well.....

Well, Nagel,

Like you, I would like to see less atheistic rhetoric. However, the TD Mods did name this the Religion Forum. I suggested "Faith Forum" or "Faith and Family Forum" -- but, I guess the TD folks want to be more inclusive.

And, we must acknowledge that atheism and secularism are religions, i.e., they are belief systems, which is the definition of a religion.

Of course, they will say they have an unbelief system -- but, that unbelief is still a belief. So, paint the horse whatever color you like; it is still a horse.

Yet, in my view, the atheists and secularist are less dangerous than those who post cult religion and New Age religion teachings. The atheists and secularist just declare their belief that there is no God. Okay, that is pretty much black and white and easy to refute. No one is easily lured into their religions. Either one has a mindset to go in that direction -- or one does not. So, they pose less of a threat to new believers and new seekers than those who cloak themselves in Christian and Biblical words -- just to hide their cultic or New Age agendas.

We find the cult religions such as Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Universalist Unitarians, etc., and the New Agers will plagiarize the Bible, using large portions to make their teachings sound Biblical. In other words, they will use just enough true Bible teaching to lure the unsuspecting into their trap -- then, they spring their very unBiblical teachings which are polar opposites of the Christian Bible's teachings. These are the folks who are most dangerous.

And, we have our Roman Catholic Friends, many of whom are Christians. Yet, they insist upon bringing unBiblical Roman Catholic doctrines and traditions into the discussions and we who follow the Bible will continue to refute those traditions and doctrines.

Yet, all of these folks have a religion and therefore have a right to post on the Religion Forum. This is why it is important that conservative, Biblical Christians be here to refute any teachings which are not Biblical.

To be quite honest with you, while I fully disagree with our atheist and secularist Friends -- they have been more civil in our discussions than many who wear the Christian hats. I have been called more derogatory and nasty names by Liberal Christians and Roman Catholics -- than I ever have by atheists, secularists, and other non-believers. What does this say about our Christian fellowship? It is one thing to agree to disagree -- but, we should not let it divide us -- and, it should NEVER lead to name calling and defamation.

So, Nagel, although I would not say it quite like you did -- we must make sure to raise a red flag over all the atheist, secularist, cultic, New Age, and other unBiblical teachings.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

And, we have our Roman Catholic Friends, many of whom are Christians. Yet, they insist upon bringing unBiblical Roman Catholic doctrines and traditions into the discussions and we who follow the Bible will continue to refute those traditions and doctrines.

Yet, all of these folks have a religion and therefore have a right to post on the Religion Forum. This is why it is important that conservative, Biblical Christians be here to refute any teachings which are not Biblical.

Traditions that the Catholic church recognize are Biblical. So bill, your saying

St. Paul is a lier. Has he been lying about anything else?

Interesting thenagel, you think you've been here longer than nsns?

If you don't count re-incarnation, he has!


Bill, you have been called worse by the atheists, trust me.

I have called you a bumbling old fashioned fundy with delusions of God-hood, but see, that's just an opinion.

The atheists call everyone stupid, you argue with Christians over how to be one and accuse other denominations of being cults.

We can ignore the atheists as not being worth the trouble, you cause a problem in faith.

That's why you get so many comments.

PS: Nagel, keep on watching.

quote:

Originally posted by CrustyMac:
Interesting thenagel, you think you've been here longer than nsns?

My thoughts exactly.

quote:

And, we must acknowledge that atheism and secularism are religions, i.e., they are belief systems, which is the definition of a religion.

And once more I ask you bill, what "religious" beliefs do atheists hold? I notice you can offer up your opinion on everything else, but for some reason you can't answer that question. As far as people posting here, I didn't read anywhere that only certain people were allowed to post on subjects. If you want that, get off a PUBLIC forum and create your own.

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:

now, if you're done, we'd like to go back to making fun of Fundies like bill, and trying to find some reasonable middle ground where we can converse without insulting each other.

we were doing just fine with that without you.

we'll continue doing just fine once you're gone.

So let me get this straight. You see no problem with making fun of "fundies" such as BG but NSNS or Unobtanium can't voice their opinions on how they feel about ALL religion.

Only Bill's views are open to ridicule and suspicion.

I disagree. I find it odd that you think we atheist should see your belief in a god and bill's belief in a god as different. He may have a different approach than you do, but in the eyes of us atheist you are just different sides of the same coin.

I see where b50m says:"Bill, you have been called worse by the atheists, trust me.

