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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Firenze,
Firenze, I pray that you will respond to my questions; for I do consider you a Friend.  Respond on the open forum or in a PM, whichever you like.  But, please do respond -- and let's not allow Beter to be the spokesman between us.

We both realize that Jennifer, Chick, and Crusty will do everything in their power to jump into this dialogue.  But, those I can easily ignore.  I am sincere about wanting to hear from you.

Bill

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Chick has every right to "jump into this dialogue". I look forward to Firenze answering your questions. Who knows, I might learn something.

 

Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:

From John Galt 11/27/07:

I am a friend of Interventor. He asked me to say good-by. The day before he traveled to the Shoals he was suspended by the TD administrator. Despite several e-mails to determine the reason or length of suspension, he received no answer. He suspects it is his response to Taciturn on MILF.

 

From Taciturn 11/28/07:

Me too, I feel partly responsible. I was one of those that asked what those letters meant.

From Bud'sfarm 11/28/07:
That’s right, Tac. All you did was ask... all he did was answer... I don’t know because, prude that I am, I didn’t follow it. But it is my understanding, his answer was by a PM so refresh my memory how/why it became public.

 

From Taciturn 11/28/07:

His answer was in a PM, so I'm just as confused how it came to be known if it was. I posted in another discussion (started by me) that he PM'ed me the answer. (which started out as a big mistake on my part, which I corrected as soon as I realized it).

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So where did Taciturn admit reporting the poster?

I agree with DarkAngel in that it sounds like Taciturn was saying that she felt bad because she ask what MILF meant & his answering caused him to get banned.

 

This kind of gossip & your intent to find her guilty w/o proof, & her not here to defend herself is unjust & cruel.

Not something I would think a Christian should do.

Gossip hurts, & I hope you never find yourself on the hurting end of it.

 

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

Hmmmm I have been following this exchange and if that is somehow supposed to prove that this Taciturn admitted that she reported interventor then I think you need to dig up better evidence. That to me reads as if this Taciturn was saying that she felt bad because she ask what MILF meant and by his answering it caused him to get banned.

Please continue.....

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Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:

Yes, DA, she asked in the public forum. Interventor replied in a PM. Now either the admin/mods were reading the PMs or the recipient of the PM reported it or the recipient of the PM forwarded it to another forum member who reported it. Three choices there.

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Three choice's but you said she admitted it. Gossip? Intent to hurt someone that's not here to defend herself?

You betcha!

Hopefully, God is proud of you.

Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:

Yes, DA, she asked in the public forum. Interventor replied in a PM. Now either the admin/mods were reading the PMs or the recipient of the PM reported it or the recipient of the PM forwarded it to another forum member who reported it. Three choices there.

 

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No dog in this fight I guess, but I am curious. If I read the posts correctly he never knew what got him banned. So how do you know there are only three choices? This was in 07 and it's still being discussed?

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

No dog in this fight I guess, but I am curious. If I read the posts correctly he never knew what got him banned. So how do you know there are only three choices? This was in 07 and it's still being discussed?

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Firenze called herself a Christian & I mentioned she shouldn't be judging or spreading gossip about others. She wanted proof she had done that so I gave it to her. You would have to read further up to get the full measure of it.

First to Bill, I asked you to explain one verse and you did not. Why would I now go on to answer anymore of your questions.

 

Second, as for the three choices, there are really only two. The TDF admin stated they could not read PMs, so I believe that to be a true statement. That leaves two choices.

 

That little stunt was hardly the only one Tac pulled. She accused two women (and I was not one of them) of planning to assault her. At one time copies of these accusations were available, but are not now. That was when Tac left the forum or her own accord.

 

As one friend of mine said, Tac is like the child in your class who never gets in trouble but gets everyone else in trouble. There were more comments that were much worse. When Semi said she had heard Tac had passed away, I was concerned and asked two others about it. Tac would certainly not have liked the responses I received.

 

Semi certainly reminded me of Tac from the style of her posts and the fact that she takes great umbrage to anything anyone says. Yesterday Semi entered uninvited into a discussion between Bill and me--that is something she often does. I've tried to be civil to the woman, but I will not let her put words in my mouth or state she knows how I will react to any comments from Bill or anyone else.

