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I am curious to know if all or some of us have similar "growing pains" in our faith.
As we all know, it's easy to be faithful when life is going smoothly.
The one thing that "rocks my boat" is when things that COULD be prevented are not prevented. Lots of people say stuff like, "Well it was God's will, etc".
I struggle with that. How can a loving God allow childhood cancer? Natural disasters?
Immense human suffering is when I have the most profound troubles with faith- my mind just can't get around it.
Any thoughts??
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I think it goes to God created us and the world and we all play our parts. Could He stop all suffering? Of course. When something happens that throws me, I try to sit down, think and pray. I may not know the reason now, but I know I will be shown it later.

As bad as some things are, each event changes who I am. I think I grow and mature more. Everything being easy doesn't prepare us for the big problems.

I have a friend who freaked one day because her washer threw up. She was completely unhinged. I could not help but think how she would handle a family member being in an accident.

Why do children die? I don't know. I know that they will be loved and cherished until their parents are reunited with them.

Why do we have evil? Satan is still trying for that top spot.

If you lose faith because things go wrong, I don't think you had it to begin with.
quote:
But that is not the way of the world.


Exactly!
And that is precisely why I get so distraught when terrible things happen.
What is the point of all the suffering? To strengthen us? To prepare us? If so, for what?
Or is it just that God doesn't micro-manage His creation, and it is just "the way it is".
Its tough to grasp.
World without God? Can't imagine that...as God is Creation (the World). "I am who am".
But these things do try our faith. Just wondering how others overcome/justify....
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
But that is not the way of the world.


Exactly!
And that is precisely why I get so distraught when terrible things happen.
What is the point of all the suffering? To strengthen us? To prepare us? If so, for what?
Or is it just that God doesn't micro-manage His creation, and it is just "the way it is".
Its tough to grasp.
World without God? Can't imagine that...as God is Creation (the World). "I am who am".
But these things do try our faith. Just wondering how others overcome/justify....


vp,

If God set things in motion, then let them roll along of their own causality, that is Deism. Respectable enough, but in no way does Deism include a personal god who tells us that abortion is bad, sacrament is good, and capitalism is beside the religious point.

Are you a Deist?

NSNS
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Lots of people say stuff like, "Well it was God's will, etc".
I struggle with that. How can a loving God allow childhood cancer? Natural disasters?
Immense human suffering


How many times have we all seen people praying for someone, then when that person dies, they say..."well, it was God's will".

Bull Crap!!

VP, I struggle with that too, have for years but as you know, now I struggle with trying to figure out if He even exist.

How can this God/Jesus that is supposed to love us so much, allow the things to happen that do? I wish I knew.
quote:
If you lose faith because things go wrong, I don't think you had it to begin with.


I don't mean a complete loss of faith, but just a "rocky spot". Those are normal enough, right?
Or maybe they're not- but I do believe that even the most faithful may have 'dry spells'. I have those when I ponder very very bad things. I get angry with God, and wonder what the heck purpose it serves.
You may be on to something with the maturing and growing thing....
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
If you lose faith because things go wrong, I don't think you had it to begin with.


I don't mean a complete loss of faith, but just a "rocky spot". Those are normal enough, right?
Or maybe they're not- but I do believe that even the most faithful may have 'dry spells'. I have those when I ponder very very bad things. I get angry with God, and wonder what the heck purpose it serves.
You may be on to something with the maturing and growing thing....


Oh dear, I was not referring to you directly. I was talking about people who expect everything to be great, then when its not, they blame God. THOSE people never had faith, they only want an easy life.

Yes, I have had times when I have gotten very angry. I may have used a few ummmmm adjectives that were not very nice!
Now this took lots of faith:

8At this time some astrologers came forward and denounced the Jews. 9They said to King Nebuchadnezzar, “O king, live forever! 10You have issued a decree, O king, that everyone who hears the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipes and all kinds of music must fall down and worship the image of gold, 11and that whoever does not fall down and worship will be thrown into a blazing furnace. 12But there are some Jews whom you have set over the affairs of the province of Babylon—Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego—who pay no attention to you, O king. They neither serve your gods nor worship the image of gold you have set up.”

13Furious with rage, Nebuchadnezzar summoned Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. So these men were brought before the king, 14and Nebuchadnezzar said to them, “Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the image of gold I have set up? 15Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipes and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?”

16Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king. 18But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.”
Hi VP,

God created Adam and Eve and placed them in the Garden of Eden -- a perfect paradise. They had everything they could ever want; including personal communion with God Himself, walking daily with God in the Garden.

They were told they could enjoy all of this paradise, eat of any tree or fruit -- but, there was one tree which they must never touch -- the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Now, the atheists and other non-believers will say that God was setting a trap for Adam and Eve. Not true. God created them to be in perfect harmony with Himself; yet, He wanted them to choose to love Him. So, He gave them the gift of "free will" -- the freedom to choose to love and follow Him -- or to deny Him. Eating of the fruit He told them not to eat -- meant that they rejected Him by disobeying Him.

