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Should Pastors Be Paid A Salary?

Hi to all my Forum Friends,

In the discussion begun by Henhouse titled "Moral Dilemma" -- the question of a church supporting its pastor is raised. In support of pastors being paid a salary, Joy tells us, "The Church in Bible times took care of the needs of preachers. I don't see why it's a problem if we do the same?"

And, Henhouse responds to her, "A point of distinction: There is not an example in the Bible of a church paying a guy to be their permanent "local preacher" whose main function is to preach to them each week.

They supported preachers as missionaries carrying the gospel to new areas, and when missionary preachers like Paul came to their areas they helped provide for them while they were there, as good hosts and enabling the preacher to do his work while there, but Paul worked a secular job as well to support himself.

I might also point out that even those preachers were Apostles. Modern day preachers are certainly not, so to treat them as Apostles would be a mistake, in my opinion."


Henhouse, I promise you, God will not punish you if you vote to NOT pay your pastor a salary. He will not punish you if you withhold your offerings because the pastor is being paid a salary.

But, let me ask you -- where you work, are you paid a salary? Could you afford to stay on that job if you were not paid a salary? Assuming you decided, because of your dedication, to stay on the job without a salary -- who will feed, cloth, and house you and your family, since you have no income?

Well, guess what? The pastor and his family have the same needs. You may choose to not pay your pastor a salary; but, how long can he afford to stay in that position without any income?

Yes, I have seen many pastors of small churches take on the pastoral responsibilities while, at the same time, holding down a full time job. I saw a very dedicated Filipino pastor of a small church in Orange County, California, who worked as a janitor at the Crystal Cathedral to support his family -- so that he could pastor the church God had given him.

What happens in such a case? Well, for one thing, many times when a church member or his/her family needs the pastor to come to comfort them, to advise them, or in some other way, to counsel them, or to visit them in the hospital -- he may not be available because he is at his full time job. But, since most pastors are pretty dedicated people -- many will still come to your home or to the hospital in times of need -- even though they are exhausted from working all day at their full time job.

What effect does this have on the church? Well, it is obvious that the pastor is going to exhaust himself -- and his messages, his teachings, may not be up to par. What then? Will you blame him for not doing a good job in his teachings? Whose fault would that be -- if he is forced to work full time in an outside job while trying to be a full time pastor?

But, Henhouse, I am confused. Why are you against the church paying the pastor a salary? Yes, there are pastors who will abuse this blessing from God. We see many television pastors who are living in mansions, driving expensive cars, and living the jet-set lifestyle. These folks are obvious -- and God will have a few words for them one day.

There are others who are not so obvious. I mentioned in an earlier post about a pastor who made his brother the only elder of the church -- and then, he and his elder voted to buy the pastor a new car from church funds. This was wrong.

Friends of mine moved to Santa Barbara about 15 years ago. They found a church and became members. At that time, the church had about 100 members. Slowly, the church membership began to shrink to where they had only about 70 members. Yet, the pastor, who was at that time getting a salary of $70,000 -- asked for a raise.

I told my Friend he should suggest to the pastor that if he wants a raise -- he should go out and bring more members into the church, i.e., do some evangelizing and door knocking -- so that the church could afford to give him a raise. Personally, at that time and place -- my feelings were that this pastor was being very well paid, over paid. He was wrong in asking for a raise above what he was getting -- while the church membership was shrinking.

But, as we all know -- there are people who will take advantage of any situation. This should not taint our attitude toward those many thousands of dedicated pastors who are struggling to make ends meet -- while still giving 110% in doing God's work among and for the congregation.

One last thought, in the late 1990s, our senior pastor was going to leave the pastorate and become a full time church planter. Our elders recruited a doctoral candidate from a seminary in Oregon. He agreed that he and his family would move to Southern California and pastor the church for the paltry sum of $1800 a month.

However, before he moved down to California, things changed in the church and they found that they could not pay him more than $1200 a month. This is a man who was CEO of a successful company before leaving that to enter seminary. This is a man who had a wife and three small children. This man trusted God enough that he accepted this lower salary and became our pastor.

That was over 15 years ago -- and that church has since tripled the number of members and is a thriving church. The pastor knowing he needed more income -- at first, did engineering consulting work on the side -- while working hard to grow the church spiritually and numerically.

In other words, he worked hard to grow the church to the point where it could afford to pay him a decent salary. This is just the opposite approach taken by the pastor in Santa Barbara who left the church because they would not raise his salary while their church was shrinking. By the way, that church in Santa Barbara is happy and thriving today -- with a new pastor.

