Now you are assuming what Christ meant Bill.
You believe He was implying Mary was ordinary. I believe He was telling the crowd that all people who believe in God are in His family.
Mary was never given a status at all in that exchange.
Catholics have often pointed to the fact that Mary only appears twice in John's gospel, at two extremely important points: the very beginning and the very end of Christ's ministry. In chapter 2 of his gospel, St. John tells us that Mary prompted Christ to work his first public miracle, which began his public ministry. And in chapter 19 of his gospel, St. John records that Mary appeared again, at the foot of her Son's cross. Then Christ does something unexpected, he looks at St. John and at his mother and to Mary he says, "Woman, behold your son," while to St. John he says, "Behold your mother." And John tells us that from that day forward he took Mary into his own home. From that point forward, he regarded her as his mother.
(Incidentally, since St. John was most probably a cousin of Jesus, if Christ had physical brothers and sisters, why did he give the care of his mother to a cousin instead of one of them. We can see in this passage indirect confirmation for the fact that Mary never had any other children besides the Lord Christ.)
But this passage teaches us something more than just that Christ instituted a special relationship between John and Mary. Bible scholars point out that John's account of the passion and death of Christ has a very unusual, seven-fold structure. Right at the center of this seven-fold structure is the story of Christ telling John to regard Mary as his mother. As a result, something very special and very symbolic is going on here. This is something even very liberal, Protestant theologians acknowledge, and they certainly have no desire to come to conservative, Catholic conclusions about Mary. But even they recognize that something very strange and very wonderful and very symbolic is going on in this passage, they simply are not sure what it is.
The Catholic, however, is sure. The historical Catholic teaching is that in this passage St. John -- the disciple whom Jesus loved -- is made a symbol for every disciple, for every Christian, and that as a result every Christian is to regard Mary as his mother. This is something we could derive on other grounds. Since we are all members of Christ, and since Mary is Christ's mother, Mary is also our mother through Christ.
And it is something that we are told in Revelation 12:17, where St. John tells us that after the dragon is unable to kill the manchild, the Son of Mary, and after he is unable to harm Mary herself, the dragon goes off to make war against "her other seed, who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Revelation 12:17) So this passage teaches us that Christians -- those "who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus Christ" -- count as Mary's "other seed." As Christians, we are all the seed of Mary in a spiritual sense, and so she is our spiritual mother.
Marian Devotion
This has implications for how we live our lives, because we have already looked at the commandment to honor your father and mother. Literally, in Hebrew that is "Glorify your father and mother." We are to bring glory to our parents, and that includes not only our earthly, physical mother but our heavenly, spiritual mother as well. We are to imitate Christ, and just as he brought glory to his mother, we are to bring glory to her as well.
This is something Mary herself said at the beginning of St. Luke's gospel (1:48), when she prophesied under the Holy Spirit, "Behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed." That is a prophecy that has come true in the course of Christian history, and it is the basis of Marian devotion, for that is what we are doing when we honor and glorify Mary: we are calling her blessed on account of all the marvelous things God has done for her and all the glorious graces he has given her.
Conclusion
So let us now use the prayer which has been used by pious Christians down through the centuries to honor their heavenly mother:
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
(Incidentally, since St. John was most probably a cousin of Jesus, if Christ had physical brothers and sisters, why did he give the care of his mother to a cousin instead of one of them. We can see in this passage indirect confirmation for the fact that Mary never had any other children besides the Lord Christ.)
But this passage teaches us something more than just that Christ instituted a special relationship between John and Mary. Bible scholars point out that John's account of the passion and death of Christ has a very unusual, seven-fold structure. Right at the center of this seven-fold structure is the story of Christ telling John to regard Mary as his mother. As a result, something very special and very symbolic is going on here. This is something even very liberal, Protestant theologians acknowledge, and they certainly have no desire to come to conservative, Catholic conclusions about Mary. But even they recognize that something very strange and very wonderful and very symbolic is going on in this passage, they simply are not sure what it is.
