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Originally Posted by Crumbpicker:
Originally Posted by Quaildog:

best tell us all how the universe poofed into existence. ill bet you can't. neither can deep fossil. oh, deep can run to an atheist site and fetch a snippet about the big bang, offer it up as proof and he nor you are any the wiser. you are just bumping your gums and know nothing about mechanics of the BB Theory. you might as well claim God poofed it. you, academically dear, have no clue to make either claim.

When you look at both explanations, both involve a 'poofing' nature. 'God' did it or 'nothingness' exploded. Neither make much sense.

Actually it isn't that complicated but one thing is for sure and that is that we, mere Humans, with our severely limited abilities and intellect, either will not conceive of it or understand it.  There may be one or two capable minds out there but for the most part everyone else puts their faith in someone or something and nothing innate is put forth.  Just try and conceive and understand the concept of eternity, actual never ending before and never ending after, it's not a concept or thing that can be understood with our intellect but just has to be accepted.

 

Now regarding life, the Earth and the Universe around us I think it takes a lot more faith and effort to try and fashion all that out of "nothing" as in a Big Bang rather than to believe that everything came from, originated, and is maintained by some infinity intelligent and powerful, external source and force.  The great problem with the latter is that it makes us (humans) responsible to someone other than ourselves and opens the prospect up that we will one day be accountable for our own decisions and that which we accept.  You can play pascals wager over and over but ultimately it comes down to someone being right and someone being wrong and there either being an accountability or there not being.  Mankind's spirit/soul/essence will either cease to exist past physical death or it will transcend into another dimension or realm and we will discover what awaits us in the coming life/existence.  To just believe everything happened by accident (non-directed) then you have to assume or believe that things go from the most infinitely basic to the most infinitely complex.  To believe that creation is valid and things are brought about out of infinite intelligence or from direction is to accept and admit that we just don't know and cannot know or conceive of how it happened or how it continues to be and that we are reliant upon someone or something else.  As for me I know which I consider the most plausible.  

gbrk writes: In other words what makes ANY OF US worthy or exceptional that a God, a Deity, a entity so great and powerful (again assumptions for the sake of the question) should do the slightest of things to reveal Himself?  Why should WE Expect that of God in the first place (IF (for the sake of the question ... again) He does exist)?

 

gb, if yours is the real situation, then worship is meaningless.  It's futile and silly.  If god is so utterly sublime that we humans cannot imagine him, then our supplications are the penultimate of folly.

Not only that, but if god is as exceptional as you suggest, then our suppositions to understand and explain him are the most ludicrous of follies.

I submit, sir, or madame, that the only honest, intellectually sound course of action is to hold the concept of the gods in the highest skepticism.  If he exists, god will forgive us for using the minds he gave us.
He might not forgive us for not using them.

 

 

DF

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

gbrk writes: In other words what makes ANY OF US worthy or exceptional that a God, a Deity, a entity so great and powerful (again assumptions for the sake of the question) should do the slightest of things to reveal Himself?  Why should WE Expect that of God in the first place (IF (for the sake of the question ... again) He does exist)?

 

gb, if yours is the real situation, then worship is meaningless.  It's futile and silly.  If god is so utterly sublime that we humans cannot imagine him, then our supplications are the penultimate of folly.


Your statement that "If yours is the real situation" is followed by not an answer but a statement. My question was more directed toward someone seeking or demanding proof/evidence of God and without such determining that God certainly doesn't exist.  That may or may not apply to you or anyone else on the forum.  Belief in God is faith in that which you cannot see, touch, feel, or have proof of.  Worship is to acknowledge worth unto God and yield to that which we consider and acknowledge to be far beyond our own self and capabilities to express gratitude and to acknowledge that we are dependent upon something and someone other than our own selves.    Knowledge of God, or that which can possibly be humanly obtained, is obtained through God's Holy Spirit as God reveals Himself unto the believer.


Not only that, but if god is as exceptional as you suggest, then our suppositions to understand and explain him are the most ludicrous of follies.

 

I agree, in part, because as I subject I fully believe God is beyond human explanation or understanding.  I fully do not believe God meant for us to have that knowledge or power for we are a limited creation and remember (even though I know you don't believe it) the first humans were lured, tempted, to violate God's rules/commands in the effort to be God Like and be LIKE God or equivalent with God. 

I submit, sir, or madame, that the only honest, intellectually sound course of action is to hold the concept of the gods in the highest skepticism.  If he exists, god will forgive us for using the minds he gave us.
He might not forgive us for not using them.

