Skip to main content

Bill says: The man has no respect for Christians and our beliefs -- beliefs this country was founded upon. As soon as he took office, he ran to the Muslim nations waving a white flag and declaring that America is not a Christian nation. That would certainly have been news to our founding fathers.

Other opinions are:
The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense founded on the Christian religion

Many Religious Right activists have attempted to rewrite history by asserting that the United States government derived from Christian foundations, that our Founding Fathers originally aimed for a Christian nation. This idea simply does not hold to the historical evidence.

Of course many Americans did practice Christianity, but so also did many believe in deistic philosophy. Indeed, most of our influential Founding Fathers, although they respected the rights of other religionists, held to deism and Freemasonry tenets rather than to Christianity.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The U.S. Constitution

The United States Constitution serves as the law of the land for America and indicates the intent of our Founding Fathers. The Constitution forms a secular document, and nowhere does it appeal to God, Christianity, Jesus, or any supreme being. (For those who think the date of the Constitution contradicts the last sentence, see note 1 at the end.) The U.S. government derives from people (not God), as it clearly states in the preamble: "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union...." The omission of God in the Constitution did not come out of forgetfulness, but rather out of the Founding Fathers purposeful intentions to keep government separate from religion.

Although the Constitution does not include the phrase "Separation of Church & State," neither does it say "Freedom of religion." However, the Constitution implies both in the 1st Amendment. As to our freedoms, the 1st Amendment provides exclusionary wording:

Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. [bold caps, mine]

Thomas Jefferson made an interpretation of the 1st Amendment to his January 1st, 1802 letter to the Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association calling it a "wall of separation between church and State." Madison had also written that "Strongly guarded. . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States." There existed little controversy about this interpretation from our Founding Fathers.

If religionists better understood the concept of separation of Church & State, they would realize that the wall of separation actually protects their religion. Our secular government allows the free expression of religion and non-religion. Today, religions flourish in America; we have more churches than Seven-Elevens.

Although many secular and atheist groups today support and fight for the wall of separation, this does not mean that they wish to lawfully eliminate religion from society. On the contrary, you will find no secular or atheist group attempting to ban Christianity, or any other religion from American society. Keeping religion separate allows atheists and religionists alike, to practice their belief systems, regardless how ridiculous they may seem, without government intervention.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

I don't think it was founded on the "Christian Religion". But to deny that the foundational belief system of Christianity was not a profound factor in many of the words of our Founding Fathers would be foolish to say. Read the Declaration of Independence. The reason you and I have the rights in this country that we do is because our founding fathers did not believe that man bestowed rights to man, only that man was bestowed rights by our Creator.

You are speaking about theology. No, all of our founding fathers did not follow the "Christian theology". But most had a Christian based moral foundation they believed best for this country. Once again, to deny that would be foolish. THEY PRAYED DURING MEETING WITHIN THE WALLS OF THE "GOVERNMENT". The move to remove any and all things "God" from Washington D.C. is a relatively new movement. It is right there on the "to do list" of the Communist Manifesto.
True. Consider the First Prayer of the Continental Congress, 1774...

The following is from http://chaplain.house.gov/archive/continental.html

quote:
O Lord our Heavenly Father, high and mighty King of kings, and Lord of lords, who dost from thy throne behold all the dwellers on earth and reignest with power supreme and uncontrolled over all the Kingdoms, Empires and Governments; look down in mercy, we beseech Thee, on these our American States, who have fled to Thee from the rod of the oppressor and thrown themselves on Thy gracious protection, desiring to be henceforth dependent only on Thee. To Thee have they appealed for the righteousness of their cause; to Thee do they now look up for that countenance and support, which Thou alone canst give. Take them, therefore, Heavenly Father, under Thy nurturing care; give them wisdom in Council and valor in the field; defeat the malicious designs of our cruel adversaries; convince them of the unrighteousness of their Cause and if they persist in their sanguinary purposes, of own unerring justice, sounding in their hearts, constrain them to drop the weapons of war from their unnerved hands in the day of battle!

Be Thou present, O God of wisdom, and direct the councils of this honorable assembly; enable them to settle things on the best and surest foundation. That the scene of blood may be speedily closed; that order, harmony and peace may be effectually restored, and truth and justice, religion and piety, prevail and flourish amongst the people. Preserve the health of their bodies and vigor of their minds; shower down on them and the millions they here represent, such temporal blessings as Thou seest expedient for them in this world and crown them with everlasting glory in the world to come. All this we ask in the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son and our Savior.