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Firenze,
Firenze, I pray that you will respond to my questions; for I do consider you a Friend.  Respond on the open forum or in a PM, whichever you like.  But, please do respond -- and let's not allow Beter to be the spokesman between us.

We both realize that Jennifer, Chick, and Crusty will do everything in their power to jump into this dialogue.  But, those I can easily ignore.  I am sincere about wanting to hear from you.

Bill

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Chick has every right to "jump into this dialogue". I look forward to Firenze answering your questions. Who knows, I might learn something.

 

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Now now, only bill has the right to "jump in" to discussions, like he did with the famous "liver and onions" debate!! I'm still laughing at that one.

 

Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:

First to Bill, I asked you to explain one verse and you did not. Why would I now go on to answer anymore of your questions.

 

Second, as for the three choices, there are really only two. The TDF admin stated they could not read PMs, so I believe that to be a true statement. That leaves two choices.

 

That little stunt was hardly the only one Tac pulled. She accused two women (and I was not one of them) of planning to assault her. At one time copies of these accusations were available, but are not now. That was when Tac left the forum or her own accord.

 

As one friend of mine said, Tac is like the child in your class who never gets in trouble but gets everyone else in trouble. There were more comments that were much worse. When Semi said she had heard Tac had passed away, I was concerned and asked two others about it. Tac would certainly not have liked the responses I received.

 

Semi certainly reminded me of Tac from the style of her posts and the fact that she takes great umbrage to anything anyone says. Yesterday Semi entered uninvited into a discussion between Bill and me--that is something she often does. I've tried to be civil to the woman, but I will not let her put words in my mouth or state she knows how I will react to any comments from Bill or anyone else.

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Be careful, Firenze, your Christianity is showing.

How many times have you & Bill entered into a discussion uninvited?? I would love to see the rule that says we have to be invited to comment on any discussion.

 

You were concerned that Taciturn had passed away? Gosh, how touching. That's almost blasphemy coming from you after the way you have run her down.

 

Here you go with your gossiping & smearing someone again that's not here to defend herself.

"She accused two women (and I was not one of them) of planning to assault her."

"There were more comments that were much worse".


You certainly remind me of someone that used to be on this forum, but that doesn't make it so.

I've received 3 PM's in the past of the terrible things you & a couple of your friends have said about me in PM's. Oh, & for your information those PM's were copied & pasted to me. Why would I want to be civil to anyone that would judge me so harshly? I would respect you much more if you would bring your complaints to me instead of slamming me behind my back!

 

You & your friends sound like people that would dance naked at a funeral of someone you didn't like. That's so very sad.

 




 

 

Semi, forwarded PMs work both ways, or hadn't you thought of that?

 

If I or my friends were concerned about Taciturn, it was because we didn't want to be victims of her lies any longer. Yes, I was genuinely concerned that Tac had passed away, but I can find no record of it, so I assume that was just another...hmmm, what should I call it?

 

Are we to honestly believe that Tac isn't here to "defend" herself?

 

BTW, entering into a discussion uninvited is not the same as posting a person's response in advance.

Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:

Semi, forwarded PMs work both ways, or hadn't you thought of that?

 

Are we to honestly believe that Tac isn't here to "defend" herself?

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Did I say it doesn't work both ways? I have told someone on this forum in a PM that I don't like you. If they have forwarded the PM to you, more power to you both. It's times like this a person can find out who is a true friend. But then I guess true friends can't be found on a forum such as this. Thank you, you've made me realize something very important.

 

Just can't give up hinting that I'm Taciturn, can you? I really don't give a rats behind what you or anyone else "honestly believes". I just don't like to see anyone slandered, no matter who it is. Especially by someone that wears a Christian hat.

You & I have a mutual friend. She has suggested the three of us meet for lunch. I thought that was real funny!!! She has a wild sense of humor.

Last edited by semiannualchick
Originally Posted by semiannualchick:

You & I have a mutual friend. She has suggested the three of us meet for lunch. I thought that was real funny!!! She has a wild sense of humor.

 

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Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:

I can meet any Thursday. In fact I will buy. If Thursday isn't good, let me know what day would be...

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Did you notice I said she has a wild sense of humor?