 

 And I submit that attempts to define or understand God, limited as we are, would be the utmost of futility but rejection of God based upon deciding that God doesn't present Himself to us or go out of His way to us specifically is the utmost of arrogance.   Then again Christians assert and say that God did just that, reveal Himself unto us and further provided His own self as sacrifice to atone for a judgment against mankind.  Through Christ, Jesus God revealed Himself unto mankind.  True that was some 2000 years ago but in respect to eternity time has no bearing so it could be considered as an instant ago.  The decision or verdict of Mankind is to decide just how valid that is.  Was Jesus really who He said He was or not.  Remember also it is man, limited human man, who defined and placed an age on Earth and creation, not God nor did God specifically mention it in Scriptures to define it.  Mankind is just presented with the ability to make a choice and presented with the opportunity to worship or to deny and to reject.  As for the implications of those decisions one has to rely upon either luck, hope, or what has been written down as of what will occur.

 

again referring to this statement of yours : "the only honest, intellectually sound course of action is to hold the concept of the gods in the highest skepticism"   I would ask WHY then it is the sound course?  Based upon what criteria?  The fact that no God has presented Himself, especially when you have so many and diverse peoples stating that God does exist and that they have had valid reason to accept and believe He exist?  That alone should justify investigation and curiosity, again leading to a justification for the skepticism, which I submit, in some cases, is that God doesn't manifest Himself specifically before those specific individuals which goes back to the initial question as to what would make US worthy or exceptional or warrant that God should do such?


Thus I also submit that it remains a VALID question and one that has yet to be answered sufficiently.

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

gbrk writes: In other words what makes ANY OF US worthy or exceptional that a God, a Deity, a entity so great and powerful (again assumptions for the sake of the question) should do the slightest of things to reveal Himself?  Why should WE Expect that of God in the first place (IF (for the sake of the question ... again) He does exist)?

 

gb, if yours is the real situation, then worship is meaningless.  It's futile and silly.  If god is so utterly sublime that we humans cannot imagine him, then our supplications are the penultimate of folly.

Not only that, but if god is as exceptional as you suggest, then our suppositions to understand and explain him are the most ludicrous of follies.

DF SEZ "I submit, sir, or madame, that the only honest, intellectually sound course of action is to hold the concept of the gods in the highest skepticism.  If he exists, god will forgive us for using the minds he gave us.
He might not forgive us for not using them."

 

 

DF

 

As gbrk says “based on what?”

 

 

I SEZ: DEEP Apparently you have no problem with “discrete , indivisible units of energy” [quanta: the stuff the universe is made of] that only exhibit properties called charge, mass and spin.

 

 

Are you able to visualize any of these properties? Only intuitively with a metric of 3-d space.

No classical law will ever connect one physically to any of these properties yet we all accept that these units of energy are there.

 

 They somehow wad up and become stuff that obey classical laws of gravity but in the quantum world which describes them, all bets are off. We just wonder with “what ifs”.

 

 

We do not know what energy is yet we assign properties to these li’l descrete things.

 

 

A creator to have taken these things and allowed us to experience them classically when they are far from being Newtonian or Euclidian makes complete and the only sense.

Last edited by Quaildog
Originally Posted by vplee123:
Jenn, please don't presume to know what will offend me. What you said doesn't offend me in the least. Disagree, sure. But I was merely stating an example of how people in history have doubted, and God has revealed Himself to them.

=============

You say to unbelievers, basically, oh you don't believe, then how do you explain god revealing himself to so and so? My point, there's  no proof throughout history, of any god revealing himself to anyone, they're just stories passed down like all stories of the gods and even space aliens. They're all things that anyone could claim happened to them, or happened thousands of years ago to someone else.  You don't think people should need proof of a god, yet offer stories  that CAN'T be proven true, as your proof for a god.  And around and around it goes.

gb writes: And I submit that attempts to define or understand God, limited as we are, would be the utmost of futility but rejection of God based upon deciding that God doesn't present Himself to us or go out of His way to us specifically is the utmost of arrogance. 

 

My dear colleague, how fervently may I disagree?

 

The entire endeavor of the Abrahamic religions is defining god and determining his will, as it regards our lives on Earth.

I simply posit that we cannot assume such a god exists until he is defined and demonstrated, and further that assuming his "will' in the absence of evidence that he merely exists is fatuous and ridiculous.

 

If you make the positive statement that god exists, it's up to YOU to demonstrate the premise of your conclusion.  Show me the evidence for the existence of god.  I'll wait right here until you do.

 

Regards,

 

 

DF

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

gb writes: And I submit that attempts to define or understand God, limited as we are, would be the utmost of futility but rejection of God based upon deciding that God doesn't present Himself to us or go out of His way to us specifically is the utmost of arrogance. 