Amen.

Reverend Jacob Duché
Rector of Christ Church of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
September 7, 1774, 9 o’clock a.m.


The following is from http://www.army.mil/-news/2010...-at-prayer-luncheon/

quote:
Barton traced America's religious heritage back to the First Continental Congress of 1774.

He said the Journals of Congress show that George Washington, Patrick Henry, John Adams and more than 50 others gathered in Philadelphia and opened with two hours of prayer before addressing the pressing issue of British oppression in the 13 colonies.


----------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by _Joy_
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
I don't think it was founded on the "Christian Religion". But to deny that the foundational belief system of Christianity was not a profound factor in many of the words of our Founding Fathers would be foolish to say. Read the Declaration of Independence. The reason you and I have the rights in this country that we do is because our founding fathers did not believe that man bestowed rights to man, only that man was bestowed rights by our Creator.

You are speaking about theology. No, all of our founding fathers did not follow the "Christian theology". But most had a Christian based moral foundation they believed best for this country. Once again, to deny that would be foolish. THEY PRAYED DURING MEETING WITHIN THE WALLS OF THE "GOVERNMENT". The move to remove any and all things "God" from Washington D.C. is a relatively new movement. It is right there on the "to do list" of the Communist Manifesto.
I guess you didn't click the link and read the entire opinion.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Declaration of Independence

Many Christian's who think of America as founded upon Christianity usually present the Declaration of Independence as "proof" of a Christian America. The reason appears obvious: the Declaration mentions God. (You may notice that some Christians avoid the Constitution, with its absence of God.)

However, the Declaration of Independence does not represent any law of the United States. It came before the establishment of our lawful government (the Constitution). The Declaration aimed at announcing the separation of America from Great Britain and it listed the various grievances with them. The Declaration includes the words, "The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America." The grievances against Great Britain no longer hold today, and we have more than thirteen states.

Although the Declaration may have influential power, it may inspire the lofty thoughts of poets and believers, and judges may mention it in their summations, it holds no legal power today. It represents a historical document about rebellious intentions against Great Britain at a time before the formation of our government.

Of course the Declaration stands as a great political document. Its author aimed at a future government designed and upheld by people and not based on a superstitious god or religious monarchy. It observed that all men "are created equal" meaning that we all have the natural ability of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That "to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men." Please note that the Declaration says nothing about our rights secured by Christianity. It bears repeating: "Governments are instituted among men."

The pursuit of happiness does not mean a guarantee of happiness, only that we have the freedom to pursue it. Our Law of the Land incorporates this freedom of pursuit in the Constitution. We can believe or not believe as we wish. We may succeed or fail in our pursuit, but our Constitution (and not the Declaration) protects our unalienable rights in our attempt at happiness.

Moreover, the mentioning of God in the Declaration does not describe the personal God of Christianity. Thomas Jefferson who held deist beliefs, wrote the majority of the Declaration. The Declaration describes "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God." This nature's view of God agrees with deist philosophy and might even appeal to those of pantheistical beliefs, but any attempt to use the Declaration as a support for Christianity will fail for this reason alone.
Ooo, another good one...love that sources are listed.

quote:
Spiritual Heritage – The Founding Era

The Supreme Court of the United States affirmed this spiritual heritage in a unanimous ruling declaring “This is a religious people. . . .
From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation.”1

Political scientists have documented that the most frequently-cited source in the political period known as The Founding Era was the Bible.2

The first act of America’s first Congress in 1774 was to ask a minister to open with prayer3 and to lead Congress in the reading of four chapters of the Bible.4

