Seeking the Gods

deep all i can say is a quote:

"Lorna said to me, 'You know Riddley theres some thing in us it dont have no name.' I said, 'What thing is that?' She said, 'Its some kind of thing it aint us but yet its in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals. May be you dont take no noatis of it only some times. Say you get woak up suddn in the middl of the nite. 1 minim youre a sleap and the nex youre on your feet with a spear in your han. Wel it wernt you put that spear in your han it wer that other thing whats looking out thru your eye hoals. It aint you nor it don't even know your name. Its in us lorn and loan and sheltering how it can.' "

deep it's possible that you don't have that thing lookin' out your eye-holes. that thing missing may be what KNOWS GOD  and not you.....so in your case you didn't woked up in the middle of the nite with a spear in your hand

Originally Posted by Jankinonya:

Yes, my mind is open. I am agnostic, stated many times before There is a wealth of anecdotal evidence that many accept as proof of the existence of a supernatural being. In fact, personal experiences are acceptable as evidence in court. So if your best friend told you they saw an angel, would you believe them or have them committed? When I said-----

Given that you are trying to put parameters around something that would have none, it is a futile effort.-------I was NOT inferring that a 'being' exist, just that if it does, we would have no way to determine it's existence. That is, there would not be any scientific proof. So a scientific study of a supernatural being would be like having a blind deaf  man describe a baseball game.  It's there, it exists, but he has no proof of it.

So whether any Gods exist or not, it's impossible to use the scientific method to find out. It goes back to the usual replies of God exists-You're delusional.

Once someone has made a personal decision on the matter, then they cannot be objective.

I have not made that decision. I have simply said it's possible, but I don't know.

To each his own and demeaning the opposing view serves no purpose.

Peace.

Deep you make the statement early , How do I believe before I believe? I can't answer your question , I can only tell you that he says in John 8:24  " for if you believe not that I am he , you shall die in your sins." and if you die in your sins then you will go to hell, but you and everone who has ever lived will bow your knee to God and confess that he is God. Philipians 2:10&11

 

Crumb,

 

We know that all the anecdotal "evidence" in the world is not as good as one experiment.  Galileo showed that up in the Leaning Tower of Pisa, or so the legend goes.

 

Isn't it interesting that people almost always have "experiences" with the gods with which they are familiar?  Americans see Jesus, Arabians see Mohammed, Indians see Ganesha.  Curious, no?

 

We are capable of much self-delusion, and a little exposure to the quirks of human nature might make more of us lean less heavily on those delusions.  People want to be right about something, and often they claim personal experiences that cannot be duplicated, falsified, or refuted.  So that makes them right, doesn't it? 

No.  It does not.  It makes them stubborn and gullible.

 

I once had an "out of body experience" (OBE).  My consciousness seemed to lift out of my body and rise to the ceiling of my bedroom.  I thought I had to make a decision to keep going into the unknown or return to my comfortable body.  I "returned".  Was it real?  It felt real.  It was not real, it's a typical human psychological phenomenon.  Lots of people have them.  It's a bit like deja vu.  Spooky, but not real.

 

"Delusion" like "ignorance" is a misunderstood term.  It's not derisive, it's simply explanatory.

 

DF

Thanks, prince Al.

 

I'm not fussing at you, nor am I in the least angry, but you should understand that quoting the Bible to me means absolutely nothing.  The Bible is the claim, not the evidence.  As an explanation or justification, it has no merit to offer.

 

DF

I once had an "out of body experience" (OBE).  My consciousness seemed to lift out of my body and rise to the ceiling of my bedroom.  I thought I had to make a decision to keep going into the unknown or return to my comfortable body.  I "returned".  Was it real?  It felt real.  It was not real, it's a typical human psychological phenomenon.  Lots of people have them.  It's a bit like deja vu.  Spooky, but not real.

=======================

I had surgery. When I went under, that was it until I woke up hours later. I've had vivid dreams where I got up, did everything I normally do when I get up, dress, get coffee, or breakfast, and it was real, it was familiar, then something told me it wasn't real, and in the dream I walked back to the bedroom, got back into bed and "went back to sleep". I've had the flu and had some wild things go on while my fever was high, and they seemed as real as anything. But as soon as the fever went down I knew what had happened was not real, even though I could remember it. And like you say, most everyone has had those things happen. The mind is capable of all sorts of strange things and it's not supernatural. 