 

My dear colleague, how fervently may I disagree?

 

The entire endeavor of the Abrahamic religions is defining god and determining his will, as it regards our lives on Earth.

I simply posit that we cannot assume such a god exists until he is defined and demonstrated, and further that assuming his "will' in the absence of evidence that he merely exists is fatuous and ridiculous.

 

If you make the positive statement that god exists, it's up to YOU to demonstrate the premise of your conclusion.  Show me the evidence for the existence of god.  I'll wait right here until you do.

 

Regards,

 

 

DF

Each individual has their own criteria or test, if you will, that must be met or overcome in order for their faith or allegiance to be given or granted.  And while that may differ from individual to another there are certainly of every Religion people that attest to and make the decision that there does indeed exist God, a supreme Deity, or Creator and the evidence varies as much as each individual but that doesn't negate that evidence exist sufficient enough to convince one of such. 

 

There are also individuals who do not believe God exist except in the minds of the others that claim to believe but those are but opinions as well and there is no evidence or proof that these other millions are wrong and incorrect but just a personal belief that the evidence that is sufficient enough for them is actually not there or valid at all and in effect a delusion.  Still that is but an opinion to explain away or justify why so many others would accept something that is denied as senseless by those who don't believe. 

 

I submit that the fact that so many, so surely, are convinced and persuaded that God exist, on purely a circumstantial level, suggest that something must be there other than just something delusional or hypothetical.  With respect to God and personal statements of testimony one thing that is unique to Christianity is statements of personal knowledge of the presence of God's Spirit.  Of course it is Christianity alone that presents a case where God bestows upon humankind the ability to have a son-ship or personal relation with Him by virtue of His Holy Spirit granted and given to those who accept and receive Christ Jesus as their Savior.  Also unique to Christianity is a risen, resurrected Savior so while there are many various Religions that testify of their reason for belief none claims the personal relationship such as Christianity even though Christians and Jews worship the same God. 

 

Proof or Evidence, that you would require, is also personal and unique unto you, as it is to various other Atheist or non-believers,  so the real question is, what proof and justification do you require before you are convinced beyond all doubt that God exist?

Well, now, gb, isn't this fun?  I even might get this response in before the Sick Puppies try to horn in on our conversation.

 

Each individual has their own criteria or test, if you will, that must be met or overcome in order for their faith or allegiance to be given or granted.



Since faith and allegiance are emotions, I must grant this point.  However, such personal, emotional conclusions are no reason for anyone who owns them to try to convince others of those conclusions, and Christians and Muslims are commanded to do this.  If people kept whatever religious thoughts they had to themselves, and left others alone about it except when asked, wouldn't the world be a better place?


I submit that the fact that so many, so surely, are convinced and persuaded that God exist, on purely a circumstantial level, suggest that something must be there other than just something delusional or hypothetical.

How would you know?  If you truly were delusional, what appears to you to be self-evident would appear to most people as batspit, barking mad.


It seems that the human mind is not only capable, but darn near compelled, to accept unreasonable things.  Most of us crave and cherish our delusions.  For example, I predict the Dodgers to take it all this year.  This is suggested by the geographical nature of religion.  As a shortcut, let's say we all need  delusion; isn't it interesting why the Chinese delude themselves about Buddha, the Middle Easterners about Allah, and Alabamans about Jesus?


With respect to God and personal statements of testimony one thing that is unique to Christianity is statements of personal knowledge of the presence of God's Spirit.

 No, seriously.  No.

The personal "knowledge" of the presence of god's spirit is the unifying idea behind the Abrahamic religions.  Do you think that Muslims and Jews do not feel their gods, same as you?  They do.


Also unique to Christianity is a risen, resurrected Savior.


So not.    Have you never Googled "resurrected prophets saviors"?  That's the oldest trick in the book, behind some sort of miraculous birth, virginal or otherwise.


the real question is, what proof and justification do you require before you are convinced beyond all doubt that God exist?



Nothing he could not do.  Write his name on the Moon or in the stars so we could see it.  Appear on every TV and computer monitor this Friday at 1:00 Pacific Daylight Time and announce himself.  Poof himself incarnate beside every person in the next 5 minutes.  Then, I would have no choice but to believe.


Belief on faith, on the other hand, is not conducive to further human progress.  One might suspect on faith, one might speculate on faith, but believing on faith is to deny that which makes us human: Our minds.  It is to abandon the intellect, and embrace superstition.


"Faith is believing in something you know ain't so"--Mark Twain, speaking through Pudd'nead Wilson.


