Take this and drink of it, for it is my blood....

Nagel,

Your title has nothing to do with your subject matter -- and, is insulting to all Christian believers. You are comparing the precious blood of Jesus Christ, blood which was shed for you, me, and all people, that we might gain salvation through His death -- with whiskey.

You have implied that you are a believer. This certainly gives no indication of that -- or, at most, it shows a total immaturity and lack of knowledge of the Bible, Jesus Christ, and His atoning sacrifice that you might have an opportunity to receive salvation.

Not very cool, even for an atheist -- much less so for a person who claims to be a beleiver.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:
Living here in alabama, so many times i have been told that alcohol is a sin.
i find the line in the bible that says cheating on your spouse is a sin. i've seen the part that says it's a sin to eat pork, for some reason.
why i doubt it's source, i admit to haveing read the line that says man+man sex is sinful.
at no place in the bible have i found one line that says alcohol is a sin.
there is a line that says drunkeness is a sin. drunkness isn't the same thing as having a drink form time to time. drunkeness is when you let being drunk take control of your life. alcoholism. Otis, on Andy Griffith?
sinner.
so here is my challenge:
find me one line, or one verse, that shows that alcohol is a sin.
no interpretation, no inference, straight up.
THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTRY.
straight forward, no room for misunderstanding. find me one like that about booze.

ok, your turn :

This might--or might not--satisfy your demand. but you really ought to consider it as you ponder the relationship of alcohol to the remainder of your life.

The Bible does indeed condemn drunkenness. It also condemns the use of "strong drink."

They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.
Isaiah 24:8-10

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
Proverbs 20:1-3

Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them! Isaiah 5:10-12

Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly!
Proverbs 23:30-32

When the Bible is condemning "strong drink," it is referring to the kind of alcoholic beverages that were considered "strong drink" at the time the Bible was being written. Back then, the very strongest drink that could be produced was wine with about a 12 percent alcohol content. They did not use distillation to produce the kind of strong drink we have today, such as bourbon (40 percent and more of alcohol) or even "fortified wine," which is wine to which alcohol is added to increase its alcohol content to about 20 percent--substantially higher than the "strong drink" of Bible times.

So, thenagel, while I can agree with you that the Bible does condemn drunkenness, I must also advise you that the Bible clearly condemns the use of alcoholic beverages that constitute "strong drink," as that term was understood by the inspired Biblical writers. I don't know what kind of alcoholic beverages you prefer, but if you are using the high-proof stuff so readily available today, you might wish to reconsider your drinking habits in light of Biblical teaching concerning "strong drink." That, of course, assumes that you really care about following Biblical teaching, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt on that, notwithstanding the irreverent way you captioned your post.

beter,
You continue to amaze me. Excellent post! As for politics, we'll just have to agree to disagree

quote:

Your title has nothing to do with your subject matter -- and, is insulting to all Christian believers.

There you go again, claiming that you speak for "all Christians." You most certainly do not. You speak for one (fortunately) very tiny segment of irrational, uneducated snake-handling segments of the primitive Baptist church.

The Angel's question was purely academic. He made no personal attacks on you. He simply wanted an opinion on the sinfulness of alcohol. You could have chose to give him a reasoned answer but instead simply chosen to attack the dad gum SUBJECT LINE.

His subject line IS what we do in church. We drink the blood of Christ - often in the form of alcoholic wine - yet some people like you sects believe all alcohol is evil and we should even talk about it.

quote:

notwithstanding the irreverent way you captioned your post.

Man you guys are sensitive!

Wow. Sin to eat pork? I'd think most of the state is gonna burn by that standard then. 4x.

I seem to remember a Jew who kept a kosher kitchen talling me that pigs were considered unclean back then. Funny. They're actually cleaner than many other animals we also eat.

Bill: Wow....Just....wow. There are no words to describe what an ***-hattical statement that was. Who are YOU to judge? Hypocrite.

And beter-for once I hafta say-Good one.

His subject line IS what we do in church. We drink the blood of Christ - often in the form of alcoholic wine - yet some people like you sects believe all alcohol is evil and we should even talk about it.

Oh, my! This is not offensive!! Come on,people!
And as for alcohol being a sin? No way. Drunkeness? sure. But wine? nope... 2 words- Wedding Feast. (cana).
So sick of people saying drinking is a sin

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:
His subject line IS what we do in church. We drink the blood of Christ - often in the form of alcoholic wine - yet some people like you sects believe all alcohol is evil and we should even talk about it.