Congress regularly attended church and Divine service together en masse,5 and throughout the American Founding, Congress frequently appropriated money for missionaries and for religious instruction6 – a practice that Congress repeated for decades after the passage of the Constitution and the First Amendment.7<


http://www.allabouthistory.org...the-founding-faq.htm

Seriously, it is really silly to deny our founding fathers were religious and that religion greatly influenced all they did. I'm not sure why this is a threat to anyone. History is history.
I'm not dodging anything.. you are. The rights they put in the Constitution were based on those beliefs that only GOD could bestow rights to man, and that man could not bestow rights to other men. That's the only point I'm making. Do you deny the prayers these men prayed to open and close their meetings? Were they not part of the "government"? So if they were the ones who set it up, and they themselves prayed to God the Creator, then where did this silly vision of "Separation of Church and State" come from? If was NOT the vision of our founding fathers. Like I stated, the "evangelical atheist" movement is very new in relative terms to the age of this country. Communism has been seeping up for decades now, and trying to convince folks that rights are in the hands of the "State" is one of the strongest points communists must drive home. That is in direct conflict with what our founding fathers told us.
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
I'm not dodging anything.. you are. The rights they put in the Constitution were based on those beliefs that only GOD could bestow rights to man, and that man could not bestow rights to other men. That's the only point I'm making. Do you deny the prayers these men prayed to open and close their meetings? Were they not part of the "government"? So if they were the ones who set it up, and they themselves prayed to God the Creator, then where did this silly vision of "Separation of Church and State" come from? If was NOT the vision of our founding fathers. Like I stated, the "evangelical atheist" movement is very new in relative terms to the age of this country. Communism has been seeping up for decades now, and trying to convince folks that rights are in the hands of the "State" is one of the strongest points communists must drive home. That is in direct conflict with what our founding fathers told us.
Were you responding to me? Where did I say dodging?
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
Ooo, another good one...love that sources are listed.

quote:
Spiritual Heritage – The Founding Era

The Supreme Court of the United States affirmed this spiritual heritage in a unanimous ruling declaring “This is a religious people. . . .
From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation.”1

Political scientists have documented that the most frequently-cited source in the political period known as The Founding Era was the Bible.2

The first act of America’s first Congress in 1774 was to ask a minister to open with prayer3 and to lead Congress in the reading of four chapters of the Bible.4

Congress regularly attended church and Divine service together en masse,5 and throughout the American Founding, Congress frequently appropriated money for missionaries and for religious instruction6 – a practice that Congress repeated for decades after the passage of the Constitution and the First Amendment.7<


http://www.allabouthistory.org...the-founding-faq.htm

Seriously, it is really silly to deny our founding fathers were religious and that religion greatly influenced all they did. I'm not sure why this is a threat to anyone. History is history.


I won't deny that many of our founding fathers were religious, but they understood the importance of not imposing their or anyone elses religion on the citizens of our nation. It is not silly to guard those principles at all. Read what Jennifer quoted from a post by Bill Gray. Those that think like him are a threat to our great democracy. If he had it his way prayer would be led in schools, creationism would be taught as science. I dare say that he would oppose any person as President that was not a christian. If you agree with him then you would be someone I would consider a threat to my freedoms and to our great country also.

I just read in another thread where Bill quoted the phrase "If we ignore history it is bound to repeat itself" He should really think about that statement. Our founding fathers were trying to create a nation free of religious rule. They fought to separate themselves from just such a government. Anyone that can not or does not understand that is purposefully trying to project their own agenda and not those of our founding fathers.
I'm not Bill Gray. I'm Joy; and I did not say it was silly to guard those principles. I said it is silly to deny our founding fathers were religious and that religion greatly influenced all they did.

Bill and I don't agree on much. I think the bare basics of Christianity may be the extent to what we actually agree on...lol.
Last edited by _Joy_
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
I don't think it was founded on the "Christian Religion". But to deny that the foundational belief system of Christianity was not a profound factor in many of the words of our Founding Fathers would be foolish to say. Read the Declaration of Independence. The reason you and I have the rights in this country that we do is because our founding fathers did not believe that man bestowed rights to man, only that man was bestowed rights by our Creator.


i agree with everything you wrote there. however, take note of the word "creator." they purposefully chose that word that pays homage to the god of any religion and the "god of spinoza," i.e. "nature." there were actually quite a bit of heated debate from those who wanted Jesus's name or some directed name of Yahweh. fortunately, our founding fathers knew better so keep our founding documents as neutral with regard to "god" as possible . that is known as "secular."


quote:
The move to remove any and all things "God" from Washington D.C. is a relatively new movement. It is right there on the "to do list" of the Communist Manifesto.


then you go off the deep end of the ocean of stupidity. both sides of the argument have been at odds from the very beginning of our nation's birth. the tug of war pulls one way for a while then the other. right now, we are witnessing an attempt by secularists to undo the damage caused by the mccarthy era where "god" was placed into our pledge, on our money and in our courtrooms. the religionists are understandable upset but that is tough doo-doo. our constitution demands it.

atheists do not want to "remove god" from the government. that is impossible. what we want is for our government to remain as neutral as possible with regard to religion.
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
what we want is for our government to remain as neutral as possible with regard to religion.