I just can't do that.


DF

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

Well, now, gb, isn't this fun?  I even might get this response in before the Sick Puppies try to horn in on our conversation.

 

Each individual has their own criteria or test, if you will, that must be met or overcome in order for their faith or allegiance to be given or granted.



Since faith and allegiance are emotions, I must grant this point.  However, such personal, emotional conclusions are no reason for anyone who owns them to try to convince others of those conclusions, and Christians and Muslims are commanded to do this.  If people kept whatever religious thoughts they had to themselves, and left others alone about it except when asked, wouldn't the world be a better place?


I submit that the fact that so many, so surely, are convinced and persuaded that God exist, on purely a circumstantial level, suggest that something must be there other than just something delusional or hypothetical.

How would you know?  If you truly were delusional, what appears to you to be self-evident would appear to most people as batspit, barking mad.


It seems that the human mind is not only capable, but darn near compelled, to accept unreasonable things.  Most of us crave and cherish our delusions.  For example, I predict the Dodgers to take it all this year.  This is suggested by the geographical nature of religion.  As a shortcut, let's say we all need  delusion; isn't it interesting why the Chinese delude themselves about Buddha, the Middle Easterners about Allah, and Alabamans about Jesus?


With respect to God and personal statements of testimony one thing that is unique to Christianity is statements of personal knowledge of the presence of God's Spirit.

 No, seriously.  No.

The personal "knowledge" of the presence of god's spirit is the unifying idea behind the Abrahamic religions.  Do you think that Muslims and Jews do not feel their gods, same as you?  They do.


Also unique to Christianity is a risen, resurrected Savior.


So not.    Have you never Googled "resurrected prophets saviors"?  That's the oldest trick in the book, behind some sort of miraculous birth, virginal or otherwise.


the real question is, what proof and justification do you require before you are convinced beyond all doubt that God exist?



Nothing he could not do.  Write his name on the Moon or in the stars so we could see it.  Appear on every TV and computer monitor this Friday at 1:00 Pacific Daylight Time and announce himself.  Poof himself incarnate beside every person in the next 5 minutes.  Then, I would have no choice but to believe.


Belief on faith, on the other hand, is not conducive to further human progress.  One might suspect on faith, one might speculate on faith, but believing on faith is to deny that which makes us human: Our minds.  It is to abandon the intellect, and embrace superstition.


"Faith is believing in something you know ain't so"--Mark Twain, speaking through Pudd'nead Wilson.


I just can't do that.


DF

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

Well, now, gb, isn't this fun?  I even might get this response in before the Sick Puppies try to horn in on our conversation.

 

Each individual has their own criteria or test, if you will, that must be met or overcome in order for their faith or allegiance to be given or granted.



Since faith and allegiance are emotions, I must grant this point.  However, such personal, emotional conclusions are no reason for anyone who owns them to try to convince others of those conclusions, and Christians and Muslims are commanded to do this.  If people kept whatever religious thoughts they had to themselves, and left others alone about it except when asked, wouldn't the world be a better place?


I submit that the fact that so many, so surely, are convinced and persuaded that God exist, on purely a circumstantial level, suggest that something must be there other than just something delusional or hypothetical.

How would you know?  If you truly were delusional, what appears to you to be self-evident would appear to most people as batspit, barking mad.


It seems that the human mind is not only capable, but darn near compelled, to accept unreasonable things.  Most of us crave and cherish our delusions.  For example, I predict the Dodgers to take it all this year.  This is suggested by the geographical nature of religion.  As a shortcut, let's say we all need  delusion; isn't it interesting why the Chinese delude themselves about Buddha, the Middle Easterners about Allah, and Alabamans about Jesus?


With respect to God and personal statements of testimony one thing that is unique to Christianity is statements of personal knowledge of the presence of God's Spirit.

 No, seriously.  No.

The personal "knowledge" of the presence of god's spirit is the unifying idea behind the Abrahamic religions.  Do you think that Muslims and Jews do not feel their gods, same as you?  They do.


Also unique to Christianity is a risen, resurrected Savior.


So not.    Have you never Googled "resurrected prophets saviors"?  That's the oldest trick in the book, behind some sort of miraculous birth, virginal or otherwise.


the real question is, what proof and justification do you require before you are convinced beyond all doubt that God exist?



Nothing he could not do.  Write his name on the Moon or in the stars so we could see it.  Appear on every TV and computer monitor this Friday at 1:00 Pacific Daylight Time and announce himself.  Poof himself incarnate beside every person in the next 5 minutes.  Then, I would have no choice but to believe.