Oh, my! This is not offensive!! Come on,people!
And as for alcohol being a sin? No way. Drunkeness? sure. But wine? nope... 2 words- Wedding Feast. (cana).
So sick of people saying drinking is a sin

This sorta gets old, but the word used for alcholic wine and grape juice in the Bible is the same. Drink at wedding was prolly grape juice since they knew the difference in good and bad late in the day.

So that doesn't prove anything. You're better going with the drunk argument.

Really? You think so?
I would be disappointed if they served grape juice at a wedding....

"So, how do we know when it refers to grape juice or intoxicating wine?" The context in which the word is found will determine whether it refers to alcoholic or non- alcoholic wine. So, consider the context.

The immediate context of John 2:1-11 is quite clear. The guests at the marriage feast of Cana were able to discern between the quality of the drink that the Lord had made and that which had already been served. If intoxicating wine had been served, and people "well drunk" or "drunk freely" (American Standard Version,1901) of it (verse 10), then they would not have had such keen discernment. Though the amount is not specified as to what they had previously drunk, if they consumed the six waterpots that Jesus had the servants fill with water and which contained "two or three firkins apiece" (verse 6), then they would have consumed somewhere between 106 to 162 gallons of booze! This is far more than enough to make the most casual drinker drunk. Those who twist this account to condone social drinking say the term "well drunk" refers to the idea that the crowd was so drunk that they could not distinguish. However, the point of "the governor of the feast" to the bridegroom is that the guests were able to discern between the "worse" and the "good wine." If it is the case that these wedding guests were so drunk that they could not distinguish, then the Lord made the six pots of alcoholic beverage for those who were already strongly under the influence, and caused them to be even more drunk! Thus, the "good wine" of the wedding feast of Canaan must have been the fresh juice of the grape.

---------------------

That would make sense.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Nagel,

Your title has nothing to do with your subject matter -- and, is insulting to all Christian believers. You are comparing the precious blood of Jesus Christ, blood which was shed for you, me, and all people, that we might gain salvation through His death -- with whiskey.

You have implied that you are a believer. This certainly gives no indication of that -- or, at most, it shows a total immaturity and lack of knowledge of the Bible, Jesus Christ, and His atoning sacrifice that you might have an opportunity to receive salvation.

Not very cool, even for an atheist -- much less so for a person who claims to be a beleiver.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Matthew chapter 26 (NJKV)
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins

Bill, I am sorry that the words of Christ offend you.

I stand firm in that Jesus served and consumed wine, not grape juice.
Perhaps this will help:
Did Jesus Drink?


Jesus apparently drank enough wine that he was accused of drinking to excess. In his own words he proclaimed, "The Son of Man has come eating and drinking; and you say, ‘Behold, a glutton and a drunkard’" (Luke 7:34). So Jesus was accused of being a drunk.

The Greek word translated as "drunkard" in the above passage is oinopotes, which means a winebibber, one who drinks much wine. In fact, the first part of the word comes from the Greek word for wine, oinos, which occurs several times in the New Testament.

Some claim that Jesus drank grape juice or must (unfermented wine). But then why accuse him of being a drunkard? Other scriptural passages where oinos is found clearly indicate that, indeed, fermented wine, not grape juice, is being discussed.

For example, consider "Neither is new wine put into old wineskins; if it is, the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins are destroyed; but new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved" (Matt. 9:17; see also Mark 2:22, Luke 5:37-38). The old skins burst because the wine contains yeast—the catalyst of fermentation—which causes expansion.

Similarly, "no one after drinking old wine desires new; for he says, ‘The old is good’" (Luke 5:39). Even in New Testament times it was known that wine gets better with age; grape juice does not.

Old Testament passages also discuss wine. Unless otherwise noted, these passages translate the word "wine" from the Hebrew word yayin, meaning fermented wine. The following passages show that, indeed, fermented wine is what is intended to be understood by this word:
Behold, my heart is like wine that has no vent; like new wineskins, it is ready to burst (Job 32:19).
Wine and new wine take away the understanding (Hos. 4:11). Could grape juice do such a thing? Note that "new wine" is translated from the Hebrew word tiyrowsh which can also refer to unfermented wine (e.g., Num. 18:12; Deut. 14:23), but clearly it is not intended to be understood that way here.
Awake, you drunkards, and weep; and wail, all you drinkers of wine, because of the sweet wine, for it is cut off from your mouth (Joel 1:5). Would drunkards care if grape juice was cut off from their mouths? "Sweet wine" is translated from the Hebrew word aciyc which can also refer to unfermented wine, but that is not intended here either.
Is Drinking a Sin?