Jesus has been executed. But on the third day he rose again, sitting on the almighty god father right side and from there judge the living and the dead.

i never take anything personally. i know those who speak disrespectful don't know yet who they are in Jesus. so i will take the opportunity to share a scripture i thought interesting... i know that angels walk among us... hg<><

I've entertained an angel or two, but I can't really talk about it here.

 

DF

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

How do you explain the creepy feeling of someone watching you from across a room? You just sense that you are being watched, look up, and there are some eyes on you. Or the feeling of someone moving up behind you even though you hear nothing and see nothing. Finishing someone's  sentence for them? All just coincidence? There are too many things that science can't explain.

As for the gods appearance, I would assume that the being appears in a form that is recognizable by the person. A Christian would find Gautama Buddha a bit disturbing, and the Jewish would not want Allah.

For religion to be a classified as a delusion, it has to be proved without a doubt that only that person or group of people is suffering from a false belief (this also has to be proven ) while the majority of the rest of the population holds the opposite view. If we go by 'majority wins' and they earn  the 'right' of being non-delusional, then the atheist point of view would be the delusional one.

I also had  an out of body experience once. It was outside, on a sunny day, and the wind was literally blowing my 'self' across the fields. I felt the tumbling and saw the ground moving yet I also knew I was standing by a tree at the same time. Very enjoyable experience that I was never able to duplicate. Too bad too, for it was the most peaceful moment I ever had in my life. Science can't explain that one either. No drugs, no stress, no external stimuli.

Nice.

hg> of course you probably have DF. but the reason you can't tell about it is because we are 'unaware' of who they are..

Oh, I was entirely aware of them.

 

DF

Lol deep? That's probably for another forum. Like one you have to pay a per minute fee...

ho v, he put in a dime and turned a crank handle

hg> then they weren't really angels, though i know you aren't speaking of God's angelic.

Crumb writes: How do you explain the creepy feeling of someone watching you from across a room? You just sense that you are being watched, look up, and there are some eyes on you. Or the feeling of someone moving up behind you even though you hear nothing and see nothing. Finishing someone's  sentence for them? All just coincidence? There are too many things that science can't explain.

 

In any crowded room, everyone is looking at someone.  Yes, we sense we are being seen, because we see others.  If the sense of being followed was more perfect, fewer people would be ambushed in war or crime-ridden places.

 

All just coincidences?  For sake of argument, I'll say "Yes".  Slightly beyond that, we have evolved to take seriously the rustling in the bushes.  Is it a lion who wants to eat us, or merely the wind?  If we assume it's the lion, we stand a better chance of survival.  If it's the wind, our humiliation is minimal and understandable.

 

Enjoying the convo.

 

DF

. Finishing someone's  sentence for them?

================

If you know someone well enough you can not only "finish their sentence" for them, you can give their entire "speech" about something. If you're in a discussion you pretty well know how the other person is leaning, and it's not unusual at all that you can say what they're thinking. Something odd happens and you look at a total stranger and you both say, "did you see that"?? Nothing spooky or supernatural about it. Subtle things about others, such as body language or eye movements that you pick up on without even realizing it, plays a big part in it too. Say a person walks into a room and someone finds them attractive, or for some other reason "pays attention" to them. That person subconsciously, or even consciously picks up on that, and yes, when they look they are being looked at and "meet that person's eyes".

Best what about when you jump up at night, being startled, and you don’t remember putting your false teeth in yo haid but they are there just the same. Now ain’t that weird?  “it’s not you that done it, it’s thing inside you that’s lookin’ out through your eye houls that done it”. LOL “it don’t even have no name” LOL.

Best,

 

Point well taken.

 

The larger point is that when we don't understand something, the less intelligent among us attribute it to the gods.

 

Perhaps I should not say the less intelligent, but perhaps the less courageous among us.  Who among us knows everything?  Who among us claim to know everything?  Anyone who claims to know the answers to everything knows nothing, and is entitled to the ridicule forthcoming.

 

DF

 

The larger point is that when we don't understand something, the less intelligent among us attribute it to the gods.