Why did He do this? To purposely tempt them; to trap them? No!

Because if they obeyed Him -- it was because the loved Him and wanted to follow Him. If they had not been given two choices to decide between -- what good is "free will"?

Imagine this -- you tell your child that if he/she loves you and honors you -- he/she will eat only the chocolate candy. But, you only put chocolate candy in the bowl; there is no other kind. So, what will the child do? It will eat the chocolate candy. Does this prove that the child loves you -- or that he/she had no other choice because the only candy you made available was chocolate.

But, if you put chocolate candy and peppermint candy in bowls side by side; what will that child do, which candy will he/she eat? If he/she truly loves you, your wishes will be obeyed -- that child will eat only chocolate candy. However, if that child is a bit rebellious, or if another person (a sneaky old snake or an atheist) enters the picture and tells your child, "Surely, your parent is only trying to fool you, to tempt you by setting a trap for you. Eating the peppermint candy will not be bad, not really."

And, because this child, Eve, believed the evil old serpent (or atheist) and ate the peppermint candy -- the world was turned sour.

That, my Friend, is exactly what happened in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve listened to the evil serpent (or cunning atheist) and disobeyed God. Because of this disobedience sin and death enter the creation for the first time. Yes, death -- spiritual death and physical death.

Adam and Eve and all their children, all mankind, died spiritually that day. And, the deterioration which leads to physical death began that day. The whole creation was corrupted because man now had a sin nature -- and that sin nature of man has led to all of the sicknesses, illnesses, wars, and famines down through the millenniums.

So, no, we cannot lay the evils which happen to men, women, and children upon the shoulders of God. Yet, if we will believe in Him and follow Him -- He will make our burdens much more bearable -- and will lead us through the valleys and bring us out victorious on the other side.

Meditate on this Scripture passage in Jeremiah 29:11-13, "For I know the plans that I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart."

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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I think that sometimes, what happens here on Earth will have an effect on something in Heaven. We may not be able to see it, but there is a reason. I don't believe God CAUSES the suffering, but sometimes He lets it happen when we know he COULD stop it, for reasons that will become clear when we get to Heaven.

Do any of you remember that Star Trek about time travel. Kirk fell in love (AGAIN!!), and the woman was run down in the street. If she HADN'T been killed, her mission work would have had political affects that would have changed the world.

Everything is so interconnected, there is no way we can figure out the effect on the tapestry of pulling just one thread.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
I think that sometimes, what happens here on Earth will have an effect on something in Heaven. We may not be able to see it, but there is a reason. I don't believe God CAUSES the suffering, but sometimes He lets it happen when we know he COULD stop it, for reasons that will become clear when we get to Heaven.

Do any of you remember that Star Trek about time travel. Kirk fell in love (AGAIN!!), and the woman was run down in the street. If she HADN'T been killed, her mission work would have had political affects that would have changed the world.

Everything is so interconnected, there is no way we can figure out the effect on the tapestry of pulling just one thread.


Talking to a Trekie here, "The City on the Edge of Forever" starring Joan Collins. I think that is a great way to look at it. Sometimes bad things HAVE to happen. It doesn't make sense now, but will later.
Hi O No,

You share with us, "I think that sometimes, what happens here on Earth will have an effect on something in Heaven. We may not be able to see it, but there is a reason. I don't believe God CAUSES the suffering, but sometimes He lets it happen when we know he COULD stop it, for reasons that will become clear when we get to Heaven.

Do any of you remember that Star Trek about time travel. Kirk fell in love (AGAIN!!) -- and the woman was run down in the street. If she HADN'T been killed, her mission work would have had political affects that would have changed the world. Everything is so interconnected, there is no way we can figure out the effect on the tapestry of pulling just one thread."


Actually, I do recall that episode of Star Trek very well. I was sad for Captain James Kirk; but could see the logic in what the writers were telling us -- that one small change in the course of history, ours or the world's, could have tremendous effects.

How often have we heard that a one degree error in the compass of a ship or an airplane traveling from the mainland to Hawaii -- could cause that pilot to miss Hawaii by hundreds of miles. The same kind of effect could occur if we changed one event in history.

When my wife was young, she had an accomplished singing voice. When she came to America, the conductor of a Philharmonic Orchestra wanted to sponsor her for further studies -- but, her first husband was too jealous and did not like her performing on stage. So, she put aside her own personal desires and did not take advantage of the opportunity.

I have often wondered what could have happened if she had told her first husband to stuff it and had accepted the opportunity. I am sure she would have done well. But, then I realize that if she had gone on to have a musical career -- most likely I would never have met her and she would not be my wife. So, while it is selfish of me to feel this way -- I am grateful that we will be celebrating our 33rd Wedding Anniversary this coming week.

And, timing is so important. My wife and I are a good example of this. In the early 1960s, I lived in the Alexandria, Virginia/Washington DC area for several years. At that same time, Dory and her first husband were stationed at the Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland -- a short drive away.