Drinking wine—or other alcoholic beverages for that matter—is not, in itself, sinful. Let’s look at a few scripture passages that support this claim. First, consider what happened at the wedding at Cana when the wine ran out:
Jesus said to [the servants], "Fill the jars with water." And they filled them up to the brim. He said to them, "Now draw some out, and take it to the steward of the feast." So they took it. When the steward of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the steward of the feast called the bridegroom and said to him, "Every man serves the good wine first; and when men have drunk freely, then the poor wine; but you have kept the good wine until now." (John 2:7-10)
Apparently Jesus was a pretty good vintner! The wine steward’s comments seem to indicate that it was the usual practice to serve good wine until the guests drank enough that they either weren’t picky about the quality of the wine they were drinking, or they simply could no longer tell the difference between good wine and not-so-good wine. Whichever the case, this story clearly indicates that Jesus approved of drinking wine.

So did Paul. We know this from his instructions to Timothy: "No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments" (1 Tim. 5:23). Interestingly, present-day research indicates that drinking wine has health benefits.

But the approval of drinking wine goes back further than New Testament times. Several passages from the Old Testament indicate that drinking has been acceptable for a long time:
Give strong drink to him who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress; let them drink and forget their poverty, and remember their misery no more (Prov. 31:6-7).
Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was priest of God Most High (Gen. 14:18).
[Jacob] brought [Isaac] wine, and he drank (Gen. 27:25).
[S]pend the money for whatever you desire, oxen, or sheep, or wine or strong drink . . . (Deut. 14:26).
Thou dost cause the grass to grow for the cattle, and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth, and wine to gladden the heart of man . . . (Ps. 104:14-15).
Go, eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God has already approved what you do (Eccles. 9:7).1
On this mountain the Lord of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of fat things, a feast of wine on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wine on the lees well refined (Is. 25:6). Note that the Hebrew word translated as "wine on the lees" here is shemer, indicating fermentation.

quote:

Originally posted by Sofa King:

quote:

Your title has nothing to do with your subject matter -- and, is insulting to all Christian believers.

There you go again, claiming that you speak for "all Christians." You most certainly do not. You speak for one (fortunately) very tiny segment of irrational, uneducated snake-handling segments of the primitive Baptist church.

The Angel's question was purely academic. He made no personal attacks on you. He simply wanted an opinion on the sinfulness of alcohol. You could have chose to give him a reasoned answer but instead simply chosen to attack the dad gum SUBJECT LINE.

His subject line IS what we do in church. We drink the blood of Christ - often in the form of alcoholic wine - yet some people like you sects believe all alcohol is evil and we should even talk about it.

thank you , sir. exactly correct. i'm not saying it's right or wrong, as each of us has our own view of this issue and there isn't a lot of chance for anyones opinion to be swayed by yet another discussion on it, i was just curious about some of the reasonings behind the idea. i've heard and read many lines in the bible that say it's a bad idea, and things that imply one shouldn't make important decision while drinking, (which is just common sense) but the only thing i've seen acctually called a Sin is 'drunkeness" (alcoholism)
i've had this discussion many times, i was just wondering if anyone could being something new to it

and, as for the topic title, you and VP got that one as well. they were drinking wine at the last supper, and Christ grabbed the glass and said ' this is my blood '. i thought the title was appropriate since we'd be talking about booze and whether it was a sin, period, or only when abused.
Irreverant, sure, but also apt.

quote:

Originally posted by beternU:

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:
Living here in alabama, so many times i have been told that alcohol is a sin.
i find the line in the bible that says cheating on your spouse is a sin. i've seen the part that says it's a sin to eat pork, for some reason.
why i doubt it's source, i admit to haveing read the line that says man+man sex is sinful.
at no place in the bible have i found one line that says alcohol is a sin.
there is a line that says drunkeness is a sin. drunkness isn't the same thing as having a drink form time to time. drunkeness is when you let being drunk take control of your life. alcoholism. Otis, on Andy Griffith?
sinner.
so here is my challenge:
find me one line, or one verse, that shows that alcohol is a sin.
no interpretation, no inference, straight up.
THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTRY.
straight forward, no room for misunderstanding. find me one like that about booze.

ok, your turn :

This might--or might not--satisfy your demand. but you really ought to consider it as you ponder the relationship of alcohol to the remainder of your life.