Belief on faith, on the other hand, is not conducive to further human progress.  One might suspect on faith, one might speculate on faith, but believing on faith is to deny that which makes us human: Our minds.  It is to abandon the intellect, and embrace superstition.


"Faith is believing in something you know ain't so"--Mark Twain, speaking through Pudd'nead Wilson.


I just can't do that.


DF

*MUST READ** A pastor was traveling last week, he saw an old man, and gave him a lift. While they were going, the old man said; my son, do you know what happened in Heaven last night? The pastor was so terrified and hurriedly parked and asked; Sir, are you sleeping? How did you get the information about Heaven? The Old man said; last night in Heaven God became very angry with man and asked the Angels to blow the trumpet. The angels picked up the trumpets and as they were about to blow it WHEN, Jesus fell down and began to plead in tears. The blood that came out of His hands and body were very fresh. He told God that His death shouldn't be in vain. God couldn't stand the pains of the saint and the wickedness of the evil ones. So He said; "I AM GIVING THEM THEIR LAST CHANCE." Jesus then turned to the angels and told them to move down in their numerous numbers to tell the world that: "THE END IS NEAR, JESUS IS COMING VERY SOON". The pastor [sweating and crying) asked; sir, how did you know this? The OLD MAN replied; I am one of the Angels sent to the World. Please use every medium of communication to send this message. No time to waste, Please! And the old man disappeared. Brethren, this story is real, Christ is coming Soon. PLEASE SAVE A SOUL TODAY. I Have done my part, it's now your turn to spread the Gospel. No wealth can be compared to life everlasting in Heaven. If you are Ready to share this Message, LIKE and write: "AMEN" May God bless you all. AND DO NOT FORGET TO SHARE THIS POST HELP ME SAVE THE WORLD ole deep's eternal home, best stay away bestun

Deep,  rather than recopy/paste our complete dialog before I'll just respond, hopefully as briefly as possible, here to a few statements.  Conclusions being what they are or as you might word it (not that I'm trying to put words in your mouth/mind) delusions being what they are as tit for tat or you say tomato I say tamato given your response in totality I believe that we can both agree we will respectfully disagree on many of the bullet points as well as conclusions.  We are left with our opinions therefore.  

 

One point I surely would want to address is the one regarding intimate/personal knowledge of God/Christ/God's Holy Spirit.  This is totally different and foreign to Judaism and Islam as it is not a personal knowledge as in some mental acclamation unto something being what it is stated to be but rather a form of the Creator/Deity Itself occupying a presence or place within each human being that has accepted God's invitation, through Christ, to accept the provided sacrifice for our failings and fallacies and transgressions.  It is the ONLY way which a perfect sinless being/God/entity can look upon and forgive a totally imperfect and sinful being, such as mankind.  Only through a perfect sacrifice (Christ, sinless) could God be justified in allowing such as sinful being full of sin and failings to pass Judgment justified and sinless (in appearance only as sin guilt was taken away and upon God/Christ blood).  Only then can God's Spirit co-exist with our/mankind's inner created spirit in a sinful body to minister unto that one.  

 

Whereas God's Spirit was said to dwell among the people, of Israel, the New Testament (agreement) with mankind actually means God's Spirit dwells within mankind's physical body so that is totallly different and apart from Islam or Judaism and their teachings.

 

As for the next point, resurrection, there again no other religion has the same existing, living, resurrected savior that they worship.  Other religions may feel their leader or object of their messenger comes back in human form or another human's flesh they do not see their existing savior as resurrected.  Mohammad was buried and other religions are looking for the reincarnation of their deity  but none holds that, teaches that, and believes and accepts that their Savior/Messiah actually lives and continues to live as Christ is and has done and will return.  

 

Ultimately though your concluding statement is totally understandable and most Christians would answer that such visible, tangible, supernatural proof has come in Christ coming to Earth and dwelling among mankind but also  is to come again in a most supernatural way at His second coming/return unto Earth to conclude matters.  Unfortunately though, and it is my belief, that at that time those that see Him return in the sky will not have the invitation to accept him as they might have had one time in their past.

 

You see I don't agree that a person can just be saved at anytime like many would.  I don't see God held to being subject to human will but the otherway around.  I believe and feel that Mankind can ONLY come to a saving knowledge of God, through Christ, when God ENABLES that human person to receive and make that decision.  That Enabling force is through God's Holy Spirit and the conviction of God so thus when mankind eventually does view Christ in a miraculous way, in the future, it most likely will be far too late for most gentiles to make that decision.