No, Henhouse, we should not expect people to pay us for working -- if we are not willing to pay our pastors who work for us.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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My answer is no...ever wonder how many preachers would still serve the Lord, if they didn't have a nice salary, house to live in with everything paid for???? Even when young I didn't think it was right for preachers to get paid and I do not think being a preacher should be the same as working for a company??!!
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by buffalo:
No.

Hi Buffalo,

I am assuming that you are saying that pastors should not be paid a salary.

Are you getting paid at your job? What would you do at your job if the company decided to stop paying you a salary?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
I would start preaching, writing religious materials and selling the Bible info like I invented it and hold anyone accountable that wrote anything Biblical as plagiarist. What would you do?
---------------------------------
However Bill, I will take the position of Diogenes and not make a fuss about it.
Some orders of priests take vows of poverty.
I think this allows them to give up things that are materialistic, and devote their lives to the Lord.
Doesn't work for Parish priests, though. They have to eat, buy clothes, entertainment, etc.

In denominations in which the pastors are married, it is inconceivable that they could not take a salary- they have a family to support.
True religious life (ie in a Monastery or Convent) is the only place this would work.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Some orders of priests take vows of poverty.
I think this allows them to give up things that are materialistic, and devote their lives to the Lord. Doesn't work for Parish priests, though. They have to eat, buy clothes, entertainment, etc.

In denominations in which the pastors are married, it is inconceivable that they could not take a salary- they have a family to support.

True religious life (ie in a Monastery or Convent) is the only place this would work.

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A preacher only preaches twice on Sunday & once on Wednesday. He can hold down a job like anyone else that goes to church & visits the sick.


I disagree, Semi, with all due respect.
Our Pastor has to have time to prepare his sermons, counsel the parishoners, prepare and teach adult education and Sunday school, hear confessions, daily Mass (yes, every day except his "off" day, etc, etc. There is a constant flow of people into his office all week. He takes one day off per week.
I think perhaps we are talking about apples and oranges here, and if so, I apologize- but is being a Pastor not a full time job in itself?
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
A preacher only preaches twice on Sunday & once on Wednesday. He can hold down a job like anyone else that goes to church & visits the sick.


but he also has to study and prepare the sermons, he is also supposed to be available to his congregation - to talk, for counciling, for weddings, make hospital visits, do funerals,
if the church is of sufficent size, yeah, it really can be a full time job and is deserving of a salary.

i do think that a preacher shouldnt' be able to thrive - to get wealthy for his work for the church, but it's also to much to expect them to be available to the elders and congration 24/7 preach, prep the sermons and do research for them, and work another full time job to support his family.

now...if it's a little podunk country church.. little tiny congregation, no offices, no staff, just the preacher and maybe a song leader... nah.. you're talkin 4 hours work a week, tops... they don't need a salary.
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
A preacher only preaches twice on Sunday & once on Wednesday. He can hold down a job like anyone else that goes to church & visits the sick.

but he also has to study and prepare the sermons, he is also supposed to be available to his congregation - to talk, for counciling, for weddings, make hospital visits, do funerals,
if the church is of sufficent size, yeah, it really can be a full time job and is deserving of a salary.

i do think that a preacher shouldnt' be able to thrive - to get wealthy for his work for the church, but it's also to much to expect them to be available to the elders and congration 24/7 preach, prep the sermons and do research for them, and work another full time job to support his family.

now...if it's a little podunk country church.. little tiny congregation, no offices, no staff, just the preacher and maybe a song leader... nah.. you're talkin 4 hours work a week, tops... they don't need a salary.

Hi Nagel,

I agree with everything you said -- up to the last paragraph. Drawing a parallel -- if you, Nagel, work for a big company, you should be paid. But, if you, Nagel, work for a small, podunk company -- they need not pay you, right?

In reality, what you will find is that many who pastor small podunk churches -- pastor two or three of them at the same time, splitting his time between them.

And, most pastors who only have a small church do not get a salary in the beginning. As I said, I have known a number of pastors who worked outside -- some in professional positions, others in menial jobs such as janitors -- just to get by.

