Hi to my Forum Friends,
In another discussion I began titled "LGBT Groups Call For Boycott Of Salvation Army's Red Kettles" -- I asked several questions of my Christian Forum Friend, O No, and would like to take a moment to discuss her answers:
First, I asked, "Do you agree that we as Christians should believe and teach the same way (i.e., thing) that God teaches?"
And, she replied, "Bill, the way that God teaches is both through the Bible, and through the Holy Spirit. I believe in God's teachings, but I feel that I can only apply those teachings to myself. While you are concentrating on the passages about homosexuality, I am concentrating on the passages that tell us not to judge. The Bible is there for anyone to read, and the Holy Spirit doesn't need my help, so I don't feel the need to teach anyone unless they ask for my advice."
Let me begin by saying that, to truly understand God's Word, we must look at the entire Bible. There are no passages only for Bill Gray regarding homosexuality -- and other passages only for O No which teach "do not judge." To have a balanced theology, a balanced understanding of God's Word -- we must take into account the entire Bible. Where the Bible agrees, we teach. Where the Bible contradicts, we must look for additional clarification and understanding.
True, God the Father and the Holy Spirit do not need our help to teach, or to do anything in this world. Yet, for Their own reasons, They have chosen to use our "feet on the street" to do many things They could do with only a spoken word. Why? Well, I suppose it is like the way we teach our children -- by letting them do tasks we could do much more efficiently. But, we ask them to do these tasks so that they might grow more mature.
When my children were young teens, each had cho-r-e-s to do every week. One cho-r-e for my daughter was to wash and dry the cloths -- a task I could have done if a few hours, yet, it took her all weekend because of procrastination. Yes, it would have been easier to just do it myself -- but, that would not have helped her to grow into the responsible woman she is today. God teaches us in the same way -- by allowing us to do, in our human ways, what He could do in one divine moment.
My Friend, you say, "I am concentrating on the passages that tell us not to judge."
Yet, what does the Bible really say about judging? Rather than rely upon what I believe, let's look at what at what the folks at God Questions Ministries have to say on the subject. But, first, who is Got Questions Ministries?
Mission Statement of Got Questions Ministries: Got Questions Ministries seeks to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ by providing biblical, applicable, and timely answers to spiritually related questions through an internet presence. GotQuestions.org is a volunteer ministry of dedicated and trained servants who have a desire to assist others in their understanding of God, Scripture, salvation, and other spiritual topics. We will do our best to prayerfully and thoroughly research your question and answer it in a biblically-based manner. It is not our purpose to make you agree with us, but rather to point you to what the Bible says concerning your question. All of our answers are reviewed for biblical and theological accuracy by our staff. May God richly bless you as you seek to study His Word and grow in your walk with Him! (Romans 11:36).
Their web site is found at: http://www.gotquestions.org
Looking on the Got Questions Ministries web site, we find:
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What Does The Bible Mean That We Are Not to Judge Others?
http://www.gotquestions.org/do-not-judge.html
Question: "What does the Bible mean that we are not to judge others?"
Answer: This is an issue that has confused many people. On one hand, we are commanded by the Lord Jesus, “Do not judge, or you too will be judged” (Matthew 7:1). On the other hand, the Bible also exhorts us to beware of evildoers and false prophets and to avoid those who practice all kinds of evil. How are we to discern who these people are if we do not make some kind of judgment about them?
Christians are often accused of "judging" whenever they speak out against a sinful activity. However, that is not the meaning of the Scripture verses that state, "Do not judge."
There is a righteous kind of judgment we are supposed to exercise -- with careful discernment (John 7:24). When Jesus told us not to judge (Matthew 7:1), He was telling us not to judge hypocritically. Matthew 7:2-5 declares, "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." What Jesus was condemning here was hypocritical, self-righteous judgments of others.
Bill Gray comment: This tells me that if a person is a closet thief, adulterer, liar, or even homosexual -- how can this person tell another he/she is wrong for doing this act -- if the accuser is doing the same? This is the hypocritical judging Jesus tells us to avoid.
In Matthew 7:2-5, Jesus warns against judging someone else for his sin when you yourself are sinning even worse. That is the kind of judging Jesus commanded us not to do. (However) if a believer sees another believer sinning, it is his Christian duty to lovingly and respectfully confront the person with his sin (Matthew 18:15-17).
This is not judging, but rather pointing out the truth in hope -- and with the ultimate goal -- of bringing repentance in the other person (James 5:20) and restoration to the fellowship. We are to speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15). We are to proclaim what God's Word says about sin. 2 Timothy 4:2 instructs us, "Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage -- with great patience and careful instruction." We are to "judge" sin -- but always with the goal of presenting the solution for sin and its consequences -- the Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:6).