I have called you a bumbling old fashioned fundy with delusions of God-hood, but see, that's just an opinion. "

Let's just replace a few words and see how this would sound coming from an atheist.

"I have called you a bumbling backwards christian with delusions of a god."

Is that just an opinion or is that the kind of stuff we atheist aren't allowed to say on here?

Its a free country with free speech, if you don't like what some one is saying then you have the freedom to speak up or ignore. You don't have the authority or the right to say others can't have that same say in things.

I will advice you to "grow up" and stop acting like someone beat your dog. Its a forum with many different views there is no way for this many different views and opinion to all get along. If you believe that then you are more gullible than the average christian. That is just an opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Jankinonya:

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:

now, if you're done, we'd like to go back to making fun of Fundies like bill, and trying to find some reasonable middle ground where we can converse without insulting each other.

we were doing just fine with that without you.

we'll continue doing just fine once you're gone.

So let me get this straight. You see no problem with making fun of "fundies" such as BG but NSNS or Unobtanium can't voice their opinions on how they feel about ALL religion.

Only Bill's views are open to ridicule and suspicion.

I disagree. I find it odd that you think we atheist should see your belief in a god and bill's belief in a god as different. He may have a different approach than you do, but in the eyes of us atheist you are just different sides of the same coin.

I see where b50m says:"Bill, you have been called worse by the atheists, trust me.

I have called you a bumbling old fashioned fundy with delusions of God-hood, but see, that's just an opinion. "

Let's just replace a few words and see how this would sound coming from an atheist.

"I have called you a bumbling backwards christian with delusions of a god."

Is that just an opinion or is that the kind of stuff we atheist aren't allowed to say on here?

Its a free country with free speech, if you don't like what some one is saying then you have the freedom to speak up or ignore. You don't have the authority or the right to say others can't have that same say in things.

I will advice you to "grow up" and stop acting like someone beat your dog. Its a forum with many different views there is no way for this many different views and opinion to all get along. If you believe that then you are more gullible than the average christian. That is just an opinion.

HAHA Jank dear,

You, bj and nsns deserve nagle.

Y’all have molycoddled him all this time and you are stuck with him. Y’all hugg him up tight. LOL He's one of y'all. We don't want'em lol

quote:

i mean, don't they have anything better to do that to start petty schoolyard squabbles?

pot, kettle, black.

really, angel, i have come to expect more of you. turns out, your just one stich away from being a billfer.

i come here because i fnd the discussion interesting. i suppose you do too.

i also give a darn about the concept of truth. in fact, im rather passionate about the subject. coming on this silly little forum allows me to examine all sides of this "god" issue and learn wasy of responding to those who can't seem to handle the truth. i;m not trying to "make sure I'm right." im here to make sure my arguments are sound.

people like you are some of the most interesting,. you seem to agree with the atheists on almost everything except the concept of "god" yet you call yourself a christian. don't get me wrong, i see nothing wrong with that, i just find it odd that you will openly criticizes the atheists out of one corner of your mouth while agreeing with them for the most part.

Uno, please capitalize.

You seem to have the same contempt for education as does nagel.

quote:

Originally posted by CrustyMac:
Interesting thenagel, you think you've been here longer than nsns?

when i got here, he wasn't here.

now he is here, and the friendly we used to have is rapidly going down the toilet.

that's all i know.

he might have been here for years, but he wasn't here whe ni first showed up.. or i wouldn't have stayed.
i was tired of high school quality drama whe ni was IN high school, i certainly have no desire to go back there.

quote:

Originally posted by Unobtanium:

quote:

i mean, don't they have anything better to do that to start petty schoolyard squabbles?

pot, kettle, black.

really, angel, i have come to expect more of you. turns out, your just one stich away from being a billfer.

i come here because i fnd the discussion interesting. i suppose you do too.

i also give a darn about the concept of truth. in fact, im rather passionate about the subject. coming on this silly little forum allows me to examine all sides of this "god" issue and learn wasy of responding to those who can't seem to handle the truth. i;m not trying to "make sure I'm right." im here to make sure my arguments are sound.

people like you are some of the most interesting,. you seem to agree with the atheists on almost everything except the concept of "god" yet you call yourself a christian. don't get me wrong, i see nothing wrong with that, i just find it odd that you will openly criticizes the atheists out of one corner of your mouth while agreeing with them for the most part.

and i guess the whole point was missed.