 

As for the compelling of Christians to share their faith, different denominations and Christians view that in various ways, some more profound than others.  While all religions or people of all religions seek to promote their religions beliefs there is more a reason for that then some compelling command.  They do so out of concern and caring and a host of other reasons and yes some do feel or believe they are compelled to do so under some threat of punishment if they don't (I suppose).  

 

Again we'll surely agree to disagree on our conclusions and probably on many other things however while I will give you that from a non-believer's perspective it is all opinions and delusions for those who are Saved there is nor more compelling evidence and proof than God's Holy Spirit which is all sufficient to those who are Saved and although that cannot be imparted unto another if it's viewed or construed as delusion then so be it deluded we shall be and remain for there is no stronger and compelling evidence to persuade otherwise therefore we attest to it verbally and openly.  And thus we disagree again  but hopefully, always, respectfully.

Gbrk, you are well over deep's head. He won’t respond. You have given him a large dose. He does have some canned rhetoric he can throw out in hopes of changing the subject.  Watch what I tell you.

   He has some grandiose idea that by his dead reckoning he will lead you off to hell without the “Great Map The Bible”.

Don't fear or concern yourself that I'll be challenged in my faith as there is, was, and has been far more sufficient proof/evidence that there isn't 1% doubt.  I did though attempt to reason, from a philosophical type argument, injecting reason or questioning what physical evidence would cause Deep to question his apparent sense of certainty but as you and I know the assurance, proof, evidence, provided the Christian is far more concrete than some physical event or physical manifestation but rather a Spiritual one which is far more intimate and profound, for the believer, but impossible to relate and persuade another of. So thank you for the concern but I stand unmovable in my Faith.

Originally Posted by gbrk:

So thank you for the concern but I stand unmovable in my Faith.

______

I wouldn't & have never tried to remove anyone from their faith. BUT........I have tried to get those that has faith to prove to me that God is real & does exist but none can do it. You may say my mind is closed, but why would I close my mind to something I want to know? Be sort of silly for me to want to know something, & then say I was going to close my mind so I wouldn't hear.

What amazes me is those people that keep praying knowing God has never answered a prayer. Oh, they will say He answered it, just not in the way they expected/wanted. That's a cop-out, not being rude, that's just the way it sounds to me.

gb,

 

We may agree to disagree on the indemonstrable, but that includes your god.  I'm not accusing you of this, but those imbeciles who insist on a 6000 year old Earth are demonstrably wrong, and I will not agree to disagree with them.  Same for Creationists who deny evolution.

 

Regarding the resurrection, it seems such was rather banal at the time.  Jesus resurrected two or three people, and upon his death, if you believe one of the Gospels, 500 saints were resurrected.  It's hardly unique, in the mythology, and not the stuff for which one might say Jesus is singular.

 

"Saved"?  From what?  We know there were no Adam and Eve, per se, and therefor no Original Sin from which to be saved.  We are who we are born to be, most of us good.

 

You may not threaten the "unsaved" with Hell and consider proselytizing as any sort of good.  You see, gb, any sort of philosophy that depends on the threat of violence in order to convince people is intrinsically flawed.  It's bullying and extortion, nothing less.  If you disagree with me, I will not beat you up, nor will I threaten you with an eternity of torment.  We'll just go grab a beer and change the subject.

Your delusion may be sufficient to you, but it is not for me.  Nor do I want to live under any delusion of substance, Dodgers notwithstanding.  You see, gb, the truth matters to me.  I want to believe in as many true things as I can, and remain skeptical about all the things that don't make logical or evidential sense as possible. I seek the truth.  I don't claim to know it, and I insist you don't know it either.  We are merely humans.  African apes gone a bit smart, but not all that smart, I imagine.  There's where the Bible and Jesus and Moses and Mohammed get in the way.  Otherwise perfectly intelligent people deny evolution and demonstrated cosmology because it contradicts an ancient book of mythology.  The New Testament Gospels were written as mythology in the current tradition of the time.  I suggest you introduce yourself to Dr. Richard Carrier, either in print or on YouTube.  We can get smarter, and find our true place in the Universe, if we abandon the primitive superstitions of religion.

 

I'd rather live my 80 years or so in the increasing knowledge of my real existence, than in the unlikely hope that this is all a test for a future of cloying, eternal "joy".  Or eternal suffering. Both of which, I must point out, are entirely without evidence.  Life is self-evident.  One may believe in life without any embarrassment.  One should be embarrassed to believe in a life after death that is, at best, wishful thinking and a fear of the dark.

 

So, I have to ask you one question:  Are you with me on the Dodgers?