The Bible does indeed condemn drunkenness. It also condemns the use of "strong drink."

They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.
Isaiah 24:8-10

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
Proverbs 20:1-3

Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them! Isaiah 5:10-12

Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly!
Proverbs 23:30-32

When the Bible is condemning "strong drink," it is referring to the kind of alcoholic beverages that were considered "strong drink" at the time the Bible was being written. Back then, the very strongest drink that could be produced was wine with about a 12 percent alcohol content. They did not use distillation to produce the kind of strong drink we have today, such as bourbon (40 percent and more of alcohol) or even "fortified wine," which is wine to which alcohol is added to increase its alcohol content to about 20 percent--substantially higher than the "strong drink" of Bible times.

So, thenagel, while I can agree with you that the Bible does condemn drunkenness, I must also advise you that the Bible clearly condemns the use of alcoholic beverages that constitute "strong drink," as that term was understood by the inspired Biblical writers. I don't know what kind of alcoholic beverages you prefer, but if you are using the high-proof stuff so readily available today, you might wish to reconsider your drinking habits in light of Biblical teaching concerning "strong drink." That, of course, assumes that you really care about following Biblical teaching, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt on that, notwithstanding the irreverent way you captioned your post.

it was irreverent , yes, but appropriate as well.
thank you for the post. i don't know that i DO care about following biblical teachings, because i believe a lot of it is just Hooey made by people to help them control others, but that doesn't mean i don't want to learn as much as i can. a person can't really decide what's wrong or right unless they educate themselves on the subject at hand, yes?

and with all due respect for an excellent reply, i'm afraid i have to disagree with it.
the quotes you used do clearly state that one is foolish if they allow strong drink to rule their lives, reinforcing the 'drunkeness' being sinful, but they do not say that to consume alcohol even in small quantities or infrequintly is sinful.
infact, one line says to me, "drink to much, and you're gonna suffer in the morning." which isn't an condemnation of alcohol, but a warning to be cautious when drinking. (Isaiah 5:10-12) also, it's good advise.

my one main argument with the whole thing, that you did not bring up at all, is thay many people claim that all of the mention of wine in the bible was really just their word for grape juice. these are also, generally, the people that say the bible should be taken as the literaly exact word of god. so why would god say wine when he meant grape juice?
i love the circular logic they use when arguing the grape juice theory. "Christ turned the water to wine. but alcohol is a sin, so the wine was really grape juice, because christ would never lead people into sin, because alcohol is a sin, so the wine was really grape juice." the idea that chirst wouldn't lead us into sin, so that means that drinking wine isn't sinful doesn't even occur to them.

anyway, thank you for the reply
i apologize if you found the heading offensive, but under the circumstances i thought it was very appopriate.

quote:

his sorta gets old, but the word used for alcholic wine and grape juice in the Bible is the same. Drink at wedding was prolly grape juice since they knew the difference in good and bad late in the day.

I can't imagine there was too much grape juice back then. It wasn't like they could store the grapes in the 'fridge to keep them fresh and fermentation-free.

The fact is that wine and beer was much safer to drink than water at the time because the alcohol content made it impossible for harmful microbes to grow. It was not uncommon to mix it with water to lessen the effects if necessary.

I imagine almost everyone drank wine quite often.

Personally, I don't give a hoot what the bible might say about it. I enjoy the stuff and drink it in moderation and the medical benefits are quite well documented.

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:
I stand firm in that Jesus served and consumed wine, not grape juice.
Perhaps this will help:
Did Jesus Drink?

<snipped for brevity>

just.... Wow.

/bows to VPLee

thank you

Isaiah 5:10-12 has nothing to do with hangovers. You're off the mark there. You're right about some people who believe Biblical wine is nothing more than grape juice. They're dead wrong there. I've consumed large amounts of grape juice at a time and never got drunk off it. I doubt Noah would have gotten drunk from JUST grape juice. Consuming alcohol is sinful when done to excess. It's also frowned upon if you do it in the presence of someone who believes alcohol should not be consumed by Christians (stumbling block). The negatives associated with alcohol consumption far outweigh the positives. I could go on, but I won't for now.

quote:

Irreverant, sure, but also apt.