i'm not critizing the athiests for their beliefs ( or lack thereof )

i haven't.
i disagree with them, obviously, but i havent' critisized.
and there's the difference.

once upon a time, me, veep, b50m, billy joe, jank, road puppy.. others... we'd talk about stuff. some one would bring up an issue.. we'd answer.
if there was further things on that topic that a reply brought up, we'd converse.. discuss... share ideas.
often we'd say things like ' well, obviously i disagree with that idea, but here's another way to look at it that you might find worth of thinking about"

but now, NSNS all but says the words 'if you believe in god, you can't possibly be any thing more than a self deluded moron, and i dont' know how you ever figured out how to turn on the computer."

and now, just me trying to get my point out on the issue has made jank hate me. i think she thought i was refering to her a few days ago when i first hinted at this subject.
i wasn't.

we used to talk abotu interesting things. we used to go out of our way to find common ground.

now everyone is just petty and mean, so much so that when i try to point it out it makes ME sound petty and mean.

personally, i don't see how anyone with a good quality working rational mind can look around them, look at this world, this galaxy this universe and not see tha tsimply, well, yes, of course there is a god.
for so many things to mesh so perfectly.... for some many things to HAVE to fit so exactly together or the whole doesn't work at all...
..all just a cosmic blunder? a circumstantial happenstance?
but at no point have i ever said anything even remotly like that in insulting tones to any athiest on this forum.

but, i get jumped on by several people when i point out that i don't like it that some athiests in here take exactly that insulting tone with believers.

and yet, i'm the pot/kettle.

/whatever.

also -

no, i don't call myself a christian.

and its Nagel... not Angel...
it's from a short story i read once.

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:

quote:

Originally posted by CrustyMac:
Interesting thenagel, you think you've been here longer than nsns?

when i got here, he wasn't here.

now he is here, and the friendly we used to have is rapidly going down the toilet.

that's all i know.

he might have been here for years, but he wasn't here whe ni first showed up.. or i wouldn't have stayed.
i was tired of high school quality drama whe ni was IN high school, i certainly have no desire to go back there.

NSNS is just giving his opinion, nagel, like you give yours. The debates are usually passionate and quite often redundant, which is why I don't drop in the Religion section very often, but he feels as strongly about the absence of God as you feel about the presence of God.

You argue your points pretty fervently don't you? Why can't he?

I'm Christian. I've been fighting to maintain my beliefs lately, but still consider myself a "believer", and I don't see these as "high school" discussions. I'm open to others' opinions and any proof they have to offer that what I believe is wrong.

It's sometimes an unpleasant thing to do, but I feel like you've got to be willing to challenge what you believe to really believe it in the end. Does that make sense?

quote:

Originally posted by Jankinonya:

So let me get this straight. You see no problem with making fun of "fundies" such as BG but NSNS or Unobtanium can't voice their opinions on how they feel about ALL religion.

so much for humor.

no, of course i don't mean that.
but it isn't necessary to insult and belittle people that do believe when expressing their beliefs is it?

why be rude when it isn't necessary.

we all got along just fine a few months ago.

we were polite.

and now that NSNS has returned the need for common courtesy went the way of the dodo, i guess.

which is one of the main things i have against bill. not necessarily what he says, but how he says it.

quote:

Originally posted by Buttercup:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by thenagel:

NSNS is just giving his opinion, nagel, like you give yours. The debates are usually passionate and quite often redundant, which is why I don't drop in the Religion section very often, but he feels as strongly about the absence of God as you feel about the presence of God.

yes, but i haven't been insulting him and unobtainium.
well, not until recently

i came here for interesting discussions.
i stayed because people were nice and friendly and it was fun.
lately it's neither nice nor friendly nor fun.

i'm juts trying to point it out, to see if it's possible to go back there.

just because people disagree, even on fundemental issues doesn't mean it's necessary to sling mud and put down others beliefs.

Nagel,
It goes back to the old double standard. 'True Christians', according to the atheist club, must take all the insults, snide remarks, derogatory language, defaming cartoons, and purpose misspelling of any religious terms with out a peep. We must behave as the sheeple we are accused of being.

If we decide to point out that those things are very hurtful, then we are not being 'accepting' enough. Case in point was the post I put up a few weeks ago that had all the atheists 'panties in a wad'. The author insulted them as a whole and it was not considered to be a nice thing for me to do. I was attacked from all sides.