The Catholic, however, is sure. The historical Catholic teaching is that in this passage St. John -- the disciple whom Jesus loved -- is made a symbol for every disciple, for every Christian, and that as a result every Christian is to regard Mary as his mother. This is something we could derive on other grounds. Since we are all members of Christ, and since Mary is Christ's mother, Mary is also our mother through Christ.
And it is something that we are told in Revelation 12:17, where St. John tells us that after the dragon is unable to kill the manchild, the Son of Mary, and after he is unable to harm Mary herself, the dragon goes off to make war against "her other seed, who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Revelation 12:17) So this passage teaches us that Christians -- those "who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus Christ" -- count as Mary's "other seed." As Christians, we are all the seed of Mary in a spiritual sense, and so she is our spiritual mother.
Marian Devotion
This has implications for how we live our lives, because we have already looked at the commandment to honor your father and mother. Literally, in Hebrew that is "Glorify your father and mother." We are to bring glory to our parents, and that includes not only our earthly, physical mother but our heavenly, spiritual mother as well. We are to imitate Christ, and just as he brought glory to his mother, we are to bring glory to her as well.
This is something Mary herself said at the beginning of St. Luke's gospel (1:48), when she prophesied under the Holy Spirit, "Behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed." That is a prophecy that has come true in the course of Christian history, and it is the basis of Marian devotion, for that is what we are doing when we honor and glorify Mary: we are calling her blessed on account of all the marvelous things God has done for her and all the glorious graces he has given her.
Conclusion
So let us now use the prayer which has been used by pious Christians down through the centuries to honor their heavenly mother:
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
quote:Originally posted by b50m:
Now you are assuming what Christ meant Bill. You believe He was implying Mary was ordinary. I believe He was telling the crowd that all people who believe in God are in His family. Mary was never given a status at all in that exchange.
Hi B,
Through studying the Word of God, we all can know what Jesus Christ is telling us. The Bible is not meant to be a book of riddles nor is it meant to confuse us. This is why it is important that we be in Scripture daily -- and why it is important to encourage others to do the same.
If our discussions, even when we disagree -- will encourage, prompt, or in any other way, lead others to get into Scripture daily -- then you and I have accomplished the task He has given us.
I agree with your interpretation also. We are all equal in the Family of God. Only God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are elevated in praise and worship. The rest of us, ALL of us, who are believers -- and this would include Mary -- are sitting in the same pews, waiting for the Rapture and our glorified bodies.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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FYI
Catholics don't worship Mary.
Catholics don't worship Mary.
quote:The Bible is not meant to be a book of riddles nor is it meant to confuse us.
But it does Bill, as you already know. If it was straight forward, there would not be thousands of splits and factions of denominations.
quote:Originally posted by House of David:
(Incidentally, since St. John was most probably a cousin of Jesus, if Christ had physical brothers and sisters, why did he give the care of his mother to a cousin instead of one of them. We can see in this passage indirect confirmation for the fact that Mary never had any other children besides the Lord Christ.)
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Hi David,
I have two thoughts: First, if I were dying, I would want to leave my mother in the care of the person whom I thought could best care for her. I would do this regardless of how many siblings or other relatives were around. So, the logic you use does not hold water.
Scripture does clearly tell us that Jesus Christ had brothers and sisters, siblings!
And, for the Hail Mary -- it is not Biblical. Where in the Bible do you find the words, "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you." I searched all the different Bible translations -- and cannot find these words. Maybe you can help me. Where are they in your Bible?
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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It is commonly described as consisting of three parts. The first, "Hail (Mary) full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women", embodies the words used by the Angel Gabriel in saluting the Blessed Virgin (Luke, I, 28). The second, "and blessed is the fruit of thy womb (Jesus)", is borrowed from the Divinely inspired greeting of St. Elizabeth (Luke 1:42), which attaches itself the more naturally to the first part, because the words "benedicta tu in mulieribus" (I, 28) or "inter mulieres" (I, 42) are common to both salutations. Finally, the petition "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen." is stated by the official "Catechism of the Council of Trent" to have been framed by the Church itself. "Most rightly", says the Catechism, "has the Holy Church of God added to this thanksgiving, petition also and the invocation of the most holy Mother of God, thereby implying that we should piously and suppliantly have recourse to her in order that by her intercession she may reconcile God with us sinners and obtain for us the blessing we need both for this present life and for the life which has no end."