 

Best,

 

DF

sez deep"I'd rather live my 80 years or so in the increasing knowledge of my real existence, than in the unlikely hope that this is all a test for a future of cloying, eternal "joy". '"

I'M calling out the BS team on you here deep.

 

    I tell you what deep, since I've heard this claim before by you;

 

in narrative form ,if you will,  spell out for us a week in your life " increasing knowledge of my real existence". it would do us all good. Remember the title of this  is " increasing knowledge of my real existence" to include how it's done in recipe. there is only one condition to this challenge; There must be NO waxing to the abstract since you do not allow it for believers. For example: pinching yourself daily would count but dwelling on what your cat thinks about you or your luuuve for it does not. You may enlist Best for any difficult parts that come up.

Originally Posted by gbrk:

Don't fear or concern yourself that I'll be challenged in my faith as there is, was, and has been far more sufficient proof/evidence that there isn't 1% doubt.  I did though attempt to reason, from a philosophical type argument, injecting reason or questioning what physical evidence would cause Deep to question his apparent sense of certainty but as you and I know the assurance, proof, evidence, provided the Christian is far more concrete than some physical event or physical manifestation but rather a Spiritual one which is far more intimate and profound, for the believer, but impossible to relate and persuade another of. So thank you for the concern but I stand unmovable in my Faith.

hg> worded very well, i agree with your beliefs<><

Myself, I have the scientific proof of God the creator. He has never contacted me personally but I anticipate his wishes and perform them to the best of my abilities. My lead is always the teachings of Jesus.  I temper my decisions in life by accepting the Olden Testament as a collection of what-not-to-do’s.  Just to pick one at random I will select “wars” as an example. If a society had never waged a war there should be enough examples on the Olden Testament to advise of it’s perils to that society and discourage it’s use.  It’s simple, even a cave man can believe in God  if he did nothing but look out of his cave.

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

Chomondeley notwithstanding, we have not beaten my point to death by any means.  Crumb writes: 

 

As for the 'cogent response'.I think everyone has been around that track a few thousands times.

 

To repeat, in order to ask the gods into my heart and head, I must first believe in them.  At least I must accept the likelihood of their existence.  Mustn't I?  Otherwise, I'd be like the Rabbi in Jerusalem... talking to a wall.

 

DF

You dam ned old idiot. Are you still at it? Have you not found thousands of fellow idiots in California to commune with? 

Originally Posted by Quaildog:

Myself, I have the scientific proof of God the creator. He has never contacted me personally but I anticipate his wishes and perform them to the best of my abilities. My lead is always the teachings of Jesus.  I temper my decisions in life by accepting the Olden Testament as a collection of what-not-to-do’s.  Just to pick one at random I will select “wars” as an example. If a society had never waged a war there should be enough examples on the Olden Testament to advise of it’s perils to that society and discourage it’s use.  It’s simple, even a cave man can believe in God  if he did nothing but look out of his cave.

hg> ditto<><


VIC> OK, nobody is seeking god, wrap it up.

hg> some of us are constantly seeking God and His will for us.

So thank you for the concern but I stand unmovable in my Faith.

 

GB, faith is the excuse we give each other to believe the unbelievable.  When one hears the word "faith" one can substitute "Pretend". 

 

"I have faith in the god of the Bible" can be substituted for saying "I pretend that the god of the Bible is real".

Faith is neither a virtue nor a defensible reason for accepting any premise.

 

 

DF

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

So thank you for the concern but I stand unmovable in my Faith.

 

GB, faith is the excuse we give each other to believe the unbelievable.  When one hears the word "faith" one can substitute "Pretend". 

 

"I have faith in the god of the Bible" can be substituted for saying "I pretend that the god of the Bible is real".

Faith is neither a virtue nor a defensible reason for accepting any premise.

 

 

DF

Oh I couldn't disagree more (big surprise, right?).  Faith is assurance when one has no physical evidence to base certainty on, at least that's one way to put it.  You can use the word pretend however I would suggest that this is just a justification to alleviate having to confront the possibility of a wrong choice or incorrect assumption.  But for now let me address the issue of faith and pretend and believe the unbelievable. 

 

Try as you will the use of statements or words of definite or dogmatic nature, with regards to denying God, Creator or a Deity, that still none the less negates the possibility or probability that such exist, or as I would say the assurance that God exist.