In 1970, Dory worked at Hoag Hospital in Newport Beach, California -- and I worked for a computer company only two blocks from Hoag Hospital. Fast forward a few years and Dory worked at Western Medical Center in Santa Ana, California -- and I lived only three blocks away. Yet, with us so often being in such close proximity; we never met.

In 1977, I was hanging with a group of my party-hardy friends at the night club in the Saddleback Hotel in Santa Ana. Red Carpet Real Estate held their company meetings in the same hotel. One fateful Wednesday evening, I was standing near the bar of the night club, when one of my friends, Lupe, looked toward the door and told me, "Bill, there is Rita." Rita was a Filipina I had been dating.

I looked and told Lupe, "That is not Rita -- but, I am going to go meet that lovely lady." Dory had just come out of the Real Estate meeting and she and her girl friend, Phil, were standing by the door of the night club inside the hotel. I went over, introduced myself, and talked with them. A week later, we had our first date -- and I was hooked for life -- never dated, or even wanted to date, another woman after our first date. Now, that is what we call "perfect timing." And, through Dory's influence, I gave up the party-hardy night club life -- and for twenty three years have been a Christ Follower. Is there any doubt this was God's perfect timing?

Ecclesiastes 3:11 (nkjv), "He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, . . ."

Proverbs 16:9 (nkjv), "A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps."

Romans 8:28 (nasb), "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
I am curious to know if all or some of us have similar "growing pains" in our faith.
As we all know, it's easy to be faithful when life is going smoothly.
The one thing that "rocks my boat" is when things that COULD be prevented are not prevented. Lots of people say stuff like, "Well it was God's will, etc".
I struggle with that. How can a loving God allow childhood cancer? Natural disasters?
Immense human suffering is when I have the most profound troubles with faith- my mind just can't get around it.
Any thoughts??


Veep,

Contradictions, mysteries, and evil deeds are the stuff of religion. Vast numbers of gods, demi-gods, saints, spirits all cannot be the true manifestations of the One True God. If human rights are god-given, why are they not more universal? (And you fundies out there spare me the "free will" BS.)

All these conundrums are because you believe there is a god first, then look for excuses for his malicious behavior.

It all becomes clear when one realizes that humans made the gods. When one actively sees that the world without God would look exactly like it does, then one'll know.

We must have the courage to put aside childish delusions and accept the world as we find it. Inner peace depends upon it.
quote:
We must have the courage to put aside childish delusions and accept the world as we find it. Inner peace depends upon it.


I don't think belief in God is childish, nor delusional, BCBG. You know that.
I don't look for excuses for God- I simply don't understand why there has to be suffering. Many answered in a way I can understand- the reasons will be revealed later. That's tough to swallow, and doesn't cut it in the "heat" of a crisis (at least not for me).
I wish it could, but I'm being honest here, and there are times when I feel like "what's the point".
Grateful that God is patient and merciful, and I do stay faithful.
I know you don't believe this- I was simply wondering if anyone else has the same struggles. Or is it just me, and I suck at it. (haha). Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
If human rights are god-given, why are they not more universal?


Can you expand on that?


What are the "god-given" rights we enjoy?

Freedom of expression?

Freedom of religion?

Freedom over our own bodies?

Freedom of thought?


These freedoms are rare. We are privileged to live in a country where we take them for granted, well most of us do.

These freedoms are not given by god. If they were, wouldn't they be everywhere?

Kidneys could be assigned to god. We all have kidneys.

Human, civil rights are nothing of the sort. Thomas Paine (god bless him) invented universal human rights less than 250 years ago. His declaration, explanation, and defense of that hypothesis was the high point of the Enlightenment. Before Paine, only aristocracy had rights. Divine rights. But Paine extended them to everyone.

If you want to worship someone for your freedoms and ability to express any intellectual or religious opinion you want, worship Paine.

I don't worship him, I'm not a worshiping kind of guy, and I would not insult Paine with worship, but to each one's own. I do respect the heck out of the guy, however.

It's another mystery why Americans have certain rights, yet Somalis don't. If rights were god-given, would not the Somalis have them as well? They have kidneys.

You know the answer to the mystery. Both rights and the gods are human constructs. Rights, however, are a fine and positive construct.
quote:
It's another mystery why Americans have certain rights, yet Somalis don't. If rights were god-given, would not the Somalis have them as well? They have kidneys.


Interesting. I daresay that those with no "rights", the victims of oppression are in that position due to the leadership in their respective countries. Not a "lack of Blessings from God"
They have the same physical constitution, but are the victims of unfortunate geography.
Personally, I don't think God plays a hand in politics. In fact, it's a safe assumption to know He does not- otherwise we would not have the mayhem we do now....

The right to Freedom certainly should be available to all- but what the "man" or "man" has done, he has corrupted that with greed and power in certain areas of the world.
Always, victims of oppression are the forefront of my prayers.

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