Sometimes, even a 'good Christian' has reached a limit. And I'm not even a good one. Some times the sheep bite the shepard.

quote:

Originally posted by b50m:
Nagel,
It goes back to the old double standard. 'True Christians', according to the atheist club, must take all the insults, snide remarks, derogatory language, defaming cartoons, and purpose misspelling of any religious terms with out a peep. We must behave as the sheeple we are accused of being.

If we decide to point out that those things are very hurtful, then we are not being 'accepting' enough. Case in point was the post I put up a few weeks ago that had all the atheists 'panties in a wad'. The author insulted them as a whole and it was not considered to be a nice thing for me to do. I was attacked from all sides.

Sometimes, even a 'good Christian' has reached a limit. And I'm not even a good one. Some times the sheep bite the shepard.

Hallelujah b50m you told it like it is gierfrean.

The atheist candidates are smellin’ tails to see who has the pie.

Circling everyone stiff legged growling and bristled up and showin’ teeth waitin’ on the righteous to cower down , tail between the legs and slink off.

When their owner (God) shows up with the dog-catcher they run for the hills. They have no tag showing they have ever been noccalated by God.

Keep in mind that most if nor all of us atheists werwonw believers. We cwrtunly feel tour pain.

That said, exactly how mug awe we allowed to disagree over the existance of your invisible auperman?

Stupid" smart"phones suck for foruming.

quote:

Originally posted by Unobtanium:
Keep in mind that most if nor all of us atheists werwonw believers. We cwrtunly feel tour pain.

That said, exactly how mug awe we allowed to disagree over the existance of your invisible auperman?

hahahahahaha shall I translate that for you?

I am going to give it whack because I think its worth making clear.

"Keep in mind that most if not all of us atheist were once believers. We certainly feel your pain.

That said, exactly how much are we allowed to disagree over the existence of your invisible superman?"

I have been wondering the same thing myself.

Are all of y'all Religion forum "regulars" that thin-skinned? I'm surprised at this.

If you don't like what the atheists have to say, and how they say it, stop whining and fight back! Offer better evidence (that proves whatever point). Give them facts. Convince them (and the rest of us)!

If they're calling names, let them. If the evidence is on your side, why are you so worried about their presentation?

Now, (both sides) I want you to shake hands and have a good, clean fight! Carry on.

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war...

quote:

Originally posted by Unobtanium:
Stupid" smart"phones suck for foruming.

UNO,

Remember the pencil sharpener in which you put your head?

Put your fingers in the sharpener.

quote:

Originally posted by Kraven:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
And, we have our Roman Catholic Friends, many of whom are Christians. Yet, they insist upon bringing unBiblical Roman Catholic doctrines and traditions into the discussions and we who follow the Bible will continue to refute those traditions and doctrines. Yet, all of these folks have a religion and therefore have a right to post on the Religion Forum. This is why it is important that conservative, Biblical Christians be here to refute any teachings which are not Biblical.

Traditions that the Catholic church recognize are Biblical. So bill, your saying St. Paul is a lier (sic). Has he been lying about anything else?

Hi Kraven,

No, Paul was not a liar. However, he never recognized traditions as being Biblical. What did Paul say about traditions?

2 Thessalonians 2:15, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us."

If I send you an e-mail explaining some aspect of God's Word -- or you attend a Bible study where I am teaching Scripture -- should that be considered "tradition" in the Roman Catholic sense; should this teaching become church doctrine? No, in both cases.

1 Corinthians 11:2, "Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you."

What "traditions" did Paul deliver? As we are told in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 -- teachings by word of mouth (Bible study) or by written letter (Paul's version of our e-mails). Once again, current teachings of that day -- not "traditions" in the Roman Catholic sense.

When these "traditions" become Pharisaical type "laws" -- then, Paul denounces them; as we see in Colossians 2:8, "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ."

Galatians 1:14, "And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen, being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions." Before Jesus Christ called Saul/Paul to be His servant, His worker -- Paul was a good Pharisee, using those Pharisaical laws to persecute Christian believers.

God gave Moses the Ten Commandments and the Laws which expanded upon those commandments. Then, the Pharisees and Scribes created additional laws to give themselves power over the people. This is what Paul is condemning.

What did Jesus Christ have to say about traditions? In Mark 7:5-7, we read, "Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, 'Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?' He answered and said to them, 'Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: "This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."'"