 

Now for the issue of Faith and your using pretend to substitute for it.  When I go and drive my vehicle across the local bridges I don't pretend that they will stand up and carry me across but I have faith in their ability to do so because I have faith that the engineers that designed them calculated the proper loads and faith that the concrete that was used was of the correct strength and faith that those who constructed the bridge put all the bolts in the right place and made sure that it would be functional and that the bridge inspectors did their job.  That Faith is not pretending as in saying or believing something I know to be untrue or false or that I very much would believe would be false.  There are many other examples of faith but faith is well defined by the Scriptures in


Hebrews 11:1  (NIV) "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." 

 

I'm sorry but I very much reject that pretending has anything to do with it. 

Our dear gb writes:

Oh I couldn't disagree more (big surprise, right?).  Faith is assurance when one has no physical evidence to base certainty on, at least that's one way to put it.  You can use the word pretend however I would suggest that this is just a justification to alleviate having to confront the possibility of a wrong choice or incorrect assumption.

 

gb, how shall I count the ways?

 

On what do you base your certainty?  Wishful thinking?  Superstition?  Tradition?  An evil, counterproductive meme?  You have no certainty.  Certainty in the indemonstrable is what drives college-educated men into flying jets into high rises.

 

Have you considered the Christian value of humility?  Could you be wrong?  Certainty, especially in the indemonstrable, is far from humble.

 

You might suspect that I take great pride in my humility.   *waiting for applause*

 

Seriously, amigo, competing certainties are at the root of religious friction.  When Muslims are certain that they are right, and Christians are certain that they are right, and their dogmas are incompatible, that's when humans go to arms.

 

Relax.  You know that you can't all be right.  If you say that you are right, to the exclusion of other certainties, you must imagine that they can say the same thing.  Especially when there is NO evidence for either side.

 

Let's say I'm certain that a pink, invisible unicorn lives in my garage.  She lays eggs of diamond, big as softballs.  I keep them for a special occassion.   I'm certain, and my best evidence for this is that you cannot prove me wrong.  How is this argument any different from god, heaven, eternal life, etc?

 

Think, gb.

 

Think.  Be brave.  Think.  Be honest with yourself.

 

You have no evidence for believing in god.  Your best evidence for him is that I cannot disprove him in a concrete manner, although I can come pretty dam-ned close.

 

Are you pretending to believe, or do you really believe?  Are you going through the motions, living up to the expectations of your neighbors, or would you accept the Bible as fact if you had only read it for the first time last week?

 

Thanks for the convo.

 

DF

 

 

 

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

Our dear gb writes:

Oh I couldn't disagree more (big surprise, right?).  Faith is assurance when one has no physical evidence to base certainty on, at least that's one way to put it.  You can use the word pretend however I would suggest that this is just a justification to alleviate having to confront the possibility of a wrong choice or incorrect assumption.

 

gb, how shall I count the ways?

 

On what do you base your certainty?  Wishful thinking?  Superstition?  Tradition?  An evil, counterproductive meme?  You have no certainty.  Certainty in the indemonstrable is what drives college-educated men into flying jets into high rises.

 

Have you considered the Christian value of humility?  Could you be wrong?  Certainty, especially in the indemonstrable, is far from humble.

 

You might suspect that I take great pride in my humility.   *waiting for applause*

 

Seriously, amigo, competing certainties are at the root of religious friction.  When Muslims are certain that they are right, and Christians are certain that they are right, and their dogmas are incompatible, that's when humans go to arms.

 

Relax.  You know that you can't all be right.  If you say that you are right, to the exclusion of other certainties, you must imagine that they can say the same thing.  Especially when there is NO evidence for either side.

 

Let's say I'm certain that a pink, invisible unicorn lives in my garage.  She lays eggs of diamond, big as softballs.  I keep them for a special occassion.   I'm certain, and my best evidence for this is that you cannot prove me wrong.  How is this argument any different from god, heaven, eternal life, etc?

 

Think, gb.

 

Think.  Be brave.  Think.  Be honest with yourself.

 

You have no evidence for believing in god.  Your best evidence for him is that I cannot disprove him in a concrete manner, although I can come pretty dam-ned close.

 

Are you pretending to believe, or do you really believe?  Are you going through the motions, living up to the expectations of your neighbors, or would you accept the Bible as fact if you had only read it for the first time last week?

 

Thanks for the convo.

 

DF

 

 

 

DF Dearest, it would be criminal for us to allow this opportunity to pass; please if you would.

that I cannot disprove him in a concrete manner, although I can come pretty dam-ned close“.

 

Are you lying to us?  I think so.

 

   What will be the "model"  The big Bang has already used the God model of just hiking a leg and there it is. ...so we must insist of you to find a unique model with which to plug the many accessories no doubt required for such a task. Atomic scientists have already used the solar system model of things circling about to calm our feeble minds about the atom. ....so what will it be? Huh?

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