But, when that church begins to grow, most often because of the pastor's dedication and hard work -- at some point he goes on salary and can dedicate himself full time to growing the church -- spiritually and numerically.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Yes, a fulltime pastor should get paid. It is job as well as a calling. He should be available for counseling, spend time visiting the sick and shutins, planning worship services, be involved in church actvities, etc. His job is not just to give a speech every Sunday. He should be a leader of the church, but not have the power to run the church and spend the church's money any way he wants to. He must work with the church's elders and members for the good of the church. If he does not perfom his job duties satsfactorily, he should be reprimanded or fired, same as any other job. His salary should be based on the financial abilities of the church.
Most pastors work all hours of the day and night. I cannot imagine expecting them to work a full time job on top of that.

This falls into the category of neither strictly condoned nor strictly forbidden by scripture. It's a modern day practice due to modern day jobs given to pastors, as well as any other paid employee of churches. I don't know that pastors are actually paid for their preaching. They would feel compelled to do that whether they are paid or not. It's the umpteen hundred other duties for which they are paid.

JMHO
Hmm, question for those of you with elders in your churches...do your elders and/or deacons take care of the administrative responsibilities of the church? Do they take care of counseling those that ask for counseling, visiting the sick and those unable to come to church (nursing home, prison, bedridden), intervention when someone is in serious trouble & asks for help, etc.?

I do wish we had both elders and deacons in SBC...the reason, IMO, for both is that each requires a different personality type. It's difficult to essentially take on both roles as a deacon in SBC.
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
Hmm, question for those of you with elders in your churches...do your elders and/or deacons take care of the administrative responsibilities of the church? Do they take care of counseling those that ask for counseling, visiting the sick and those unable to come to church (nursing home, prison, bedridden), intervention when someone is in serious trouble & asks for help, etc.?

I do wish we had both elders and deacons in SBC...the reason, IMO, for both is that each requires a different personality type. It's difficult to essentially take on both roles as a deacon in SBC.

Joy,

COC has deacons over all administrative tasks of the congregation including benevolence, building and missions.

Elders deal directly with the preacher, worship service, visiting members sick or otherwise and the deacons answer directly to the elders.

There are elders meetings and elders, deacons and preacher meetings.

The preacher does not attend elders meetings unless specifically invited.

There is no intervention. The congregation and family members are expected to intervene on personal levels.

The elders certainly have that authority if needed.

The elders to a great extent recommend sermon series to the preacher.

As you can see the preacher in COC is just a member.

I answered ‘no’ to Bills question but that would be in the perfect situation where members do their job.

Since that ain’t gonna happen we pay folks to do our job for us and we should pay the preacher well for our laziness.

I’m just one opinion in the assemblage so why fuss.

If I was not clear, or if I left something out, feel free to interrogate further on the subject.
Paul while he was preaching at Corinth took Wages from the Church in Macedonia.

2Cor 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them that I might minister unto you;
2Cor 11:9 and when I was present with you and was in want, I was not a burden on any man; for the brethren, when they came from Macedonia, supplied the measure of my want; and in everything I kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself .

Also you can pay an Elder if he devotes full time at the duties of an Elder.

1Tim 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and in teaching.
1Tim 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn. And, The laborer is worthy of his hire.

The Bible also refers to Elders as overseers, Pastors, Bishops.

A lot of Churches of Christ have taken it a step farther and Pay Song Leaders, nowhere does it say that you can Pay a Songleader. if you could pay somebody to Lead Singing, what would be wrong with having People specializing in Praying and then the Church Paying them for leading Prayer?
all of you know that there are three different Churches of Christ, there is the Conservative, which I am a member of, the only Person we Pay is the Preacher.

then there is the Liberal, they have watched you people until they say "Look how much fun they are having" so they have a lot of catered Suppers and the Church pays for it, nearly all Coc in Quad Cities are Liberal, then there is the ultra Liberal, I am sure that there is more but the only one I can name is Magnolia Coc in Florence.

but the question was can Pastors be paid a Salary? and the answer is yes, and and you can Pay Preachers too, I proved that the Church at Macedonia sent Paul Wages.
quote:
I proved that the Church at Macedonia sent Paul Wages.


That was back when they were missionaries.

The apostles are not around now.

Folk are supposed to do those tasks today. The payment comes later.

You may be conservative relative to present standards but placed along first century folk I doubt if the conservative assemblages of today would even be on the scale.

[“I] proved that the Church at Macedonia sent Paul Wages.” [prince albert]
Hummmm I have a problem with that.
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
Hmm, question for those of you with elders in your churches...do your elders and/or deacons take care of the administrative responsibilities of the church? Do they take care of counseling those that ask for counseling, visiting the sick and those unable to come to church (nursing home, prison, bedridden), intervention when someone is in serious trouble & asks for help, etc.?