 

Perhaps I should not say the less intelligent, but perhaps the less courageous among us.  Who among us knows everything?  Who among us claim to know everything?  Anyone who claims to know the answers to everything knows nothing, and is entitled to the ridicule forthcoming.

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We will never know it all. Maybe a few hundred years from now they'll have everything figured out.  I guess you know you are a true atheist when instead of wondering if there could be a god, or thinking there could be, you wonder instead "just what did they do with hoffa's body"?  

Deep definition:

1. mockery, raillery, sarcasm, satire, irony. 2. banter, chaff, rally, twit, burlesque, satirize, lampoon. Ridicule, deride, mock, taunt imply making game of a person, usually in an unkind, jeering way. To ridicule is to make fun of, either sportively and good-humoredly, or unkindly with the intention of humiliating: to ridicule a pretentious person.  To deride is to assail one with scornful laughter: to deride a statement of belief.  To mock is sometimes playfully, sometimes insultingly, to imitate and caricature the appearance or actions of another: She mocked the seriousness of his expression.  To taunt is to call attention to something annoying or humiliating, usually maliciously and exultingly and often in the presence of others: to taunt a candidate about his defeat in an election.

 

DEEP's on-going assay and just can't seem to "pan out".

Best, I simply go with the best evidence.  The evidence for the god of the bible is poor. 

 

DF

Deep definition:

1. mockery, raillery, sarcasm, satire, irony. 2. banter, chaff, rally, twit, burlesque, satirize, lampoon. Ridicule, deride, mock, taunt imply making game of a person, usually in an unkind, jeering way. To ridicule is to make fun of, either sportively and good-humoredly, or unkindly with the intention of humiliating: to ridicule a pretentious person.  To deride is to assail one with scornful laughter: to deride a statement of belief.  To mock is sometimes playfully, sometimes insultingly, to imitate and caricature the appearance or actions of another: She mocked the seriousness of his expression.  To taunt is to call attention to something annoying or humiliating, usually maliciously and exultingly and often in the presence of others: to taunt a candidate about his defeat in an election.

 

DEEP's on-going assay and just can't seem to "pan out".

And BTW FWI Deep ignores the obvious; the world around him testifies to the necessity of a creator. He has deep deformities of reason.

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What you described here Qtip could be the actions of anyone of you three

amigos if anyone dare have a thought or opinion which crosses your fear

threshold of blasphemy and sacrilege you consider your house of  heresy.

 

What you call refute Catholic Doctrine is nothing more than your fear of

" If the truth be known".

Deep dish I think you have been given ample time to prove what you infer as being easy; that being scientific proof that there is no creator of my universe.  Name calling and ridicule is far from being scientific. Your forms of argument against a creator is not quite the necessary vocabulary for the flimsiest of architecture. Not having sound powers of the mind will restrict your reason  and judgment. The  evidence for a creator is robust.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

All good points. It's easy to finish a friend or relatives sentence, but a stranger's? I can see if it's a common expression but I'm referring to two complete strangers finishing sentences in unison. Odd to say the least.

 

As for the 'eyes' staring feeling, DF, let me tell you what happened to me. I was in a restaurant eating with a friend. After a few minutes, I had the creepy chill on the back of my neck. I looked around and saw no one looking in my direction. The feeling became stronger and it was most maddening. I finally did a complete 360 and saw a man who had been across the room directly behind me staring right  at me. I met his gaze and he motioned for me to come over. He explained he had been staring because he thought he knew me. After introducing ourselves, we discovered we had gone to the same high school but had not been  in the same grade. I was a year ahead and he remembered me from school events. I did not know him. We talked for a few minutes and I went back to eating. Now, he had not spoken, I did not see him or even know him, yet I felt him staring at me. You can attribute it to any thing you would like too, but I have no logical explanation other than some sort of esp sensation.

On ESP, I am sure you are familiar with this study:

http://www.science20.com/news_...e_settled_the_debate

An interesting point to me, they concluded the brain responded the same to 'esp' and 'non esp' stimuli. If the reaction was the same, then the brain did respond to the esp. Instead of concluding that the study proved the lack of esp, I think they proved the opposite. But, who knows?