Or if you prefer a wiki page Bill:
Biblical source
Madonna by Pompeo Batoni, 1742.
The prayer incorporates two passages from Saint Luke's Gospel: "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee" (Luke 1 28: Χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ Κύριος μετὰ σοῦ / Chaire, kecharitōmenē, o Kyrios meta sou), and "Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" (Luke 1:42: Εὐλογημένη σὺ ἐν γυναιξὶν καὶ εὐλογημένος ὁ καρπὸς τῆς κοιλίας σου / eulogēmenē su en gynaixin kai eulogēmenos o karpos tēs koilias sou). In mid-13th-century Western Europe the prayer consisted only of these words with the single addition of the name "Mary" after the word "Hail", as is evident from the commentary of Saint Thomas Aquinas on the prayer.[1]
The first of the two passages from Saint Luke's Gospel is the greeting of the Angel Gabriel to Mary, originally written in Koine Greek. The opening word of greeting, χαῖρε, chaíre, here translated "Hail", literally has the meaning "Rejoice", "Be glad". This was the normal greeting in the language in which Saint Luke's Gospel is written and continues to be used in the same sense in Modern Greek. Accordingly, both "Hail" and "Rejoice" are valid English translations of the word ("Hail" reflecting the Latin translation, and "Rejoice" reflecting the original Greek).
The word κεχαριτωμένη, (kecharitōménē), here translated as "full of grace", admits of various translations. Grammatically, the word is the feminine present perfect passive voice participle of the verb χαριτόω[2], charitóō, which means "to show, or bestow with, grace" and, in the passive voice, "to have grace shown, or bestowed upon, one". The form of the verb is intensive, hence the translations "full of grace".[3]
Biblical source
Madonna by Pompeo Batoni, 1742.
The prayer incorporates two passages from Saint Luke's Gospel: "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee" (Luke 1 28: Χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ Κύριος μετὰ σοῦ / Chaire, kecharitōmenē, o Kyrios meta sou), and "Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" (Luke 1:42: Εὐλογημένη σὺ ἐν γυναιξὶν καὶ εὐλογημένος ὁ καρπὸς τῆς κοιλίας σου / eulogēmenē su en gynaixin kai eulogēmenos o karpos tēs koilias sou). In mid-13th-century Western Europe the prayer consisted only of these words with the single addition of the name "Mary" after the word "Hail", as is evident from the commentary of Saint Thomas Aquinas on the prayer.[1]
The first of the two passages from Saint Luke's Gospel is the greeting of the Angel Gabriel to Mary, originally written in Koine Greek. The opening word of greeting, χαῖρε, chaíre, here translated "Hail", literally has the meaning "Rejoice", "Be glad". This was the normal greeting in the language in which Saint Luke's Gospel is written and continues to be used in the same sense in Modern Greek. Accordingly, both "Hail" and "Rejoice" are valid English translations of the word ("Hail" reflecting the Latin translation, and "Rejoice" reflecting the original Greek).
The word κεχαριτωμένη, (kecharitōménē), here translated as "full of grace", admits of various translations. Grammatically, the word is the feminine present perfect passive voice participle of the verb χαριτόω[2], charitóō, which means "to show, or bestow with, grace" and, in the passive voice, "to have grace shown, or bestowed upon, one". The form of the verb is intensive, hence the translations "full of grace".[3]
quote:Originally posted by b50m:But it does Bill, as you already know. If it was straight forward, there would not be thousands of splits and factions of denominations.quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:
The Bible is not meant to be a book of riddles nor is it meant to confuse us.