And, these "traditions" and "laws" from the Pharisees which Paul and Jesus Christ condemned -- are foreshadows of the "traditions" and "dogmas" that have come from the Vatican all these years -- man-made traditions which take precedence in the Roman Catholic church over the Word of God.

Kraven, you tell me, "Traditions that the Catholic church recognize are Biblical."

And, the Mormons will tell us that their Book of Mormons is but an extension of the Bible; and Jehovah's Witnesses will tell us that their bible, the New World Translation of the Holy Scripture, is the real Bible -- yet, they have removed or modified all verses which declare the deity of Jesus Christ, i.e., John 1:1, John 8:58, etc. Al Williams tells us his New Age Urantia Book bible is the true Bible; yet, it plagiarizes a large portion of Scripture -- then, adds their extraterrestrial New Age teachings on top of Scripture.

Yes, the Roman Catholic church will tell us that their traditions and doctrines are Biblical. But, the only way they can even partially prove any of it is to omit other large portions of Scripture. If the Roman Catholic church used the full Bible, without the apocrypha which they added to support these false teachings -- you will find that virtually all of these traditions and dogmas are contradicted in the Bible, making them nonBiblical.

In the days of Paul, the New Testament was not yet written and canonized. So, the teachings were oral, i.e., Bible studies -- and written letters of explanation to churches in other areas. Many of these teachings and writings did eventually become part of the canonized Bible. Before we had the Bible, God brought prophets and, in the New Testament, He brought apostles and teachers. Once He had given us the Bible -- there was no longer any need for prophets and apostles.

And, we know from Acts 1:21-22 that an apostle was one who had walked with Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry. The only exception being Paul, whom Jesus personally chose to be the twelfth apostle after Judas eliminated himself. So, unless a man is 2000 years old -- there is no way he can be an apostle of Jesus Christ.

Today, the Holy Spirit inspired, inerrant, literal Written Word of God, the Bible -- is God's full revelation to mankind pointing toward salvation and guiding our Christian walk -- making prophets and apostles unnecessary in today's church.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Buttercup:
Are all of y'all Religion forum "regulars" that thin-skinned? I'm surprised at this.

If you don't like what the atheists have to say, and how they say it, stop whining and fight back! Offer better evidence (that proves whatever point). Give them facts. Convince them (and the rest of us)!

If they're calling names, let them. If the evidence is on your side, why are you so worried about their presentation?

Now, (both sides) I want you to shake hands and have a good, clean fight! Carry on.

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war...

That is what I am screaming! LOL Since when is it so gawd awful for us to speak our minds?

Buffalo does it all the time. He picks on the atheist like its his job. I personally think he is sweet on me and that is why I get it the most.

I like NSNS and Unobtanium's frankness. Just like I enjoy Buffy's.

I would not change a thing. How boring would it be if we just got along.

quote:

If you don't like what the atheists have to say, and how they say it, stop whining and fight back! Offer better evidence (that proves whatever point). Give them facts. Convince them (and the rest of us)!

Their "evidence"? Cause they say so. And Bill, about the fourth time now, give me a list of an atheists "religious" beliefs.

Great advice butter, only when we 'fight back' we are hit with not being a good "Christian".

To an atheist, all the ills of the world are based on religion. Evidence to the contrary is treated as not substantial.

When bad things happen, atheists jump on the bad wagon and say 'See, God doesn't exist
, He is a fraud.'

When good things happen, it just good luck, God had nothing to do with it.

Amazing how He can appear and disappear as suits the moment.

Also butter, personal experiences of faith and miracles are not evidence to an atheist, so tell me, what would you suggest?

Curious minds want to know.

(Jennifer beat me to it. Case closed).

quote:

When good things happen, it just good luck, God had nothing to do with it.

The above quote I do agree with: It's good luck.

The "when bad things happen we jump on a bandwagon thing" is not true. It's the opposite of good luck when bad things happen, in other words "bad luck". It's when people ask why "god" let's bad things happen that I say, because there is no god and s*** happens.

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:

quote:

Originally posted by Jankinonya:

So let me get this straight. You see no problem with making fun of "fundies" such as BG but NSNS or Unobtanium can't voice their opinions on how they feel about ALL religion.

so much for humor.

no, of course i don't mean that.
but it isn't necessary to insult and belittle people that do believe when expressing their beliefs is it?

why be rude when it isn't necessary.

we all got along just fine a few months ago.

we were polite.

and now that NSNS has returned the need for common courtesy went the way of the dodo, i guess.

which is one of the main things i have against bill. not necessarily what he says, but how he says it.

