'm pretty sure we have absolutely proven that all those things are Bush's fault.
MLentz 2MLentz 2Hall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Miami,

MLentz said, "Very simple. I believe there is a God and I have faith in him. I see proof each and everyday."

And, you responded, "What about tornadoes, tsunamis, earthquakes, birth defects, diseases, senseless human suffering, etc., etc.??? Let me guess, these are beyond his control? No?"

Does God allow things to happen? Yes. Does He have a reason?

But, you ask, how about the non-believer, why does he have to suffer these things? I guess the only answer is, to make him stronger in his disbelief. He has chosen to turn away from Jesus Christ; he has chosen to do things "his way." So, when the storms hit; he is on his own. Sort of like the man who built his home on the sand; and when the tempest came, his home was destroyed (Matthew 7:26-27).


Bill, you might want to visit China and/or Myanmar and tell them that is part of Gods plan to make them stronger in their disbelief. I'm sure they will relieved to hear it.


And besides, I'm pretty sure we have absolutely proven that all those things are Bush's fault.


Wow! You hate God and George Bush. Anyone else we need to add to the list?
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
Y'all need to check this out if you think Creationism and ID are different.

http://richarddawkins.net/article,2612,Proving-ID-is-Creationism,NCSE

DF

Wow! Deep,

That is really exciting! Richard Dawkins discussing Creation and ID. We all know that he will give it an impartial review. Give me a break!

Next you will be asking us to read a book on morals written by Billy Bob Clinton.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
GuffawGuffawOld Faithful
quote:
Mr. Gray......pray tell me why DF and GF get so mad all the time?


Angry? Hardly. Impatient and frustrated? Yup.

Speaking only for myself, of course, I simply have no patience with willful ignorance. You and Bill purposefully avoid any sort of fact that doesn't agree with your dim view of rational thinking.

That's not so bad if you keep it to yourself. But you and Bill seem to be proud of your ignorance and insist that lack of knowledge is a good thing.

I urge you to avail yourself of any and all knowledge - especially knowledge that challenges you or that you disagree with. There is no reason to live in ignorance in this modern informations age.
GuffawGuffawOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
Name ONE ( 1 ) myth in the bible.


There is no possible way that a boat could be built large enough to contain two of every single creature that walked the face if the earth, including dinosaurs, Lentz. To believe otherwise is simply insane.

Don't forget that there would also have to be a a large sample of every single plant as well - enough spread out over the world and feed the plant eaters quickly. There would have alos had to been enough plant eaters to feed the meat eaters unless Yahweh fed them air for a few hundred years until they re-established.

Did you know there are over 250,000 different species of beetle alone?

Heck, the entire story of Jesus itself was plagiarized from previous god/man stories. An example is here.

It's all a myth, Lentz. Open your eyes.
MLentz 2MLentz 2Hall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
Originally posted by MLentz:
Name ONE ( 1 ) myth in the bible.


There is no possible way that a boat could be built large enough to contain two of every single creature that walked the face if the earth, including dinosaurs, Lentz. To believe otherwise is simply insane.

Don't forget that there would also have to be a a large sample of every single plant as well - enough spread out over the world and feed the plant eaters quickly. There would have alos had to been enough plant eaters to feed the meat eaters unless Yahweh fed them air for a few hundred years until they re-established.

Did you know there are over 250,000 different species of beetle alone?

Heck, the entire story of Jesus itself was plagiarized from previous god/man stories. An example is here.

It's all a myth, Lentz. Open your eyes.


So........you know how many species of animals existing during Biblical times? How do you know that? Where did you get your information?
D DeepFatOld Faithful
In biblical times, roughly the last 4000 years or so, there must have been about the same number of species there are now. We can surmise this because evolution works very slowly, over many thousands of years.

As for the tower of babel, it's likely that nomadic Jewish tent-dwellers were awed and confused in Babylon by strange people, speaking strange languages, and living in elevated buildings of stone and brick.

http://books.google.com/books?id=WPsgAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA365&...JVO8&hl=en#PPA367,M1

One myth from the bible? How about the bible?

DF
MLentz 2MLentz 2Hall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
In biblical times, roughly the last 4000 years or so, there must have been about the same number of species there are now. We can surmise this because evolution works very slowly, over many thousands of years.

As for the tower of babel, it's likely that nomadic Jewish tent-dwellers were awed and confused in Babylon by strange people, speaking strange languages, and living in elevated buildings of stone and brick.

http://books.google.com/books?id=WPsgAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA365&...JVO8&hl=en#PPA367,M1

One myth from the bible? How about the bible?

DF


Nice try TransFat. You still haven't proved the bible is a myth. Do you not understand? Our thoughts are not God's thoughts. Our ways are not God's ways.......

Think about it this way.......where did you learn your atheiestic ways? That's right.....from another human......who learned that from another human....who learned that from another human.....and so on and so on.

You, I, we are so flawed it's not even funny. If you think for one minute you, I (or the Easter Bunny) is smarter than God......give me a break.

Just remember......

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Pretty simple huh?
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