If you were zapped back in time to, let's say, 100 years before Christ, would you be a Jew or a Christian? Technically, Christianity wouldn't have been invented yet.
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quote:Originally posted by Zombie 9tails: If you were zapped back in time to, let's say, 100 years before Christ, would you be a Jew or a Christian? Technically, Christianity wouldn't have been invented yet.
quote:Originally posted by Zombie 9tails:
Judaism is a religion. Non-Jews can convert to Judaism.
quote:For 98,000 years, god watches us suffer through confusion and physical torment with folded arms. Then about 2000 years ago, he sends his son, who is also himself and someone else, to be torn to pieces in an illiterate corner of Palestine, beset with religious freaks of all kinds, to correct his mistakes.
quote:Only those people who understand the "logic" of this action and pay appropriate obeisance are free of god's mistake. Even those people in South America, Africa, Europe, and Asia, not to mention the paleoindians of the good ol' USA, who did not hear of this profound act for hundreds or thousands of years were doomed to everlasting punishment for their ignorance.
Is this fair? Is it reasonable? Is there any shred of righteousness about it?
quote:God didn’t leave the world without a proper testimony about himself (Acts 14,17) and doesn’t condemn anybody without first revealing his grace. Although this article may not offer an acceptable answer to the question in the title, nobody’s salvation depends on how convincing such an answer could be. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross is and remains the only ground for human salvation. Rejecting it (by those who have heard about him) cannot be justified by the lack of intellectual satisfaction one gets from polemical debates.
quote:I reject it. I need no such salvation.
You're the bible scholar here. You know the verses wherein Jesus says only those who accept him are saved.
You're dancing. If all righteous people are saved retroactively or by proxy, then the concept of being saved is meaningless.
Nash, it's all BS. There is nothing from which to be saved. We're all human beings, most good, some bad. We are not born sinners. Sin is a victimless crime.
It's time to move on, buddy.
quote:I do not know that God is just because there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary, e.g., nazi slaughter of Jews, disease, natural disasters, lions ripping apart wildebeasts, and sharks slaughtering sea lions. There is not a single incidence of anyone being saved by God's grace. This mythological being was nothing but cruel, irrational, vindictive an capricious. He has never done one deed that has imporved the human condition.
quote:Salvation from what, Nash?
Salvation presupposes some sort of intrinsic flaw. God knows we have those, but are they salvageable?
Salvation from what? Our unworthiness in the eyes of the god who made us?
You're not in the running for this month's Stop Making Sense award, bud.
quote:Glad you admit that the 98% (minimum) of humans who have existed are incapable of "salvation".
Your declaration serves to demonstrate the cruel and capricious nature of your loving, just god.
quote:"Jews were not murdered by God, they were murdered by men."
They were murdered by God's creations, men, as God stood by and did nothing as his "chosen people" were being butchered.
quote:The "intelligent designer" designed a preditory system of survival that results in the pain and suffering of both humans and animals. Obviously the wildebeast suffers as it is being torn apart. What kind of a barbaric moron would design a system of survival that involves such horrible suffering. The food chain not only proves that God is unjust, but he is a horrible, horrible fiend who revels in animal suffering. He must have been the principle advisor to the Roman emperors for their butchery of animals with their fun games.
quote:Thanks a lot God for sending us such an inept and worthless teacher. Nobody paid a bit of attention to him from from the fourth century right up until the age of enlightenment.
quote:Before secular laws came to their rescue, non-Christians were systemcatically tortured and murdered by Christ's followers. Christians are still acting with intolerance and hate. How about the murder of the abortion doctor? Love and forgiveness would be beneficial to the human condition. Unfortunately, Christians spew forth hate, e.g, non-Christians and homosexuals, and are vindictive against those who don't share their beliefs or follow their practices.
quote:No I am not. I am only quoting Judeo-Christian mythology which says man was created by God. Science of course rejects such a notion.
quote:No, you are wrong and you know it. The mythological biblical God created an imperfect word. There is no God to create anything.
quote:People dying for a silly superstition hardly makes the superstition worthwhile. The fact is there was as much hate, violence, intolerance in the world after Christ as during or before Christ's teachings. His "teaching" was of no value. He failed to teach anybody anything other than to spreaed intolerance in his name. Did Christ leave the world a better place than he found it as great people like Thomas Jefferson have?