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Second, I asked O No, "Based upon that, should Christians accept the homosexual lifestyle as an acceptable, alternate lifestyle?"
And, O No responds, "I wouldn't so much say that ANY lifestyle is to be accepted or NOT accepted. It is not my place to accept ANYONE'S lifestyle. I mean, who am I to tell anyone else how to live? All I can do is give advice or an opinion IF ASKED. Anything beyond that is putting my nose in someone else's business, and that's not where it belongs. The way I see it, God will deal with each person's lifestyle choices, whether they be homosexual, drug addicts, television addicts, or whatever else."
What does the Bible say about the homosexual lifestyle?
It is an abomination (Leviticus 18:22); it is a detestable act (Leviticus 20:13); it is a degrading passion (Romans 1:26); it is unnatural (Romans 1:26); it is committing indecent acts (Romans 1:27); it is contrary to sound teaching (1 Timothy 1:10); and, those who live this lifestyle are unrighteous and will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).
God said it! Which part of these Scripture verses can you or I say is wrong? So, how can we say that the homosexual lifestyle is not displeasing to God? And, if it it is displeasing to God, should not Christians be trying to bring our erring Friends, who are in this lifestyle, into the Light of God's Word?
Third, I asked O No,"And, based upon that, should Christian churches allow homosexuals to be pastors, bishops, and leaders within their Christian church family?"
My Friend, O No, tells me, "The third question, I believe I dealt with in my previous post. Whether a pastor or other church leader is a homosexual or if he sins in another way, we are all sinners, and I believe it is what is in our hearts that matter. I knew a man once who had a VERY foul mouth. He grew up around parents whose language was, shall we say 'colorful' -- and then he joined the Navy. He could barely speak without several of those words coming out. . .
So you could say that foul language was part of HIS lifestyle. Does that mean he WASN'T a Christian? NO! He loved the Lord with all his heart and prayed for forgiveness every day. It is my belief that he GOT that forgiveness. And it is my belief that if a homosexual loves the Lord but can't seem to change his lifestyle, God will judge him on what is in his heart. So, yeah, if a homosexual feels the call to become a pastor, that's OK with me."
Briefly, let me state that while I am certain that profane language is not pleasing to God -- He has not declared, in the Bible, that it is an abomination, a detestable act, a degrading passion, or unnatural -- as He has homosexuality.
O No, based upon the underlined portion of your answer above, it is clear that you believe it is okay for a pastor, elder, bishop, etc., of a Christian church to be living an active homosexual lifestyle -- and still teaching God's Word. Let's talk about that.
A church leader, be he pastor, elder, or a bishop, has the task of teaching the full Written Word of God. How can this person teach the full Word of God if he has to skip portions of the Bible which condemns his chosen lifestyle? Can he teach, "God and the Bible teach that this lifestyle if wrong for you -- but, it is okay for me"? No, he cannot. The teachings of the Bible apply equally to all believers. As a matter of fact, we might say that they apply even more to the one who is shepherding the flock -- for it is he, the pastor/teacher/leader, who has been chosen to be the role model for the flock.
No, a person cannot teach the Word of God -- if he is living an active lifestyle which spits in the face of God.
Regarding your Friend who frequently used profane language; that is a different story. You imply that this man could not stop himself from using profanities. Personally, I believe he could, if not stop the profanity -- greatly curtail his profanities.
Before I was a Christian, I, too, was rather adept at using what you call "colorful language." When my wife and I married, our children (technically my step-children) were in their young teen years. And, I recall an incident in the early days of our marriage when, during dinner, I used the "S" word. Lana, our daughter, told me in very firm words, "We don't talk like that in this house!" Out of the mouth of babes! But, I got her point.
Once I became a Christian believer "colorful language" and off-color humor had to be curtailed. And, that is what is meant in 2 Corinthians 5:17 (NLT), "This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!" Here, I have used the paraphrase NLT version for it states the intent very clearly -- when we become a child of God, we are transformed, we are a new person. Part of working toward maturity in Christ is to work toward controlling those worldly urges, desires, and habits which were second nature to us before.
Was I able to accomplish this immediately? No. For the most part, I did curtail it. But, like your Friend, there are still times of great frustration, or times I bang my finger with a hammer -- when, I will let slip a word or phrase which is not appropriate.
And, I recall once, in the early years of my Christian walk, I entered a man's office and laying on his desk was an object which in earlier years would have produced an inappropriate joke. My immediate response to was to tell the joke -- but, then I caught myself and refrained. It can be done. And, the longer we walk with the Lord, the easier it becomes.