That would be good for Christians as well, but is this the case? Are they remaining neutral? CAN they remain completely neutral? Laws do touch religion. Our government striving to remain as neutral as possible may be the best for which we can hope.
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
I'm not Bill Gray. I'm Joy; and I did not say it was silly to guard those principles. I said it is silly to deny our founding fathers were religious and that religion greatly influenced all they did.


I know that JOY. The point is that it is people like Bill that make it very important to keep pointing out that our country was not founded on christianity. Our founding fathers might have been religious but in no way did they intend for this country to be one ruled by religion of any one flavor.

I ask if you agreed with him. I did not say you did. I ask.
Big Grin

Okay, okay. Sorry! Smiler

This one does put me at odds with myself. I do not know for sure, but I know it's quite possible that much of our blessings in this country came as a result of "In God We Trust" and the like. So, I fear that our country turning away from God will loose his hand of protection and blessing on our country. So, for a believer, we see possible disaster when we remove God's name from anything that represents the US.

Regardless, I think the founding fathers were wise to protect the freedom to believe however we choose, as faith cannot be forced. The appearance of faith can, but not faith from within.
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
That would be good for Christians as well, but is this the case?


well, that depends on what you mean by "neutral." some say that removing the 10-commandments is forcing atheism into our laws. some say preventing a teacher from handing out bibles to a class is a violation of her rights. completely wrong on both counts, of course. i would be just as angered at some judge throwing up the Humanist Manifesto on the courtroom wall or a history teacher espousing atheism.

i guarantee that you'd see us atheists come out in force if a judge decided to post the Humanist Manefesto on his wall. i darn sure would. we know that to allow that means to allow everything else.

so, all that to say, yes, i believe it is the case that we secularists and politically active atheists have one goal in mind: NEUTRAL with regard to religion.
quote:
This one does put me at odds with myself. I do not know for sure, but I know it's quite possible that much of our blessings in this country came as a result of "In God We Trust" and the like.



and you are free to believe that, of course. but the other side of the coin for us secularists is that if our government is going to allow that, they also have to allow for a wiccan and muslim and hindu statement. how would you feel if there were a "alla ackbar!: on our money or any other magical protection incantations? How about a "grow up! there are no gods!" printed?

like you and "in god we trust", a part of me would actually like to see "there are no gods" because, like you, i think it would be good for our country if more people embraced reality. but i also know the danger to my own rights is very real if that were to happen.

so i don't and would fight those who would, including the people in our government.
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
That would be good for Christians as well, but is this the case?


well, that depends on what you mean by "neutral." some say that removing the 10-commandments is forcing atheism into our laws. some say preventing a teacher from handing out bibles to a class is a violation of her rights. completely wrong on both counts, of course. i would be just as angered at some judge throwing up the Humanist Manifesto on the courtroom wall or a history teacher espousing atheism.

i guarantee that you'd see us atheists come out in force if a judge decided to post the Humanist Manefesto on his wall. i darn sure would. we know that to allow that means to allow everything else.

so, all that to say, yes, i believe it is the case that we secularists and politically active atheists have one goal in mind: NEUTRAL with regard to religion.

Umm, this concern sounds similar to the claim that our children should learn to consume dangerous drugs in moderation.

Uno I bet you vote wet.
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
I don't think it was founded on the "Christian Religion". But to deny that the foundational belief system of Christianity was not a profound factor in many of the words of our Founding Fathers would be foolish to say. Read the Declaration of Independence. The reason you and I have the rights in this country that we do is because our founding fathers did not believe that man bestowed rights to man, only that man was bestowed rights by our Creator.


i agree with everything you wrote there. however, take note of the word "creator." they purposefully chose that word that pays homage to the god of any religion and the "god of spinoza," i.e. "nature." there were actually quite a bit of heated debate from those who wanted Jesus's name or some directed name of Yahweh. fortunately, our founding fathers knew better so keep our founding documents as neutral with regard to "god" as possible . that is known as "secular."