I'll say the same to you I did her. Why would I want to waste my time having lunch with someone that despises me, has made no secret of it, & whom I also dislike?

And what was this thread about?

 

Ohh yes. two points.

 #1. Hitchens is a coward. He says he wants to free Isreal, iran and Saudi arabia from the evil of religion. But he does it quite comfortably here in the west under the freedom of speech won by Christian liberty. Hitchens knows that he wouldn't last 15 minutes in those countries preaching his hateful message. Hitchens loves the fame he gets from his speeches, but he non too soon is willing to suffer or give his life for his belief.

  He has selective memory, completely ignoring the sacrifices of manywho actually do go to that part of the world and try to make a difference. Many like the American girl who was run over by an Isreali bulldozer while protesting the expansion of those settlements he decries.

 

#2.  Hitchens doesn't really believe his own hooey.  I ask you again Deepfat, give me the names of atheist organizations that: provide healthcare to those in need, especially 3rd world countries, provide food to those hungry, have clothing drives to help those naked, bring relief when someone's house burns or there is a natural diseaster. Buys people's medicine when they can't afford it, pay utility bills and help people whith their rent.

 

 When you atheists quit beating your gums about how bad religion is and offer a viable option, let me know. But again, that would require more than talk, wouldn't it?

 

 

 

Originally Posted by Extra-260:

And what was this thread about?

 

Ohh yes. two points.

 #1. Hitchens is a coward. He says he wants to free Isreal, iran and Saudi arabia from the evil of religion. But he does it quite comfortably here in the west under the freedom of speech won by Christian liberty. Hitchens knows that he wouldn't last 15 minutes in those countries preaching his hateful message. Hitchens loves the fame he gets from his speeches, but he non too soon is willing to suffer or give his life for his belief.

  He has selective memory, completely ignoring the sacrifices of manywho actually do go to that part of the world and try to make a difference. Many like the American girl who was run over by an Isreali bulldozer while protesting the expansion of those settlements he decries.

 

#2.  Hitchens doesn't really believe his own hooey.  I ask you again Deepfat, give me the names of atheist organizations that: provide healthcare to those in need, especially 3rd world countries, provide food to those hungry, have clothing drives to help those naked, bring relief when someone's house burns or there is a natural diseaster. Buys people's medicine when they can't afford it, pay utility bills and help people whith their rent.

 

 When you atheists quit beating your gums about how bad religion is and offer a viable option, let me know. But again, that would require more than talk, wouldn't it?

 

 

 

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Well gee whiz there extra, it's ONLY you christians that go to war for our freedom? Odd then that there are atheists in the military seeing as how it is voluntary now.  I'm an atheist and my money goes to those countries whether or not I choose and agree to it. So you think atheists don't donate money? We don't have the BILLIONS that the churches have, and we don't get the tax breaks that the churches get that helps them amass and keep all those billions, but atheists give plenty to charities.  And someone should have told that girl that when you jump in front of a bulldozer you better make sure the operator can see your dumb ***. You run your mouth right here in this country too. Why aren't you putting your money where YOUR mouth is? Christians don't do one thing more than atheists when it comes to serving this country and helping out charities, and at least we don't sit back with billions in reserve while begging and stealing more money from gullible people, money that never gets to the poor.

. So you think atheists don't donate money? We don't have the BILLIONS that the churches have, and we don't get the tax breaks that the churches get that helps them amass and keep all those billions, but atheists give plenty to charities.

 

 So, where are the atheist "churches" that were created for the purpose of advancing the message of freeing and bettering mankind?

 I do believe atheism has been around since at least Voltare.

 it's amazing, hitchens wants to convert the muslims, but he's just a little too reluctant to actually go there. Lol. What a joke.

 So now, it atheism has been around since Voltare, that means your side has had the same opportunity in the last 230 plus years since the founding of this country, to actually do something to help the experience of man. But alas, all you offer are words.

country and helping out charities, and at least we don't sit back with billions in reserve while begging and stealing more money from gullible people, money that never gets to the poor.

 

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 Oh yes, you cover up your inefficiencies with vague and ungeneralized accusations. Yes, we Christians are stealing all the money, we must be the top 2%. Exactly again, what atheistic charity was started to help the poor? Can you name at least one?