Hi B,
The Bible is only confusing to those who will not spend enough time to understand it. Yes, a person can spend a lifetime studying and learning from the Bible. But, the journey does not start until you begin -- by taking that first step.
Why are there so many denominations and churches? Because there are many people who will twist Scripture in an attempt to make it say what they want to hear.
Gays will twist Scripture to say that Leviticus is speaking of temple prostitutes -- and not homosexuals.
Roman Catholics will twist Scripture to make Mary the Queen of Heaven.
Legalists will twist Scripture to make it say that their church is the only way to salvation.
Mormons will twist Scripture to make it fit the writings of Joseph Smith.
Calvinists twist Scripture to say that only those chosen by God before the Creation will be saved.
Aminianists will twist Scripture to make it say that we can lose our salvation.
And, on and on and on!
Scripture clearly speaks for itself. We just have to remove the agenda-based filters BEFORE studying it.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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quote:Hi David,
I have two thoughts: First, if I were dying, I would want to leave my mother in the care of the person whom I thought could best care for her. I would do this regardless of how many siblings or other relatives were around. So, the logic you use does not hold water.
Bill,
It would have been against Jewish law for Jesus to give his mother to John, if He had blood brothers.
quote:Originally posted by House of David:
It is commonly described as consisting of three parts. The first, "Hail (Mary) full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women", embodies the words used by the Angel Gabriel in saluting the Blessed Virgin (Luke, I, 28). The second, "and blessed is the fruit of thy womb (Jesus)", is borrowed from the Divinely inspired greeting of St. Elizabeth (Luke 1:42), which attaches itself the more naturally to the first part, because the words "benedicta tu in mulieribus" (I, 28) or "inter mulieres" (I, 42) are common to both salutations. Finally, the petition "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen." is stated by the official "Catechism of the Council of Trent" to have been framed by the Church itself. "Most rightly", says the Catechism, "has the Holy Church of God added to this thanksgiving, petition also and the invocation of the most holy Mother of God, thereby implying that we should piously and suppliantly have recourse to her in order that by her intercession she may reconcile God with us sinners and obtain for us the blessing we need both for this present life and for the life which has no end."
Hi David,
The words "Hail Mary" are not in the Bible. And, the rest as you say is borrowed or adapted. Sorry, my Friend, but "something borrowed, something blue" is good for a wedding -- but, it ain't in the Bible.
The Hail Mary prayer is a creation of the Vatican -- and is not in the Bible.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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quote:Originally posted by House of David:quote:Hi David,
I have two thoughts: First, if I were dying, I would want to leave my mother in the care of the person whom I thought could best care for her. I would do this regardless of how many siblings or other relatives were around. So, the logic you use does not hold water.
Bill,
It would have been against Jewish law for Jesus to give his mother to John, if He had blood brothers.
AND, YOUR SOURCE IS. . .?
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quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:quote:Originally posted by House of David:quote:Hi David,
I have two thoughts: First, if I were dying, I would want to leave my mother in the care of the person whom I thought could best care for her. I would do this regardless of how many siblings or other relatives were around. So, the logic you use does not hold water.
Bill,
It would have been against Jewish law for Jesus to give his mother to John, if He had blood brothers.
AND, YOUR SOURCE IS. . .?
Jewish law
quote:The first, "Hail (Mary) full of grace, the Lord is with thee,
Who do you think the angel was talking to?
Martha? Elizabeth? Joan of Arc?
The angel was talking to Mary ..... it's implied
Hail full of grace
Hail full of grace
Hail full of grace
Hail full of grace
Nothing ordinary about that!!!!!!
Mary is full of grace, thank you God, for giving her that grace, and it was by her free will that she said yes to God, she had a choice like the Eve. Mary said yes to God.
She is the second Eve......
Pardon me B50 but I have to say something to Bill,
IT"S IN THE BIBLE!!!!!
IT"S IN THE BIBLE!!!!!
The word trinity is not in the Bible... But we believe in it...
you can't put two and two together????
you can't put two and two together????