quote:
The move to remove any and all things "God" from Washington D.C. is a relatively new movement. It is right there on the "to do list" of the Communist Manifesto.


then you go off the deep end of the ocean of stupidity. both sides of the argument have been at odds from the very beginning of our nation's birth. the tug of war pulls one way for a while then the other. right now, we are witnessing an attempt by secularists to undo the damage caused by the mccarthy era where "god" was placed into our pledge, on our money and in our courtrooms. the religionists are understandable upset but that is tough doo-doo. our constitution demands it.

atheists do not want to "remove god" from the government. that is impossible. what we want is for our government to remain as neutral as possible with regard to religion.


you are by far the biggest *******s on this forum... DROP THE NAMECALLING GARBAGE! How pathetic one must be to call someone stupid because they have differing views.

Now... I agree they wanted neutrality... However, DID THEY OR DID THEY NOT THEMSELVES OPEN AND CLOSE MEETINGS WITH PRAYER?? Now... if you answer anything other than simply a "YES" then you must only look in the mirror to find true stupidity.

Never did I say they wanted all Americans to be Christians... if so, show me the post..... ain't there is it *******s. I clearly stated that they used fundamental Christian based beliefs as a guide to many of the building aspects for the new country they were laying the foundation for. I know you are conservative on most of your political views, but this is Communism 101. Christian based beliefs helped mold a system of gov't that COULD NOT hand out rights to citizens simply because if the state could give rights, then they could take rights. Communism has to remove God simply because they want to brainwash the citizens into believing the state hands out the rights. Removing God is one of the first goals they need to acheive.

There is no separation of church and state in terms of the horse crap definition we hear today... DOES NOT EXIST! That phrase is to protect CHURCHS from the government. Not protect the gov't from God. Do you really not get it? It's really that simple. If THE PEOPLE want God as part of the gov't then they can have it, if they don't they won't. To tell a courthouse they can't have the ten commandments posted is garbage and unconstitutional. Just as it would be unconstitutional to force a courthouse to post the ten commandments. It's a simple thing that has been clouded by whining athiests and communists.
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
You own article belies your argument. If the point of separation of church and state was to protect religion, it was founded upon religious beliefs. Smiler


It was founded to protect religious thought, in all its forms. That includes atheism, the rejection of such. Therefor, the country was founded on atheist beliefs as much as religious.

That's nonsense, of course. We can't have it both ways if the country was founded on religious beliefs after any fashion. The country was founded on secularism, the notion that the state should butt out of religion, non-religion, meta-religion, good religion, bad religion, etc. One unfortunate by-product of our attempts at secularism is the ability of hucksters (Mormons and Scientologists come to mind, but there are others) who simply call their scams religion and are protected behind the wall. Perhaps that is the price we pay not to have to bend the knee to the Church of America.


nsns
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
You own article belies your argument. If the point of separation of church and state was to protect religion, it was founded upon religious beliefs.

It was founded to protect religious thought, in all its forms. That includes atheism, the rejection of such. Therefor, the country was founded on atheist beliefs as much as religious.

That's nonsense, of course. We can't have it both ways if the country was founded on religious beliefs after any fashion. The country was founded on secularism, the notion that the state should butt out of religion, non-religion, meta-religion, good religion, bad religion, etc. One unfortunate by-product of our attempts at secularism is the ability of hucksters (Mormons and Scientologists come to mind, but there are others) who simply call their scams religion and are protected behind the wall. Perhaps that is the price we pay not to have to bend the knee to the Church of America.

Hi Deep,

Correct me if I'm wrong -- but, the founding fathers approved funds to purchase and distribute 20 THOUSAND BIBLES throughout the colonies -- not 20,000 copies of Paines writings, nor the writings of the predecessors of Dawkins, Hitchens, et al?

Not sure what message that send to you -- but, to me, this says that they wanted the Christian influence of the Bible spread throughout the colonies.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 1_-_USA_Flag-Map_Cross-Hands_1d
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
You own article belies your argument. If the point of separation of church and state was to protect religion, it was founded upon religious beliefs.

It was founded to protect religious thought, in all its forms. That includes atheism, the rejection of such. Therefor, the country was founded on atheist beliefs as much as religious.

That's nonsense, of course. We can't have it both ways if the country was founded on religious beliefs after any fashion. The country was founded on secularism, the notion that the state should butt out of religion, non-religion, meta-religion, good religion, bad religion, etc. One unfortunate by-product of our attempts at secularism is the ability of hucksters (Mormons and Scientologists come to mind, but there are others) who simply call their scams religion and are protected behind the wall. Perhaps that is the price we pay not to have to bend the knee to the Church of America.

Hi Deep,

Correct me if I'm wrong -- but, the founding fathers approved funds to purchase and distribute 20 THOUSAND BIBLES throughout the colonies -- not 20,000 copies of Paines writings, nor the writings of the predecessors of Dawkins, Hitchens, et al?

Not sure what message that send to you -- but, to me, this says that they wanted the Christian influence of the Bible spread throughout the colonies.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Hi Bill,

As I understand it, people were bored. It had been a long winter, they didn't have cable and the erotic novels of the day were few and far between, as were women.

The bibles were sent to lull the populace into such a state of detachment that they wouldn't kill off one another or expire from chronic masturbation.


It was an effective diversion.
quote:
Originally posted by Opie Cunningham:
As I understand it, people were bored. It had been a long winter, they didn't have cable and the erotic novels of the day were few and far between, as were women .

The bibles were sent to lull the populace into such a state of detachment that they wouldn't kill off one another or expire from chronic masturbation.
It was an effective diversion.


Good grief!!! Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
True. Consider the First Prayer of the Continental Congress, 1774...

The following is from http://chaplain.house.gov/archive/continental.html

quote:
O Lord our Heavenly Father, high and mighty King of kings, and Lord of lords, who dost from thy throne behold all the dwellers on earth and reignest with power supreme and uncontrolled over all the Kingdoms, Empires and Governments; look down in mercy, we beseech Thee, on these our American States, who have fled to Thee from the rod of the oppressor and thrown themselves on Thy gracious protection, desiring to be henceforth dependent only on Thee. To Thee have they appealed for the righteousness of their cause; to Thee do they now look up for that countenance and support, which Thou alone canst give. Take them, therefore, Heavenly Father, under Thy nurturing care; give them wisdom in Council and valor in the field; defeat the malicious designs of our cruel adversaries; convince them of the unrighteousness of their Cause and if they persist in their sanguinary purposes, of own unerring justice, sounding in their hearts, constrain them to drop the weapons of war from their unnerved hands in the day of battle!

Be Thou present, O God of wisdom, and direct the councils of this honorable assembly; enable them to settle things on the best and surest foundation. That the scene of blood may be speedily closed; that order, harmony and peace may be effectually restored, and truth and justice, religion and piety, prevail and flourish amongst the people. Preserve the health of their bodies and vigor of their minds; shower down on them and the millions they here represent, such temporal blessings as Thou seest expedient for them in this world and crown them with everlasting glory in the world to come. All this we ask in the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son and our Savior.

Amen.

Reverend Jacob Duché
Rector of Christ Church of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
September 7, 1774, 9 o’clock a.m.


The following is from http://www.army.mil/-news/2010...-at-prayer-luncheon/

quote:
Barton traced America's religious heritage back to the First Continental Congress of 1774.

He said the Journals of Congress show that George Washington, Patrick Henry, John Adams and more than 50 others gathered in Philadelphia and opened with two hours of prayer before addressing the pressing issue of British oppression in the 13 colonies.


----------------------------------------------------------------


It is a good idea to double check any claim made by David Barton. He has been repeatedly shown to have produced "quotations" of the founding fathers that proved never were uttered or written by them.
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
It is a good idea to double check any claim made by David Barton. He has been repeatedly shown to have produced "quotations" of the founding fathers that proved never were uttered or written by them.

Hi Beter,

Joy gave source links to validate her points. Do you have documented proof of your claim against Barton?

By this I mean a valid source -- not a "I Hate Barton" Blog -- or a Wikipedia page written by someone who lost to Barton in love or for a job?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Friends_TiggerToo_Bear_Piggy_On-Limb-TEXT
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
It is a good idea to double check any claim made by David Barton. He has been repeatedly shown to have produced "quotations" of the founding fathers that proved never were uttered or written by them.

Hi Beter,

Joy gave source links to validate her points. Do you have documented proof of your claim against Barton?