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

But alas, all you offer are words.

 

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And more and more people are hearing those words.  You're hearing them and you're reading them. Why should there be atheist "churches"?

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 Yes indeed, why should there be atheist churches, you have no inclination to do anything but talk.

Oh yes, you cover up your inefficiencies with vague and ungeneralized accusations. Yes, we Christians are stealing all the money, we must be the top 2%. Exactly again, what atheistic charity was started to help the poor? Can you name at least one?

 

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First of all I never said churches were stealing all the money. I said churches in this country are worth BILLIONS. You can't dispute that. That is a fact, not an accusation.  I said atheists pay taxes, churches don't. You can't dispute that.  And if christians really wanted to help the poor they could have already wiped out poverty.  Atheist charities? Google. And if you'd been reading and paying attention you would have seen some charities started by local groups. But you'd rather flap your gums about something you know nothing about.

Yes indeed, why should there be atheist churches, you have no inclination to do anything but talk.

 

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And what are you doing if not "talking"??  Again, why should there be atheist churches? Come on, tell me why there is a need for atheist churches?

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Yes indeed, why should there be atheist churches, you have no inclination to do anything but talk.

 

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And what are you doing if not "talking"??  Again, why should there be atheist churches? Come on, tell me why there is a need for atheist churches?

 

 

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So have you come up with an atheist organization yet? One that is dedicated to feeding the hungry, clothing the naked or advancing the condition of man?

 In other words, one that actually has something other than words to contribute to society?

 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Oh yes, you cover up your inefficiencies with vague and ungeneralized accusations. Yes, we Christians are stealing all the money, we must be the top 2%. Exactly again, what atheistic charity was started to help the poor? Can you name at least one?

 

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First of all I never said churches were stealing all the money. I said churches in this country are worth BILLIONS. You can't dispute that. That is a fact, not an accusation.  I said atheists pay taxes, churches don't. You can't dispute that.  And if christians really wanted to help the poor they could have already wiped out poverty.  Atheist charities? Google. And if you'd been reading and paying attention you would have seen some charities started by local groups. But you'd rather flap your gums about something you know nothing about.

 

 

 Hey girlie, Churches pay taxes on every dollar given out in salaries. If a church gives an offering to someone who needs help, that person is supposed to put that on their taxes, so in theory that money is taxed.  if the m oney goes to over seas mission, the mission is outside of the U.S., you know, just like those mego billionaire corporate wing dings who pay not taxes you defend so much?

 so what's your problem?

 

Hey girlie, Churches pay taxes on every dollar given out in salaries. If a church gives an offering to someone who needs help, that person is supposed to put that on their taxes, so in theory that money is taxed.  if the m oney goes to over seas mission, the mission is outside of the U.S., you know, just like those mego billionaire corporate wing dings who pay not taxes you defend so much?

so what's your problem

 

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One  problem is churches not paying taxes. Have you googled yet or are you still only interested in flapping your gums? Those "corporate wing dings" create jobs. Where would you be without them? Go to one of your nasty ows thugs and see if they have ever given anyone a job.

Originally Posted by Extra-260:
.  I ask you again Deepfat, give me the names of atheist organizations that: provide healthcare to those in need, especially 3rd world countries, provide food to those hungry, have clothing drives to help those naked, bring relief when someone's house burns or there is a natural diseaster. Buys people's medicine when they can't afford it, pay utility bills and help people whith their rent.

 

 

 

There are thousands of charitable organizations that have no religious affiliation.  Google is your friend.  ©

Definition of atheist- someone with no belief in gods.

 

How or why would there be churches?

 

Since atheist are not a group based on a doctrine or dogma then there would not be much to do in a church of atheist.

 

Here are a list of atheist, non-theist, secular charities...please give to one of your choice.

http://www.thinkatheist.com/notes/Secular_charities

 

Also look into our local Humanists group. We give to charities on a regular basis. We are having a food and coat drive right now. Would you like to donate?

 

Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
Originally Posted by Extra-260:
.  I ask you again Deepfat, give me the names of atheist organizations that: provide healthcare to those in need, especially 3rd world countries, provide food to those hungry, have clothing drives to help those naked, bring relief when someone's house burns or there is a natural diseaster. Buys people's medicine when they can't afford it, pay utility bills and help people whith their rent.