quote:The fictious God worshipped by Christians has all the characteristics of a fiend. He is cruel, vindictive, capricious and irrational. The intelligence of people woshipping such a fiend is subject to questioning.
quote:No, I just do not respect their superstitions. However, they are entitled to these beliefs as long as they do not pollute our society with them.
quote:That was a poor choice or words. Sorry. I do think you are very naive. Why would God save you while he allows 15 million children to die from starvation each year; allows terrible human and animal suffering; doesn't bring our nation's misguided war to a close; fails to prevent or cure disease and many more failures. You must be extremely special for
God to single you out for special favors. Maybe you should ask your invisible pal to make a believer out of me so that I will stop soiling his name.
quote:Originally posted by NashBama:
As for your claim that not one person was saved by His grace, I would disagree. I'm one example. Here is another.
Link
quote:Nash, how do you know that it was a God? The Christian God? And what criteria did you use to verify or know this?
quote:BW's story is like all the other's: nothing measurable or quantifiable. Just a supernatural spirit filling him at a moment of weakness.
quote:Originally posted by NashBama:quote:Nash, how do you know that it was a God? The Christian God? And what criteria did you use to verify or know this?
I never asked any other god to change my life. Those people I know and have seen their lives changed never asked any other god. Not only have I observed my own life change significantly, but I've seen others that I worried about change as well.
quote:BW's story is like all the other's: nothing measurable or quantifiable. Just a supernatural spirit filling him at a moment of weakness.
It's impossible to measure or quantify your statement in itself, so how can you know it's true?
quote:Originally posted by 8I:quote:Originally posted by NashBama:quote:Nash, how do you know that it was a God? The Christian God? And what criteria did you use to verify or know this?
I never asked any other god to change my life. Those people I know and have seen their lives changed never asked any other god. Not only have I observed my own life change significantly, but I've seen others that I worried about change as well.
quote:BW's story is like all the other's: nothing measurable or quantifiable. Just a supernatural spirit filling him at a moment of weakness.
It's impossible to measure or quantify your statement in itself, so how can you know it's true?
Sure it is.
He's making a claim.
Where is his evidence?
He, like any reasonable person would provide it if he had it.
Any person would, regardless of belief.
And what have we got?
Nada, zip, zilch....
Christianity is almost like every other religion in that they've got a story and some sort of perfect document.
The truth is that using your supernatural criteria you can't prove or disprove anything, let alone gods, holy spirits, devils, etc.
quote:Originally posted by NashBama:
Zip,
Are you saying that God is incapable of changing someone's life?
quote:Originally posted by CrustyMac:
No, zip is saying that God's presence in your life is pretty much the same as a pair of lucky socks.
quote:Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:quote:Originally posted by NashBama:
Zip,
Are you saying that God is incapable of changing someone's life?
Nope.
quote:Originally posted by NashBama:quote:Originally posted by 8I:quote:Originally posted by NashBama:quote:Nash, how do you know that it was a God? The Christian God? And what criteria did you use to verify or know this?
I never asked any other god to change my life. Those people I know and have seen their lives changed never asked any other god. Not only have I observed my own life change significantly, but I've seen others that I worried about change as well.
quote:BW's story is like all the other's: nothing measurable or quantifiable. Just a supernatural spirit filling him at a moment of weakness.
It's impossible to measure or quantify your statement in itself, so how can you know it's true?
Sure it is.
He's making a claim.
Where is his evidence?
He, like any reasonable person would provide it if he had it.
Any person would, regardless of belief.
And what have we got?
Nada, zip, zilch....
Christianity is almost like every other religion in that they've got a story and some sort of perfect document.
The truth is that using your supernatural criteria you can't prove or disprove anything, let alone gods, holy spirits, devils, etc.
You've also made a claim, where is your evidence?
quote:Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:quote:Originally posted by CrustyMac:
No, zip is saying that God's presence in your life is pretty much the same as a pair of lucky socks.
Not quite that, either.
quote:Originally posted by NashBama:
I never asked any other god to change my life. Those people I know and have seen their lives changed never asked any other god.