Not even irreverent, sir

as one of the few who DOES take the "this is my blood" literally,
I wasn't offended either.....

quote:

Originally posted by Tomme73:
Isaiah 5:10-12 has nothing to do with hangovers. You're off the mark there. You're right about some people who believe Biblical wine is nothing more than grape juice. They're dead wrong there. I've consumed large amounts of grape juice at a time and never got drunk off it. I doubt Noah would have gotten drunk from JUST grape juice. Consuming alcohol is sinful when done to excess. It's also frowned upon if you do it in the presence of someone who believes alcohol should not be consumed by Christians (stumbling block). The negatives associated with alcohol consumption far outweigh the positives. I could go on, but I won't for now.

Oh i have no problem with that.
i know a guy, a heavily educate preacher, Doctorate, all that, who says, basically, " no, the bible does not say that the consumption of alcohol, period, is sinful, but it does say that strong drink is a mocker, and hints that consuming alcohol is an unwise thing to do, and so i don't consume alcohol.

i respect that greatly. he does what the bibles tells him to do, but since the language isn't clear and concise, he doesn't even pretend to tell other people that they are biblically required to follow his example. he'll tell you 'it's probably a good idea' to avoid booze, and even that i can't argue with. and he'd be one of the first to tell you if/when the bible does explicitly say that something is sinful, and that to ignore it would be risking your soul, but when it isn't clear he doesn't pretend that it is, and doesn't try to intimidate you to doing what he says about it.

but, for clarification -
Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them! Isaiah 5:10-12

after re-reading it, i conceed the point. it connected the wrong way round in my head when i read it the first time. it means ' sorrow will find the man that gets up in the morning and spends the entire day and night drinking, because he's going get totally hammered and do something stupid.

i saw it as saying ' if you stay up all night drinking, it's gonna suck when you wake up in the morning." sorry.. i was reading quickly and missed it.
thanks for calling me on it.

quote:

Originally posted by Sofa King:

quote:

his sorta gets old, but the word used for alcholic wine and grape juice in the Bible is the same. Drink at wedding was prolly grape juice since they knew the difference in good and bad late in the day.

I can't imagine there was too much grape juice back then. It wasn't like they could store the grapes in the 'fridge to keep them fresh and fermentation-free.

The fact is that wine and beer was much safer to drink than water at the time because the alcohol content made it impossible for harmful microbes to grow. It was not uncommon to mix it with water to lessen the effects if necessary.

I imagine almost everyone drank wine quite often.

Personally, I don't give a hoot what the bible might say about it. I enjoy the stuff and drink it in moderation and the medical benefits are quite well documented.

The Myth of Natural Fermentation

Nature NEVER forms spiritous liquors. The fruit (grape) may rot and turn sour but it takes ART to convert juice to alcohol. The indispensable conditions for vinous fermentation are exact proportions of sugar, yeast or gluten and water with air temperature between 50 and 75 degrees. Chemical science forbids vinous fermentation when heat exceeds 75 degrees and assures the acetous (vinegar). Since the Middle East is well above that even at night most of the year, something had to be done to preserve the juice (wine) for the year, or else it would all turn to vinegar! To assume it was all turned to alcoholic wine is a ridiculous assertion and flies in the face of historical fact. Josephus, famous Jewish historian declares that he has seen provisions at the Jewish fortress Massada including grapes and fruits, kept fresh to last for 100 years!!!! Pliny the Roman historian confirms this. Don't let anyone tell you that grapes have to be kept by making alcoholic wine so they can last the year!!

So we see that the portrayal that grape juice was only preserved by fermentation is utterly false. Unfermented wine was the most common wine in biblical times. It was not what we know as wine today which is always alcoholic. You cannot defend wine drinking today on the basis of biblical times because the two are totally different.

________________

That's why the Bible mentions you can't put new wine in old skins, it was dangerous.

quote:

liny the Roman historian confirms this. Don't let anyone tell you that grapes have to be kept by making alcoholic wine so they can last the year!!

Hmm. Interesting. I learn-ded something today. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Trutooit-II:

The Myth of Natural Fermentation

Nature NEVER forms spiritous liquors. The fruit (grape) may rot and turn sour but it takes ART to convert juice to alcohol. The indispensable conditions for vinous fermentation are exact proportions of sugar, yeast or gluten and water with air temperature between 50 and 75 degrees. Chemical science forbids vinous fermentation when heat exceeds 75 degrees and assures the acetous (vinegar).

sorry, this is incorrect.

hit google, do a search for “drunken monkey hypothesis"

fruit, in hot climates, naturally ferments on the vine/tree, and animals, mostly primates, will fight each other to get to the now alcohol rich fruit.

i homebrew. which means, i make beer. which means i know a little more than your average person about the properties and habits of yeast. there are dozens, if not hundereds of varieties of yeast. some ferment form the bottom up. some from the top down. some from the center out. some yeasts prefer cooler temps (50-60) some prefer warmer temps (80-90)
your average beer yeast, i'll use a lager for an example. Saflager S-23 Dry Lager Yeast is a low temp, top fermenting yeast. this means it wants temperatures between 50-60 degrees, it floats on top of the wort and as it finishes it's job, it sinks to the bottom.
red star's Premier Cuvée Dry Wine Yeast works in temps from 45-95 degrees. i don't know if it's a top fementing yeast or not, because i've never tried to make wine.

so, sir, whoever told you that fermentation never happens without human intervention, and cannot happen over 75 degrees was either badly misinformed or was blatently lying to you.

75 is a ludicrous number for anyone who has ever brewed, baked bread from scratch or done a nickel's worth of research into yeast and fermentation. 75 is actually an optimal temperature for wine making. Most yeast do not die until about 120 or so. One uses Fleischmann's to raise bread at about 90-110.

Harvest time in Israel was in July or August, the month of Av, when the average temperature is guess what, slightly over 20C. That is optimal fermentation time. Wine, beer and spirits initial phase were all fermented by natural "wild yeasts" until Pasteur's time.

Who in the world, that is polite French for "which idiot," equated wine to "spirits?" Do they not know what a still is for? You see, Virginia, they take a fermented beverage, which cannot be naturally more than about 17% when fermentation stops, and then boil it in a container that is sealed save for a "coil" or "spout" from which issues steam. Since alcohol boils much lower in temperature than water, what comes off is mostly a vapor of alcohol enriched steam. This is contained in a sealed condenser which makes it liquid. One continues the process from the condensate as many times as it takes to make the alcohol more and more alcohol and less and less water. This done to wine is called "brandy." Cider makes "Calvodos" or "apple brandy." A crude "beer" made of anything from potatoes to corn to rice then becomes either whiskey, vodka, or sake. Plum wine yields "slivovitz."

Here are some nice fancy book learnin' links to the process of natural fermentation, average temps in Jerusalem, and the Hebrew Calendar and various harvest times. Lest a snake handler get aholt of you and lead you into stupidity.

http://www.climatetemp.info/israel/

http://www.texloc.com/closet/cl_cel_fah_chart.html

http://www.practicalwinery.com/janfeb01p21.htm

http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/s...calbook/part2-4.html

Aude, will you like to experiment? Let's make some good ole moonshine!

A couple of questions:

Nagle, do you ADD yeast when you make beer?

Aude, you talk about yeast. The article (and I'll do some research myself on that later) says a combo of yeast, gluten and sugar. Note that's three things that have to naturally occur.

I have no real idea about natural fermentation. It will be an interesting study. I do know the word used in Matthew for wine could have been alcoholic or non-alcoholic. Obviously, the way it was used implied non-alcoholic. So if you drink, do it moderately, but don't claim that Jesus made alcoholic wine. He didn't.

quote:

don't claim that Jesus made alcoholic wine. He didn't.

Please see my post above, and you will see the many instances/references to the fruit of the vine. Jesus indeed turned water into wine, and drank wine on many, many occasions.

sugar, yeast, gluten, water equals fermentation if at the right temp and combo this happens to be what crushed grapes are made of. It is natural. One can smell the Muscadines fermenting on their vines in the country. Wild hogs and dogs and other mammals flock to this smell.

You do have to throw yeast to get the "right" yeasts these days. Too many wild strains in the air to make it uneconomical. You do not need to throw to make either beer, mash, or wine or cider, but you probably will not like the taste of what comes out.

Lambic ales are not thrown. But they have a nice strain of wild yeast in the Lambic Valley in the Lowlands. If it comes out Ok, it is bottled and called "Geuze." If it is "off," it is blended with other low quality Lambic and then crushed fruit is added with yeast and refermented as a fruit wine with a beer base. the cherry is especially tasty, I think and the peach a bit too sweet.

If one is going to brew, for heaven's sake do not use either cane sugar or baker's yeast. One uses either brewer's yeast or champagne yeast and corn sugar.

Our Lord did most certainly drink real live wine, no matter how one tries to parse it. I defy anyone to find grape juice that was not either mildewed mush or vinegar or alcoholic wine like the Jews have drank for about 3500 years of religious rites in the First Century or any following pasteurization, hermetic sealing or refrigeration.

Passover and the Last Supper were in March or April in Nisan. The grapes were picked in Israel in Av, in midsummer. Q: How did they keep it "alcohol free?" A: They did not since they could not.

Claiming something and redefining it does not make it fact.

Taking only one point, the word oinois, according to Hebrew dictionaries, meant either alcoholic or not. Why have a word for grape juice if it didn't exist?

Actually, I will ask a second question. You say that wine not made from brewer's yeast would not taste good. Since Hebrews were forbidden to have ANY kind of yeast in their homes at Passover and for other religious ceremonies, just how did they make wine for everyday consumption. Did they stock up?

quote:

Originally posted by Infomercial:
A couple of questions:

Nagle, do you ADD yeast when you make beer?

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well sure - the type of yeast used can radically affect the flavor.

it's called 'Pitching'. i'm not sure why, because it's far closer to sprinkle and stir. i suppose in larger batching one could 'pitch' the yeast. maybe they just use it because 'pitching the yeast' sounds better than 'sprinkle and stir' /shrug

but :
quote
I do know the word used in Matthew for wine could have been alcoholic or non-alcoholic. Obviously, the way it was used implied non-alcoholic. So if you drink, do it moderately, but don't claim that Jesus made alcoholic wine. He didn't.
/quote

now we are just down to opinion. some people say "it can mean either, but clearly it means this" while others say the exact opposite.

i've read that section, often. i can't read hebrew or greek, so i dunno what the original text says, or how it's translated.
i do know booze tho.
i know that the guy was commended for saving the good wine till the end, because most people would serve the good stuff at first, and when people were beoynd careing, they'd break out the cheap crap. some one said that that alone proved it wasn't alcoholic wine, because a drunk wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
this is astoundingly incorrect. one can easily tell the difference between, say, MD 20/20 and a kendall jackson chardonnay, no matter how much of the mad dog they'd had.

granted, they may not CARE, but it's isn't hard to tell the difference.

so what the wedding feast said to me was that clearly the wine christ created did indeed contain alcohol. however, i also cannot see that he drank any of it. i don't claim he drank the wine, but i do claim that the wine he made was wine, not grape juice that they called wine.

think about it - the guy was complimented on the strength and quality of the second round of wine. why would that even be in there if it was just juice?

i hit a website called biblegateway.com. i searched for that verse. i found it, and hopped through maybe a dozen different translations.
in all ofthem the text was pretty much the same. some more complicated and twisty, but it all said

"Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."

the stuff at the wedding was wine, not grape juice. but it never says that jesus drank it.

Why would a Hebrew dictionary have a Greek word, like oinos in it? Look, it is even cognate with the Latin and the English. That ain't Hebrew anymore than uno, dos, tres, cuatro are.


They could not have leavening. Leavening is not limited to yeast. In fact, until very recently all bread was risen by an older piece of dough. They threw out their leavening, not their wine.

The point of it was that they were too busy to wait for the bread to rise when they left Egypt, so they made matzo. Today, under rabbinical Judaism, all yeast is thrown out and to be safe anything not "Kosher for Passover." That does not include wine. There are specific Kosher and Kosher for Passover wines made.

I do not believe Greek to be so defective a language as to lack a phrase or word for "grape juice not fermented." I t would be quite simple, take the word for juice and then add genitive/possessive for "grape."

Do you even know the rules for Passover? Do you know Greek that well? Can you preserve grape juice squeezed in the summer or early autumn and keep it fresh until the springtime? I doubt you have been so much as inside a Jewish home when Passover is about to begin! I have. They hide a piece of dough and the kids try to find it. The kitchen is spotlessly cleaned from top to bottom and some even use special Passover plates and glasses.

Take that, you can't Bill Gray your way out of this one by redefining words. The first Passover and the ritual that has evolved are two different things. Heck, they did not even know what yeast was back then, only bread would rise when an old piece was sweetened and added to the dough and that grape juice would ferment.

The discovery of yeast in Modern Times has led to the "Kosher for Passover" rules, they are not Medieval or Ancient, as they had no knowledge of yeast, only of bread taking time to rise and time led to that and fermentation with a little help with the leftover bread dough and optimal temperature conditions for the wine.

In biblical times, all fruit of the vine was called "wine," even if unfermented. Thirteen different words in Hebrew and Chaldee, and four in Greek were all used for wine. The common word in Greek was "oinois," in Hebrew, "yayin" or "yain," in Latin, "vinum," and in English, "wine." According to Professor Samuel Lee of Cambridge University, the Hebrew word "yain" does not refer to liquor, but to a thick, grape syrup which was boiled in order to be preserved. It was referred to as "new wine," even though it was merely grape juice.