Well without the use of a It is hard to tell that you were trying to be humorous. Especially after the rant that came before that bit.

I don't hate you nagel, that is an emotion I hold for only 2 people in this world and you are no where close to that.

I did get a bit defensive and maybe putoff by what you were saying because it seems to me that you are the one that has of late been pushing buttons and not so easy going. If that is what you want to do then its fine by me. As I stated in another post I will deal with it or I won't. It will just depend on the mood I am in.

I think you were just used to me and my ways and had no idea that there were other atheist out there that didn't pull any punches. I am the kinder gentler version.

Don't let it get to you so much. You believe, we don't..some of us will be more vocal and some of us will be more understanding. Its what makes the world go round.

I will however say whats on my mind more than I have in the past. NSNS and Unobtanium shame me. I should not be so afraid to speak up for what I think is right and wrong.

You have made some pretty strong comments here on the forum yourself. That is one of the things I like about you. I don't understand this attitude that somehow others are not allowed that same freedom.

The problem I have with BG is his twisting and turning of everyones words and how he refuses to ever admit he could be wrong. I have never known NSNS to be that way. If you presented him with proof that he is wrong I guarantee you he would back up and acknowledge his mistake. He has been here a very long time. Look for Deepfat in the directory and read some of his older post. He is very passionate about how he believes religion harms more people than it helps. He honestly just wants to help others see the dangers of believing in a false reality. He has just been doing it so long he no longer says it with and sugar.

quote:

Originally posted by b50m:
Nagel,
It goes back to the old double standard. 'True Christians', according to the atheist club, must take all the insults, snide remarks, derogatory language, defaming cartoons, and purpose misspelling of any religious terms with out a peep. We must behave as the sheeple we are accused of being.

If we decide to point out that those things are very hurtful, then we are not being 'accepting' enough. Case in point was the post I put up a few weeks ago that had all the atheists 'panties in a wad'. The author insulted them as a whole and it was not considered to be a nice thing for me to do. I was attacked from all sides.

Sometimes, even a 'good Christian' has reached a limit. And I'm not even a good one. Some times the sheep bite the shepard.

yeah. i'm getting that.
we're wrong if we meet the stereotype.
we're wrong if we don't, because then that makes us unchristianly.
they can attack at will, but if we defend or return fire, then we are hypocrits.. and we get the old 'pot/kettle' referance.
and it seems that courtesy and politeness really has gone out the window.

to try and behave with manners, and to hint that others could do the same and suddenly i am 'thin skinned'.

nah. i'm a father of 2. i just get enough of preteen bickering and whining all day long i was trying to avoid it here as well, where we are all supposedly adults.

it was worth a shot, i suppose.


Uno...

it's ok.. technology is The Debbil...
and i feel your pain, too.. i was athiest/agnostic for a long long time, until i suddenly had a pretty serious reason not to be one anymore. long story. won't bore you with it.

you can disagree with us all you want.
heck most of them even disagree with me, and i believe in the Guy.

take VP for example.
i seriously dislike the current pope. i think he is a vile human, i think he should be imprisoned for hte rest of his life, and i think he's going to burn slow after he dies.
but my feelings of that one man do not reflect my feelings of the Catholic church in general, and i think VP is one of the most amazing people i've ever conversed with.

just because i don't share her belief in pope benny doesn't mean i need to tear her down or to try and make her feel bad, or look stupid, or incapable of rational thought...

i think the primary reason you, as an athiest, can't see the things we faithy types see and feel the things we feel is that you are afraid of looking stupid, possibly even to yourself, so you willfully block out the possibility of seeing it, and then complain that since you can't see it, it cannot be real.

" there's no proof in this stuff.. it's all hokum... it's a fairy tale.. you'd have to be dilusional to believe this stuff.. cause you can't proove anything.. and i'm not delusional.. so i can't believe any of that"

i know in my teens and early 20's that was part of my problem. i valued my own intellegence far to much to be able to let myself be fooled by some silly folk tales.

maybe that's part of the reason you have. maybe it isn't. it doesn't much matter, and i don't much care.
the reason for your choice of athiesm isn't a factor. i accept and respect it, and at no point have i ever said to you, or jank, or billy joe, or NSNS or anyone else 'you are wrong, there is a god, you're a fool for trying to deny Him and you're gonna burn if you don't mend your ways."