I do wish we had both elders and deacons in SBC...the reason, IMO, for both is that each requires a different personality type. It's difficult to essentially take on both roles as a deacon in SBC.


UMC member here (Methodist). The pastor is the primary source for counseling. We have numerous committees for the Administrative work - all volunteers, not paid. Pastor-Parish relations is the committee for pastor issues. Finance committee -finances, and the Administrative council is made up of members/chairpersons of all committees. No one person has ultimate authority.
quote:
Originally posted by canade:
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
Hmm, question for those of you with elders in your churches...do your elders and/or deacons take care of the administrative responsibilities of the church? Do they take care of counseling those that ask for counseling, visiting the sick and those unable to come to church (nursing home, prison, bedridden), intervention when someone is in serious trouble & asks for help, etc.?

I do wish we had both elders and deacons in SBC...the reason, IMO, for both is that each requires a different personality type. It's difficult to essentially take on both roles as a deacon in SBC.


UMC member here (Methodist). The pastor is the primary source for counseling. We have numerous committees for the Administrative work - all volunteers, not paid. Pastor-Parish relations is the committee for pastor issues. Finance committee -finances, and the Administrative council is made up of members/chairpersons of all committees. No one person has ultimate authority.


Yes canade and when the committees and the Bible fail to resolve an issue you have the discipline as authority.

I just had to say that cannade. I’m just being sarcastic. Pay no mind. I have no problem with your Book of Discipline. I’m sure, like any other assemblage, if you tried to enforce it you would get your ears boxed.

I love the Methodist people. They all seem to pay attention to the details of finer things and are great historians plus they all have money.
astrologers, fortune tellers, tarot card readers, water diviners, witch doctors, acupuncturists, chiropractors, snake oil salesmen, psychics and magicians all get paid for fooling people out of their money and it's 100% legal (mostly). why not a preacher?

except for magicians, i find it all morally repugnant but morality has never figured much into religion.
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:

now...if it's a little podunk country church.. little tiny congregation, no offices, no staff, just the preacher and maybe a song leader... nah.. you're talkin 4 hours work a week, tops... they don't need a salary.


A "podunk" church doesn't deserve any less of a sermon or lessons or studies than a larger church. To prepare properly for just one sermon takes several hours. If a pastor is "just" preaching Sunday morning Sunday night and leading a study on Wednesday night, those things would be about 4 hours a weeks. Proper preparation time would be in the neighborhood of 4 hours or more for each one of those. Now it's up to at least 16/wk before any visits, funerals, weddings, meetings, administration, church events outside of worship, counseling or continuing education. Even in the small church there can be a signifiant amount of one's week needed to be pastor.
quote:
Originally posted by buffalo:
quote:
Originally posted by canade:
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
Hmm, question for those of you with elders in your churches...do your elders and/or deacons take care of the administrative responsibilities of the church? Do they take care of counseling those that ask for counseling, visiting the sick and those unable to come to church (nursing home, prison, bedridden), intervention when someone is in serious trouble & asks for help, etc.?

I do wish we had both elders and deacons in SBC...the reason, IMO, for both is that each requires a different personality type. It's difficult to essentially take on both roles as a deacon in SBC.


UMC member here (Methodist). The pastor is the primary source for counseling. We have numerous committees for the Administrative work - all volunteers, not paid. Pastor-Parish relations is the committee for pastor issues. Finance committee -finances, and the Administrative council is made up of members/chairpersons of all committees. No one person has ultimate authority.


Yes canade and when the committees and the Bible fail to resolve an issue you have the discipline as authority.

I just had to say that cannade. I’m just being sarcastic. Pay no mind. I have no problem with your Book of Discipline. I’m sure, like any other assemblage, if you tried to enforce it you would get your ears boxed.

I love the Methodist people. They all seem to pay attention to the details of finer things and are great historians plus they all have money.


If all else fails, we have the District Superintendant and the Council of Bishops to resolve our issues too. Wink

Edit: We use the Discipline more to make sure the Administrative policies (how to run the church effectively) are followed, not to run the lives of members. At least, that is the way it is done in my small country po-dunk church.