 

 

 

There are thousands of charitable organizations that have no religious affiliation.  Google is your friend.  ©

 

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 That won't do Crusty. many charities don't make religion an issue to make sure they have widespread support.

 This discussion is about what does atheism offer humanity. As we have now established, atheism does not feed the hungry, cloth the naked, provide healthcare for those in need, it doesn't provide medicine for the sick or a roof for the homeless.

 

 Now, after 230 years at least of existence, whewre is your atheist based charity organization?

 

Here are a list of atheist, non-theist, secular charities...please give to one of your choice.

http://www.thinkatheist.com/notes/Secular_charities

 

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 Amazing, you people extoll the virtues of atheism, but when challenged on your deeds, you want to rifde the coattails of people who are not necessarily atheist. The organizations on your list are SECULAR, that means that they make no position for or against religion. You people are atheists, are you not smart enough to know the difference?

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Hey girlie, Churches pay taxes on every dollar given out in salaries. If a church gives an offering to someone who needs help, that person is supposed to put that on their taxes, so in theory that money is taxed.  if the m oney goes to over seas mission, the mission is outside of the U.S., you know, just like those mego billionaire corporate wing dings who pay not taxes you defend so much?

so what's your problem

 

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One  problem is churches not paying taxes. Have you googled yet or are you still only interested in flapping your gums? Those "corporate wing dings" create jobs. Where would you be without them? Go to one of your nasty ows thugs and see if they have ever given anyone a job.

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 those corporate wing dings do create jobs....... in china, mexico, and bangladesh ect. ect.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Hey girlie, Churches pay taxes on every dollar given out in salaries. If a church gives an offering to someone who needs help, that person is supposed to put that on their taxes, so in theory that money is taxed.  if the m oney goes to over seas mission, the mission is outside of the U.S., you know, just like those mego billionaire corporate wing dings who pay not taxes you defend so much?

so what's your problem

 

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One  problem is churches not paying taxes. Have you googled yet or are you still only interested in flapping your gums? Those "corporate wing dings" create jobs. Where would you be without them? Go to one of your nasty ows thugs and see if they have ever given anyone a job.

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 So you just as mad at corporations who don't pay taxes?

Originally Posted by Extra-260:

Since atheist are not a group based on a doctrine or dogma then there would not be much to do in a church of atheist.

 

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 Thank you Dark Angel, I couldn't have said it better myself. Atheism offers humanity nothing.

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Why would you break up my response into 3 different replies? Are you after some sort of post quota? 

 

Are you seriously saying that without dogma or doctrine or a belief in the supernatural there is nothing for humanity? That is a pretty narrow and pathetic view on life and humanity. 

 

Atheist do all sorts of charitable works. We are caring and giving people. Some are not. Just like the rest of humanity. Some are selfish, mean and hateful people. Just like many Christians I know. There are specific groups or orgs that have charitable goals that are strictly atheist. Humanism is that sort. Look into it. As I said to you before, and you chose to ignore that part of my post, the local Humanist group is involved in many charities through out the year. Right now we are having a food and coat drive. We are all atheist. Here is a fun fact for you. All Humanist are atheist, but not all atheist are Humanist. Which means that atheist do not have to be any certain type of person. They do not always belong to charitable groups such as Humanism. 

 

The list of charities i gave you are all secular. They are doing good and charitable things without religion or gods. That is atheism at its finest. 

 

As for how long there have been atheist. I would say since the beginning of man. 

 

The only possible argument you can make out of all this is that somehow charities would not exist if there were no religion, which I don't see as quite rational. Do atheist have the ability and initiative to form charities? They do, as shown. Maybe not majority of the charities, because majority of the charities have been founded by the religious folks who were (and are) the majority at the time of their foundation, but even in their few numbers, atheist seem to deal with charities just as well. 

 

Atheism by itself is simply no belief in gods. Atheists on the other hand are just normal people. They give to charities, they feed the hungry, they clothe the poor. If religion had never existed we would still have hospitals, and charity orgs. 

 

Also look into the Gates Foundation.

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