By this I mean a valid source -- not a "I Hate Barton" Blog -- or a Wikipedia page written by someone who lost to Barton in love or for a job?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill




Bill, I do not accept your criteria for valid sources. After all, one would NOT expect Barton's fans to negatively critique his work. It is those who disagree who are motivated to examine and document flaws in the arguments of their opponents. You might try to poo-poo the sources I have used below, but all of them have been bold enough to put their material out for public scrutiny. Attack not the messenger!

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/founding.htm

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=4053

http://www.sourcewatch.org/ind...p?title=David_Barton

http://www.google.com/#q=david...&fp=b4cdfb480f21c4d2
Okay, here is what cannot be argued. The founding fathers were religious and religion affected their decisions. Most of those who currently hold office are crooks.

bahahaha

No, I was actually going to say that the beliefs of those who currently hold office vary as much as the beliefs of the American people. Good or bad, that will affect their decisions. They are also dealing with society and the issues of 2011, not 1700s.

Am I happy with changes throughout history? Some, not so much, but most I am very happy about. I have rights that I cherish. I would have hated living in the 1700s.
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
Ooo, another good one...love that sources are listed.

quote:
Spiritual Heritage – The Founding Era

The Supreme Court of the United States affirmed this spiritual heritage in a unanimous ruling declaring “This is a religious people. . . .
From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation.”1

Political scientists have documented that the most frequently-cited source in the political period known as The Founding Era was the Bible.2

The first act of America’s first Congress in 1774 was to ask a minister to open with prayer3 and to lead Congress in the reading of four chapters of the Bible.4

Congress regularly attended church and Divine service together en masse,5 and throughout the American Founding, Congress frequently appropriated money for missionaries and for religious instruction6 – a practice that Congress repeated for decades after the passage of the Constitution and the First Amendment.7<


http://www.allabouthistory.org...the-founding-faq.htm

Seriously, it is really silly to deny our founding fathers were religious and that religion greatly influenced all they did. I'm not sure why this is a threat to anyone. History is history.


The above site does list their sources. Just saying.
quote:
Originally posted by ZBA:
It has been well-documented that our founding fathers were Deists. Read quotes from Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, etc. None of them were Christians, they all had a Deist background, and did not conform to Christian principles.


You are going too far to say that ALL were Deists.
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by ZBA:
It has been well-documented that our founding fathers were Deists. Read quotes from Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, etc. None of them were Christians, they all had a Deist background, and did not conform to Christian principles.


You are going too far to say that ALL were Deists.


i think he meant the ones he listed.. the real movers and shakers. the ones on money Smiler

it's not plausable to say ALL of the founding father were deist, but i think i rememebr reading that the majority of the key figures were..
.. but i've been wrong before...
With just a little research it is clear that no one really knows George Washington's views on the matter.

Personally, I don't care one way or another, but to take a few facts, ignore others, then proclaim something like George Washington was/was-not a Christian, and to say it as a matter of fact, is just political spinning.
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by ZBA:
It has been well-documented that our founding fathers were Deists. Read quotes from Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, etc. None of them were Christians, they all had a Deist background, and did not conform to Christian principles.


You are going too far to say that ALL were Deists.


agreed. some were deists, some were full on evangelicals. most were in between. i suspect more than a couple of them were actually atheists (namely thomas jefferson) but that was even more of a taboo word then than it is now.
Treaty of Tripoli
Unlike governments of the past, the American Fathers set up a government divorced from religion. The establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves about its origin; they knew this as an unspoken given. However, as the U.S. delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of America. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the United States to a foreign nation. Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states:

Joel Barlow, U.S. Consul General of Algiers
Copyright National Portait Gallery Smithsonian Institution/Art Resource NY "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Barlow, along with his associate, Captain Richard O'Brien, et al, translated and modified the Arabic version of the treaty into English. From this came the added Amendment 11.

Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797.

http://www.earlyamerica.com/re...ummer97/secular.html
Why do people argue whether or not this is a Christian nation? It is obvious that our country was founded on Christian principals but for anyone who still wants to argue, the U.S. Supreme Court, in the unreversed case of Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 143 U.S. 437 (1892), held that “this is a Christian nation.”
So anyway, with the U.S. Supreme Court decision I think that means it's sort of official.

text of case

Add Reply

Post

Untitled Document
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×