Bill,
You twist scripture to mean what you want it to, so don't be condemning the other 1000's for doing the same thing.
HOD,
When Bill adds two and two he gets 25. It's a fundy thing.
You twist scripture to mean what you want it to, so don't be condemning the other 1000's for doing the same thing.
HOD,
When Bill adds two and two he gets 25. It's a fundy thing.
"Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee"
I guess the angel was talking to Hail.
Strange how Hail was carrying the baby Jesus just like Mary. Oh my, Jesus has two mothers. Hail and Mary.
Is that the way it is Bill?
I guess the angel was talking to Hail.
Strange how Hail was carrying the baby Jesus just like Mary. Oh my, Jesus has two mothers. Hail and Mary.
Is that the way it is Bill?
Bill has been shown the ENTIRE Rosary prayer with Biblical Reference- including all mysteries.
He chooses to toss it.
And then begin this circular conversation all over again.
Bill- you know that the Rosary is the Prayer of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ- you have been shown all of this.
Just agree to disagree and move on- but please don't disrespect whom many, many people believe (and KNOW) to be the Mother of God.
Best sometimes to say nothing.
He chooses to toss it.
And then begin this circular conversation all over again.
Bill- you know that the Rosary is the Prayer of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ- you have been shown all of this.
Just agree to disagree and move on- but please don't disrespect whom many, many people believe (and KNOW) to be the Mother of God.
Best sometimes to say nothing.
quote:Originally posted by vplee123: Bill has been shown the ENTIRE Rosary prayer with Biblical Reference- including all mysteries. He chooses to toss it. And then begin this circular conversation all over again. Bill- you know that the Rosary is the Prayer of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ- you have been shown all of this. Just agree to disagree and move on- but please don't disrespect whom many, many people believe (and KNOW) to be the Mother of God. Best sometimes to say nothing.
Hi VP,
You have shown us the Vatican's Tradition explanation of your Hail Mary prayer. But, I do not recall ever seeing a TRUE Biblical explanation.
Humor me just this one time -- and give us YOUR Biblical explanation. Of course, if you cannot -- we understand. Because we know it is NOT in the Bible.
Yes, you can piece together a bit here and a bit there -- and then declare, "Well, this is what could have been meant!"
Sorry, my Friend, either it is Biblical or it is Vatican Tradition -- and we both know which.
Mary, as blessed as she was to have been the birth mother of the Human Jesus Christ -- was just an ordinary blessed woman. And, today, she is just one of billions of saints, along with her other earthly children, waiting in heaven to get her glorified body. She is nothing more, nothing less.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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Whatsamatter graysnake? having some kind of tamponly day? i think you need chocolate.
you are such a disco stick with your never ending evil lying evil thinking
you are such a disco stick with your never ending evil lying evil thinking
quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:quote:Originally posted by vplee123: Bill has been shown the ENTIRE Rosary prayer with Biblical Reference- including all mysteries. He chooses to toss it. And then begin this circular conversation all over again. Bill- you know that the Rosary is the Prayer of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ- you have been shown all of this. Just agree to disagree and move on- but please don't disrespect whom many, many people believe (and KNOW) to be the Mother of God. Best sometimes to say nothing.
Hi VP,
billgay, I will say nothing either to give you time to go brush your teeth after another
round of your diarrhetic flow of evil,stupid,slanted,twisted lying again as always.
So I'm speechless.
Bill, yes, it is all solidly based on Scripture. Just search the forum archives, as this has all been discussed and defended.
MANY TIMES!
quote:Originally posted by Kraven:
billgay, I will say nothing either to give you time to go brush your teeth after another round of your diarrhetic flow of Evil,stupid,slanted,twisted lying again as always. So I'm speechless.
ARE "ALL" ROMAN CATHOLICS AS ELOQUENT AS YOU? - SHOULD I VIEW "YOU" AS TYPICAL OF "ALL" ROMAN CATHOLICS?
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quote:Originally posted by vplee123:
Bill, yes, it is all solidly based on Scripture. Just search the forum archives, as this has all been discussed and defended.
NOT A PROBLEM! - I UNDERSTAND - YOU "CANNOT" DEFEND YOUR MARIOLOGY BASED UPON SCRIPTURE.
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"Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee"
I guess the angel was talking to Hail.
Strange how Hail was carrying the baby Jesus just like Mary. Oh my, Jesus has two mothers. Hail and Mary.
Is that the way it is Bill?
I guess the angel was talking to Hail.
Strange how Hail was carrying the baby Jesus just like Mary. Oh my, Jesus has two mothers. Hail and Mary.
Is that the way it is Bill?
BILL, DO TWO PEOPLE USE YOUR COMPUTER? ONE OF YOU LOVES TO SHOUT ONE LINERS IN ALL CAPS, and the other gives detailed discussion with references and scriptures marked.
I'm going with you are the shouter and your wife types the good stuff.
I'm going with you are the shouter and your wife types the good stuff.
quote:Originally posted by b50m:
BILL, DO TWO PEOPLE USE YOUR COMPUTER? ONE OF YOU LOVES TO SHOUT ONE LINERS IN ALL CAPS, and the other gives detailed discussion with references and scriptures marked. I'm going with you are the shouter and your wife types the good stuff.
Hi B,
So good to hear from you. Actually, the reason for the caps and bolds is so that our athiest and Roman Catholic Friends will not miss anything.
You see, the atheists are spiritually blind and need larger and bolder letters to be able to read.
And, our Roman Catholic Friends are always having to look over the shoulders of their pope, bishops, and priests to see what the Bible really means -- since they are not allowed to interpret the Bible.
So, to make sure they can see when they stand on tippy toes to look over the shoulders -- I put it in bold caps.
And, see, you thought I was doing it just to bug you! I am hurt that you would think that of me!
Y'all come back now, ya heah?
Bill
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quote:And, our Roman Catholic Friends are always having to look over the shoulders of their pope, bishops, and priests to see what the Bible really means -- since they are not allowed to interpret the Bible.
Nice...
Bill, don't presume to know what Catholics do/think/believe. You have no clue what it means to be a Catholic Christian.
You just don't understand, and I doubt you ever will.
I am SO THANKFUL that the Church had the foresight to see that people would twist and mangle Sacred Scripture, and gave us the Catechism. A true gift from God.
Whew! It is so much easier and safer than flailing through the nonsense of spinoff denominations, labelling people pre-wrath, post-trib, Fundamental, Liberal, blah, blah, blah.
I am SO THANKFUL and SO BLESSED to be a Catholic.
Yall go on and have fun telling everyone else what Jesus "really" meant...
quote:Hi B,
So good to hear from you.
BILL, ARE YOU GETTING SENILE? I HAVEN'T GONE ANYWHERE.
I'll go with my original idea, you are the shouter with the sick sense of humor, your wife has the intelligence.
quote:Originally posted by vplee123:quote:And, our Roman Catholic Friends are always having to look over the shoulders of their pope, bishops, and priests to see what the Bible really means -- since they are not allowed to interpret the Bible.
Nice...
Bill, don't presume to know what Catholics do/think/believe. You have no clue what it means to be a Catholic Christian.
DO YOU?
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Both are Bill. He's schizophrenic. His wife suffers in silence.
quote:Originally posted by CrustyMac:
Both are Bill. He's schizophrenic. His wife suffers in silence.
She probably does as Bill follows the edict of the wife has to be barefoot, pregnant, and silent.
quote:Originally posted by b50m:quote:Hi B,
So good to hear from you.
BILL, ARE YOU GETTING SENILE? I HAVEN'T GONE ANYWHERE.
I'll go with my original idea, you are the shouter with the sick sense of humor, your wife has the intelligence.
b50......Do you really know if she's still with him?
quote:Originally posted by O No!:
So Bill, do you think this man was saved?
I think there is something about a death bed confession.
With an experience like that, who knows.
BK