Crumb ,earlier “the thing that’s in you that don’t have no name” but “it’s “peeping out through your eye houls” saw that acquaintance of ‘yours’ . ‘it’ waited until you had finished the business of getting sot down rather than bother you with it right off the bat. It mightta thought you was clumsey and didn’t want to brake your concentration knowin whats better for you “lorn an loan”. then at the proper time it connected a synapse or two together between that lookin snapse and yo neck and kept on rubbin then synapses together till you neck snapses couldn’t take it iny more. It wasn’t you that suddenly jumped to yo feet and headed out over there but it was that thing in you that don’t have no name and is lookin out through yo eye houls.

[thanks Russell Hoban]

 It's easy to finish a friend or relatives sentence, but a stranger's? I can see if it's a common expression but I'm referring to two complete strangers finishing sentences in unison. Odd to say the least

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That's not odd at all. Like I said, you know how a discussion is going, it only takes a few words, picking up on their body language, to get a grasp of how the other person is thinking and that makes it quite easy to "finish their sentence".

Good lord best, what are you going to come up with next. I just hope we [the gummit] are not subsidizing the business you are supposed to be working at.

Interesting story, Crumb.  Could it be that you saw him looking at you earlier, but did not record that in your conscious mind, but only your subconscious?  And that subconscious recognition gave you that creepy feeling?

 

DF

I doubt there is a sufficient answer to your question even if an answer was attempted.  Instead let me ask you a question to contemplate.  IF, as Christians, Jews etc believe, God is so infinitely powerful, and basically the Deity that Created all that we see and holds the Universes together (granted an assumption) then WHY or what reason would there be for such a God/Deity have to take any attempt other than that which has already been provided, to demonstrate unto you in some miraculous unprecedented and undeniable way that He is who He is to someone who doesn't believe in Him in the first place?    

In other words what makes ANY OF US worthy or exceptional that a God, a Deity, a entity so great and powerful (again assumptions for the sake of the question) should do the slightest of things to reveal Himself?  Why should WE Expect that of God in the first place (IF (for the sake of the question ... again) He does exist)?

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

I have no idea. The guy was seated before I came in and I never crossed his path, so to speak. However it occurred, it was weird. I'm a very gregarious person so crowds don't automatically trigger a creepy sensation. It's only happened a few times in my life, but each one made the hair stand on the back of my neck. ESP, primitive fear instinct, subconscious recognition, peripheral vision, ghosts or whatever, just creepy.

Where did your universe come from? 

This whole debate is really frustrating. You know, faith, by definition is believing in something in the absence of evidence. All the "doubting Thomas' " in the world will never be satisfied with any answer given here. The fact is, we will not have PROOF until either we leave this earthly life, or we have a deep conversion of heart which is personally indisputable. Personal revelations give people proof, but not tangible items that can be entered into evidence. If you demand evidence before you will believe in God, there's nothing anyone can say. Just think, for one minute though- when Jesus was on the Cross, after He has breathed His last, the guards pierced His side and water flowed out. They got their proof.

No offense intended, yet you will take offense anyway, but your post is mixed up. On the one hand you seem to acknowledge that there people who don't believe in a god/gods, then you ask them to "think about jesus on the cross, and water flowing and the guards getting their proof".  There are other things that people believe"on faith" because someone convinced them, or after they have personal revelations or "encounters", and believers in a god will call those people crazy. There are people going to work and about their business, not bothering anyone, seemingly perfectly sane folks that can tell you about their abduction by space men. They are very strong in their belief, can offer thousands of years of "proof" to back up their belief, so I wonder why more people don't believe and accept them? 

Yes, it goes around and around with one asking how anyone could believe the universe just "poofed" into existence when they know it came from a being that was always here. Who/what "poofed" that being into existence? And around and around it goes.

best tell us all how the universe poofed into existence. ill bet you can't. neither can deep fossil. oh, deep can run to an atheist site and fetch a snippet about the big bang, offer it up as proof and he nor you are any the wiser. you are just bumping your gums and know nothing about mechanics of the BB Theory. you might as well claim God poofed it. you, academically dear, have no clue to make either claim.

Originally Posted by Quaildog:

When you look at both explanations, both involve a 'poofing' nature. 'God' did it or 'nothingness' exploded. Neither make much sense.

The God and the quantum proposition both require non-classical[ as in Newtonian physics] happenings.