Fourth, I asked O No, "How would you apply Jesus' admonition in Matthew 28:19-20 (go, make disciples, baptize, teach) and Acts 1:8 and Mark 16:15 (be My witnesses) to that situation?"
O No answers, "As for Jesus' instructions to go teach and baptize, he was talking to the apostles. And they did exactly as He instructed them so that by now, the whole world, or just about, has heard about Him. I believe that was just the first step in bringing God's children home to Him. But I think it would be silly to just keep taking that FIRST step over and over again. Now that that step has been taken, it is our job to CONTINUE the journey, by loving one another, helping the poor and the sick and the old, and being a good influence on children and the lost."
In that last teaching with His apostles in Matthew 28, was Jesus giving only to them what we call the Great Commission -- or was He, while directly speaking to them -- also addressing all Christian believers down through the ages? Personally, I believe all of His teachings and admonitions, throughout the Bible, were addressed to all believers, including us today.
But, once again, let me yield the floor to the answer given in GotQuestions.Org, for their answer is very complete:
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What is the Great Commission?
http://www.gotquestions.org/great-commission.html
Question: "What is the Great Commission?"
Answer: Matthew 28:19-20 contains what has come to be called the Great Commission: “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Jesus gave this command to the apostles shortly before He ascended into heaven, and it essentially outlines what Jesus expected the apostles, and those who followed them, to do in His absence.
It is interesting that in the original Greek, the only specific command in Matthew 28:19-20 is “make disciples.” The Great Commission instructs us to make disciples while we are going throughout the world and while we are going about our daily activities. How are we to make disciples? By baptizing them and teaching them all that Jesus commanded. “Make disciples” is the command of the Great Commission. “As you are going,” “baptizing,” and “teaching” are the means by which we fulfill the command to “make disciples.”
Many understand Acts 1:8 as part of the Great Commission as well, “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” The Great Commission is enabled by the power of the Holy Spirit. We are to be Christ's witnesses, fulfilling the Great Commission in our cities (Jerusalem), in our states and countries (Judea and Samaria), and anywhere else God sends us (to the ends of the earth).
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O No, you tell me, ". . . it is our job to CONTINUE the journey, by loving one another, helping the poor and the sick and the old, and being a good influence on children and the lost."
Apparently, you see this as the end goal of your Christian walk. I see this as the fruit of my Christian walk -- as I Go, Make Disciples, Baptize, Teach -- as I walk with Christ "as His witness to all the world." While sharing His Gospel, I am to also be helping the poor, the sick, the old, the children, the lost -- and loving them all. But, my love must be shown in pointing them toward a life in Christ. If we do not point them toward a life in Christ -- regardless of how much we love them, feed them, care for their physical needs -- we have failed them, and our God.
My Friend, do you see the difference? What you see as the final goal of your Christian walk -- I believe Christ sees as only the collateral fruit of our walk -- as we continue the Great Commission journey He has set before us to bring more people to life in and with God.
The fruit you strive to express -- loving, caring for, providing for -- should be the effect of your sharing the Word of God, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, with all you meet in your daily walk as a Christian believer. It should not be the end goal of your Christian walk; but, only a sign, a manifestation, a revealing of your Christian life -- as you, in Christian love, share your Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, with those you meet.
Finally, O No, you tell me, "But mainly, for myself, I think MY job is to put my life and all of my actions into His hands so that I can be ready to do His will at the drop of a hat, no matter what His will is, and no matter where it takes me."
That is so true. But, are you really doing His will -- if you are not actively making disciples, actively pointing people toward a life in Christ? Are you really doing His will -- if you see a person living a lifestyle which you know God condemns -- and, you just turn your back and walk away? Or, if you just meekly view his/her condemned lifestyle as acceptable -- and declare that you will leave this person to God?
Have you ever wondered if God did not bring this opportunity, this person, to you -- because He wants you to "be His witness" to this person? Do you really believe you are doing His will if you do not at least make an attempt to share the Word of God with this person?
Before you became a Christian believer, the seed of salvation had been sown for you, pointing you toward Jesus Christ. Are you really doing God's will now -- if you do not actively sow seeds to point others toward Him?
O No, you tell me, "All I can do is give advice or an opinion IF ASKED." What is this person never asks?
My Friend, I would never call you a "couch potato" Christian. However, the method of witnessing you suggest, i.e., "I will just wait here and if anyone wants to ask me, I will tell them about my Lord" -- would tend to suggest a "couch potato" approach to being His witness.
But, regardless of how we each choose to be His witness, you are my Christian sister and I thank God for you.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill