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quote:
Originally posted by BFred07:
Watching Bill and VP debate a biblical subject (both seemingly decent Christians who are also polar opposites) is educating to me and really makes me think on some subjects. For the question about dieing during the act of adultery without repenting I have an opinion but am starting to question it a little.
We have Bill's opinion on the question so lets step it up a notch. What if the adulterous act in question also happens to be a homosexual act? Do you still think the person would get the free pass to Heaven?


This is one of the main problems I have with the CoC and Catholics. Somehow we're all suppose to die in a state of perfection?

Let's say I'm everyone's idea of a great Christian 99% of the time. Then one day I'm driving down the road and someone pulls out in front of me and won't go - this happens often where I live, but I digress - and I react with my middle finger and a few choice bad words...then I run into the ditch and die. My bad thoughts (and actions) were sins right? Do I go straight to the hot basement for that? Isn't this where God's grace comes in?
quote:
This is one of the main problems I have with the CoC and Catholics. Somehow we're all suppose to die in a state of perfection?

If we all die in a state of perfection, we don't need Heaven. Smiler

Being only associated with Catholics and not being one, my feeling is God looks over all the deeds of your life. Good, bad, neutral and I do believe that there are different degrees to sin.
One moment of a lost temper is hardly equal to killing another person or stealing from a poor man.

So I would say, no, Butter, you get the ac condo!
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Bill Gray had been in error.

And I believe Bill Gray STILL to be in error, citing false doctrines and leading others astray, with this "feel good" once-saved free gift bologna.

Hi VP,

Bill Gray does not say this; the Bible, in Ephesians 2:8-9, says it.

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

So, VP, I must ask you: Is the Bible lying? Is the Bible just a lot of bologna?

Bill


It is a perversion of the truth to say you can sin all you want and at the last minute, before your last breath, say an 11 second "sinners prayer" and still be saved. God is smarter than that. You and the high priests of Christianity fail to recognize the verses after Eph 2:8-9.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

There are no shortcuts Mr. Gray, getting saved is a life long process, which includes Christ doing the good works in us. The Apostle Paul knew this well, which is why he wrote...

1Co 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
1Co 9:25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
1Co 9:26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
1Co 9:27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Paul likens getting saved to a race which must be run to the finish. He then explains how we are to run the race, by self control and discipline. Paul knew if he did not run the race in a way as described, then he would be disqualified. So can a sinner who has said the "sinners prayer" at the last moment say he has finished the race, without ever racing? What do you think?

quote:

Yes, salvation is most certainly given to all who will seek Him -- by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ (plus nothing else) we are saved - a gift from God, not by ANY works we might do (Ephesians 2:8-9). Our works, regardless of how wonderful WE may think they are -- are like filthy rags in the eyes of God (Isaiah 64:6).


You are attempting to make a doctrine out of a couple verses, because there is more. Eph 2:8-9 is only explaining the what, where and Who saves us by His good works. It does not explain the process by which we are saved. There are many more Scriptures that tells us exactly what must be done before we are saved.
Here are few that say we must endure before we are saved.

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Here is a few which say we must believe and be baptized before we are saved.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ****ed.

It is not a literal baptism in water, but a spiritual baptism of the Holy Ghost and with fire.

Mat 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

We also need to be crucified with Him.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Not a literal crucifixion, but a crucifixion of the fleshy, carnal, sinful deeds of the body.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify (kill) the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

We must also overcome persecution and the world and it's sinful nature by doing good to them, just like Jesus did.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

There is a lot more Christ must do in a persons life before they are saved, I only gave a few.

I agree that salvation is a gift, but it is not to be taken for granted. You wouldn't leave a gift unopened would you? A gift must be opened and put to good use.

1Ti 4:12 Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe.
1Ti 4:13 Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.
1Ti 4:14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
1Ti 4:15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
1Ti 4:16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Jas 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow (Mr.Gray?), that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

quote:
Professing Christ is not the ticket; possessing Christ is the winner!


Says you Mr. Gray. Pay close attention Mr. Gray, this is very important, and it will test your belief in the Scriptures.

Isa 45:23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

Php 2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

No one can say Jesus is the Christ except by the Holy Spirit.

1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

So what do you think happens when a person confesses Jesus as Christ?

Mat 10:32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.

Act 2:21 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Confessing Jesus as Lord is no small part of salvation, and it is very important.

quote:
So, VP, I must ask you: Is the Bible lying? Is the Bible just a lot of bologna?


So now the question is directed at you Mr. Gray, does the shoe fit?

Peace

gdriggs
I'm sorry, Mr gdriggs,
Although you quote with eloquence, I don't ...yet...buy your "version" as quickly as some others.
As to baptism..."It is not a literal baptism in water, but a spiritual baptism of the Holy Ghost and with fire"...Your Quote...YET, what are we to deduct from the many examples...in the Bible...from which you quote, of baptism being the total covering with water?
Are there "options" to baptism?
Believe it or not...I was once told that "Born by water" ...by a Christian(?) was when the water breaks in the natural occurance of childbirth!!!???
So...CC'd births are doomed?


ps Legalize Marijuana!!!
quote:
Originally posted by CageTheElephant:
Believe it or not...I was once told that "Born by water" ...by a Christian(?) was when the water breaks in the natural occurrence of childbirth!!!???

Hi Cage,

I have always viewed John 3:5, ". . ."Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" -- as referring to the fact that a person is born again into God's kingdom (1) through the workings of the Holy Spirit, and, (2) through the Word of God, which is often referred to in the Bible as "living water."

This makes more sense to me, because no one can be saved except by the Holy Spirit. We Christian believers can sow seeds of redemption, we can share knowledge of salvation and why it is necessary. In other words, we can sow, we can water -- but, only the Holy Spirit can harvest.

And, what helps the new seeker become ready for the harvest? Knowledge of the Word of God. When I first began to go to church and take it seriously in 1987; I was not a Christian believer. I went to church every Sunday; I went to Bible study every Friday night; I participated in all fellowship functions -- and, through this -- I learned the Word of God. Then, after six months, the Holy Spirit knew I was ready -- and, I was harvested into the family of God.

Do you see how the two working together bring a person to salvation? Born of the Spirit and the water -- born of the Holy Spirit and the "Living Water" of God -- born of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.

That is my take on this Scripture passage.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by CageTheElephant:
I'm sorry, Mr gdriggs,
Although you quote with eloquence, I don't ...yet...buy your "version" as quickly as some others.
As to baptism..."It is not a literal baptism in water, but a spiritual baptism of the Holy Ghost and with fire"...Your Quote...YET, what are we to deduct from the many examples...in the Bible...from which you quote, of baptism being the total covering with water?
Are there "options" to baptism?
Believe it or not...I was once told that "Born by water" ...by a Christian(?) was when the water breaks in the natural occurance of childbirth!!!???
So...CC'd births are doomed?


No need to be sorry CageTheElephant, because I do not expect very many at all to understand and believe what is written, it is expected.

It is true many were baptized in water, including Jesus. As a matter of fact Jesus performed every physical ritual as required by the OT law, and He did it ONCE and for ALL, so we wouldn't have to. In Old Testament times theses physical rituals and sacrifices were required to atone for sin, and they had to do them often, because they sinned often. When Jesus came on the scene He did them all one last time, including the ultimate sacrifice of being killed on the cross, which is shadowed by the sacrificial killing of the perfect and spotless lambs in OT times. Jesus is called "The Lamb of God" in Scriptures. By His ultimate sacrifice on the cross, we now have PERMANENT forgiveness of sins, whereas before we didn't with the sacrificing of animals.

1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

The OT sacrifices and rituals were only a mere shadow of the real sacrifice of Christ, the Lamb of God. Jesus did what the OT rituals and sacrifices could not do, and that is to make us perfect.

Heb 10:1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.
Heb 10:2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year.
Heb 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

We still sin, but because of His sacrifice He has made it possible for us to stop sinning. They could not stop sinning before Jesus was sacrificed, but now we can, which is why Paul wrote....

Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

It is true they continued to get circumcised and be baptized in literal water even after Jesus' death and resurrection, it wasn't until the first council of Nicea that the Apostles and Disciples began to question whether or not they should continue doing the physical rituals, despite the fact the pharisees demanded they continue doing them.

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

They eventually decided that it was no longer required to be circumcised, and to keep the physical law in general, and they rejoiced!

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Act 15:30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
Act 15:31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.

Later on Paul defines what true baptism is.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

It's all about crucifying the carnal, fleshy, sinful deeds of the mind. To be baptized into Christs death is to crucify, to kill the old man of sin within us.

Later on Paul tells the church in Corinth what true baptism is and the importance of Christs crucifixion, because they are quarreling among themselves about who to follow and quarreling about the literal water baptism that Paul performed on some of them in the past. They did not understand the meaning of Jesus dieing on the cross. Paul wanted them to know that following men would not take their sins away.

1Co 1:11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you.
1Co 1:12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ."
1Co 1:13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
1Co 1:15 so that no one would say you were baptized in my name.
1Co 1:16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.
1Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.
1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

The crucifixion of Christ, the killing of His flesh on the cross, symbolizes the killing of our fleshy minds. When this begins to happen, we start to become spiritually alive, just as He Who is alive, Who knew no sin.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

When you wash in literal water it washes away dirt, when you are spiritual baptized in spiritual water it washes away sin. Water symbolizes truth, Jesus IS The Truth which washes away and sets you free from sin. You are then in effect being born as a new creature through water (which is the Truth), no longer living according to the flesh (sin) but living according to the Spirit who does not sin.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
1Pe 3:19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Eventually all must die to the flesh, just as Christ died in the flesh for ALL.

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
2Co 5:15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

You have to be born again through water (Truth) and the Spirit, so as to become a new creature.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things ('things' not in original Greek text) are become new.

Eventually everyone will be made new again, and He will wipe away all tears, there will be no more death or sorrow.

Isa 25:7 And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples, Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death for all time, And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces, And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken.

Rev 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
Rev 21:5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things ('things' not in the Greek) new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."

If anyone wants to have a literal water baptism that is fine, as long as they know what it really means, otherwise they go down dry and come up wet and little else changes in their lives.

I don't know if this is the answer you were looking for, but I hope this helps.

Peace

gdriggs
quote:
Originally posted by CageTheElephant:
Thank You Mr gdriggs for taking the time/effort to respond. Thank You Bill for the same.

Hi Cage,

In the new discussion titled "Beware The New Age And Cult Teaching!" -- I have responded to the post by GDRiggs.

Please do read that dicussion.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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