________________

I would never pretend to speak Greek, but a prof of Greek once told me that the Greeks were "economical" and borrowed words from other languages, so maybe that's why they had some crossovers. "oinois" sounds Greek to me, no joke intended, but I can understand how it would be in a Hebrew dictionary.

Now, since fermentation takes time, if oinois didn't refer to both, just what did the Greeks call unfermented grape juice? They had to have some name for it. And if they didn't called grape juice oinois, what did they call it?

There were 2 words used for wine in Greek: oinos and methy+ and they had another for the syrup to which you refer gleuk+. Methy+ is cognate with mead, fermented honey drink, and comes from an Indo-European root for honey. Gleuk+ is based on the word for sweet, as in glucose.

Now this syrup could be boiled down and made into wine later on or drank with just water. New wine is exactly that: in Beaujolais, it is released on November 15th every year, having been pressed in the summer and fermented then and bottled.

There is no reason for a Hebrew dictionary having a Greek word in it unless it was a religious term such as Pentateuch, which is just another name for Torah. Pent+ being Greek for five, which is actually congnate with the English word for five following various language laws such as substitute p for an f or v in Germanic, the ive was morphed from the modern Funf. It sounds weird, but it follows standard morphs of older more basic I-E terms into modern ones.

Are you sure it was a Hebrew dictionary? It just seems odd that such a foreign word would be in there, unless it was some sort of "Biblical Hebrew and Greek" dictionary. It would be odd to the Hebrew ear, since Semitic words are based on three letter combos and the positioning and inter-positioning of the vowels added to the root make the word declined/parsed.

Believe whatever you will, but wine is wine is wine and always will be, and is an integral part of the Passover service.

So basically you're saying that oinois could never be meant to be grape juice, unfermented?

No. I am saying that I have researched this thoroughly, and it seems that 2 men vied for a teetotaler prize of 100 guineas in London in the first half of the 19th century. They wrote "learned essays" which were later, actually during the same year,, met with a reply to show they were selectively quoting portions of Roman authors, and that the concentrated must was used to make the wine when fermented later much sweeter. They do the same thing with Port wine today. The grapes are pressed, the troughs stand open for only a few days and no yeast thrown. Then they stop fermentation with pure spirits, brandy from the last vintage passed through the still. The same thing is done with sherry.

The only way to stop fermentation is by killing the yeast. This can be done by heating it, chilling it, or killing it with alcohol above a certain percentage, or starving it from food (sugar). No grape wine can as presently known naturally fermented reach over 20& due to the sugars having been exhausted.

The fetish about "new wine" and "triple meanings for oinos" are but a feeble attempt in my eyes to avoid the inevitable: Our Lord drank alcoholic wine, as did everyone just about around him.

Why do they make Kosher and Kosher for Passover wine? Why is a glass of wine being blessed part of every seder and Sabbath evening meal in a Jewish home?

I tire of this. Go out in peace to love and serve the Lord.

quote:

think about it - the guy was complimented on the strength and quality of the second round of wine. why would that even be in there if it was just juice?

I assume no one has changed anyone's mind here, but I will say that it's easy to disprove this one non-point. Go to Foodland and buy some Welch's Grape Juice, then walk down to Big Lots and buy some of their off brand from overstocked whatever. If you can't tell the difference, then you don't have taste buds.

quote:

Originally posted by Infomercial:

quote:

think about it - the guy was complimented on the strength and quality of the second round of wine. why would that even be in there if it was just juice?

I assume no one has changed anyone's mind here, but I will say that it's easy to disprove this one non-point. Go to Foodland and buy some Welch's Grape Juice, then walk down to Big Lots and buy some of their off brand from overstocked whatever. If you can't tell the difference, then you don't have taste buds.

i said grape juice, not 'artifically sweetened grape flavored drink (contains artifical grape flavoring) (from concentrate)

but i understand your point.

Oh, I hope there is no "evidence" that Jesus' wine was really grape juice. If so, please keep it secret- I **NEED** my glass of Malbec at the end of the day. Don't mess with it.

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:
Oh, I hope there is no "evidence" that Jesus' wine was really grape juice. If so, please keep it secret- I **NEED** my glass of Malbec at the end of the day. Don't mess with it.

i prefer a kendall jackson vitner's reserve chardonnay. but i prefer a sweet wine to something that makes me feel like all the moisture has been sucked out of my mouth