We are kind of watered-down Catholics, except we don't have priests, we don't honor the saints, and we don't serve real wine in Communion. We will, however, speak to each other in the liquor store! LOL

LOL that's okay, I have a sense of humor! Smiler I will have to disagree about one thing, we don't all have money, I'm as poor as the proverbial church mouse! LOL

To Jennifer - I can only speak from my experience. Most of the pastors for UMC churches have at least had some courses and training in counseling. Not professional counselors, but a trusted someone you can talk to about your problems, get an impartial view, pray with about, etc., or even recommend professional counseling. I'm sorry if I misled you to believe I meant professional certified counseling.
and, of course, some counselors are in it just for the nooky. http://losangeles.cbslocal.com...ship-with-teen-girl/

and this 'un: http://news.exchristian.net/20...s-guilty-to-sex.html

and http://www.newsfirst5.com/news...mits-sexual-assault/

god, that is enough to ruiun a day. sorry about that.

the "church counselor" that married my wife and i was arrested a few years ago for beating the stew out of his wife. i've not gotten around to re-doing my vows.
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
and, of course, some counselors are in it just for the nooky. http://losangeles.cbslocal.com...ship-with-teen-girl/

and this 'un: http://news.exchristian.net/20...s-guilty-to-sex.html

and http://www.newsfirst5.com/news...mits-sexual-assault/

god, that is enough to ruiun a day. sorry about that.

the "church counselor" that married my wife and i was arrested a few years ago for beating the stew out of his wife. i've not gotten around to re-doing my vows.


Dude, you might have found some kind of golden loophole.
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
I'm sorry if I misled you to believe I meant professional certified counseling.

You didn't mislead me, I just wondered what qualified a preacher to counsel people.


I've found that not only do "preachers" feel they are qualified counselors, but so do many lay people.

There's a lot more to counseling than saying; "Let's pray together".
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
and, of course, some counselors are in it just for the nooky. http://losangeles.cbslocal.com...ship-with-teen-girl/

and this 'un: http://news.exchristian.net/20...s-guilty-to-sex.html

and http://www.newsfirst5.com/news...mits-sexual-assault/

god, that is enough to ruiun a day. sorry about that.

the "church counselor" that married my wife and i was arrested a few years ago for beating the stew out of his wife. i've not gotten around to re-doing my vows.


Uno,

I charge you with plagiarism.

I published this theory long ago.
quote:
Originally posted by jefft:
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
Quick question-why would a preacher be qualified to counsel anyone?

Some are certified counselors, some psychologists. Others limit themselves to counseling of spiritual matters and refer things beyond that to others who are certified and/or credentialed.

Hi Jefft,

Very well explained. Many pastors, after finishing their seminary work to gain their Masters in Theology or Divinity -- go on to work toward getting a degree in psychology or Christian counseling. These are qualified to counsel folks on emotional issues.

Other pastors, as you said, limit themselves to counseling only on spiritual matters -- for which most are imminently qualified.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
A preacher only preaches twice on Sunday & once on Wednesday. He can hold down a job like anyone else that goes to church & visits the sick.

but he also has to study and prepare the sermons, he is also supposed to be available to his congregation - to talk, for counciling, for weddings, make hospital visits, do funerals,
if the church is of sufficent size, yeah, it really can be a full time job and is deserving of a salary.

i do think that a preacher shouldnt' be able to thrive - to get wealthy for his work for the church, but it's also to much to expect them to be available to the elders and congration 24/7 preach, prep the sermons and do research for them, and work another full time job to support his family.

now...if it's a little podunk country church.. little tiny congregation, no offices, no staff, just the preacher and maybe a song leader... nah.. you're talkin 4 hours work a week, tops... they don't need a salary.

Hi Nagel,

I agree with everything you said -- up to the last paragraph. Drawing a parallel -- if you, Nagel, work for a big company, you should be paid. But, if you, Nagel, work for a small, podunk company -- they need not pay you, right?

In reality, what you will find is that many who pastor small podunk churches -- pastor two or three of them at the same time, splitting his time between them.

And, most pastors who only have a small church do not get a salary in the beginning. As I said, I have known a number of pastors who worked outside -- some in professional positions, others in menial jobs such as janitors -- just to get by.

But, when that church begins to grow, most often because of the pastor's dedication and hard work -- at some point he goes on salary and can dedicate himself full time to growing the church -- spiritually and numerically.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


ok. g'head . pay him.
he works 4 hours a week, pay him for 4 hours a week.
i figure 10 bucks an hour is a pretty good hourly rate, so he gets 40 bucks a week.
i got no problem with that.

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