i haven't. i'm not, and i won't.
i came here to share ideas. to expand the things i know, and, maybe, share something or another i've learned along the way.
i came here to discuss interesting possibilities and join in speculative reasoning in the area of religion.
i didn't come here to judge or be judged. i didnt' come to tell anyone they were wrong and idiotic, and in return i expected equal treatment.
i guess that was a bit foolish on my part.

i was taught that to get respect you give respect, and when shown respect you return respect.
no, i didn't learn it in sunday school, i learned it from a little old man who lived down the street.. he had a bum knee from surviving polio. i dunno what his beliefs were, it was never brought up.


if no one is interested in learning and tradings ideas anymore, and it's just going back to threats, insults and petty idiocy, then perhaps it's time i shuffled off, like several others have.

quote:

we're wrong if we meet the stereotype.
we're wrong if we don't, because then that makes us unchristianly.

You got it. I have taken breaks in the past, and it's about time for another. When you start getting upset over virtual reality discussions, it's time to take a siesta.

quote:

Originally posted by Jankinonya:
I did get a bit defensive and maybe putoff by what you were saying because it seems to me that you are the one that has of late been pushing buttons and not so easy going. If that is what you want to do then its fine by me. As I stated in another post I will deal with it or I won't. It will just depend on the mood I am in.

fun. you got defensive to me geting defensive.

quote:

I think you were just used to me and my ways and had no idea that there were other atheist out there that didn't pull any punches. I am the kinder gentler version.

how about 'the better, non-obnoxious version'

quote:

Don't let it get to you so much. You believe, we don't..some of us will be more vocal and some of us will be more understanding. Its what makes the world go round.
I will however say whats on my mind more than I have in the past. NSNS and Unobtanium shame me. I should not be so afraid to speak up for what I think is right and wrong.

shame you?
because you're polite?

ok.. you got me... for the first time, i will now say
Jank, you are wrong.
it's you that shames them, because you can convey the same point and message without finding it neccessary to insult someone just because you disagree with them, even if you do find something they believe in strongly to be absurd.

that's fine. i think the mormoms are totally wrong, and that the jehovahs witnisses are even worse.
however, i'm not going to say to one of them 'good grief, how can soemone who claims to be a rational thinking adult even pretend to believe in that?"

the phrase 'don't pull any punches' doesn't mean the same thing as 'unnecessarily rude and obnoxious'.

no 'sugar coating' doesn't mean looking at pictures of your friends ugly ugly ugly baby and saying 'GOOD GOD what threw THAT up?"
it means looking at the picture and saying "Aww.. how old is she? she's a sweetie."


Bah...

just... whatever.
this is going no place.

Hi B50,

You tell me, "Bill, you have been called worse by the atheists, trust me. I have called you a bumbling old fashioned fundy with delusions of God-hood, but see, that's just an opinion. The atheists call everyone stupid, you argue with Christians over how to be one and accuse other denominations of being cults."

You say that your name calling was merely opinion. Well, in that sense, when atheists and Roman Catholics call me stupid; that, too, is merely an opinion. Both are derogatory names calling. Wouldn't our discussions be much more pleasant if everyone stopped name calling, stop using defaming insinuations -- and just stick to discussing facts as we know them. Then, we can discuss those facts and agree with them -- or refute them, as we feel appropriate.

You say, ". . .you argue with Christians over how to be one and accuse other denominations of being cults."

The churches I call cults are those who deny the deity of Jesus Christ. What would you call these churches? They most certainly are not Christian if they deny Jesus Christ.

I do not call denominational churches cults; although there are those who do teach a Liberal Theology. Yet, even those mired in Liberal Theology are Christian and not cults.

But, I do refute all New Age teaching -- for they are the polar opposite of Christianity.

With our Roman Catholic Friends, I do not refute their claim to be Christians. Only they and God know for sure; the same with you and me. However, I do refute their traditions, teachings, rituals, and dogmas which are not Biblical, i.e., the elevation of Mary to pseudo-deity, elevating people to special sainthood, purgatory, infallibility of any mortal man, teaching that one cannot have eternal security, etc.

I am concerned that our Liberal Theology Friends recognize the Written Word of God as being only myths and metaphors -- and not the inspired, inerrant, literal Written Word of God. This does not affect their salvation; but, it sure puts a heavy cloud over their peace of mind, their eternal security, and their assurance of eternal life in Christ. They have this marvelous gift, His promise of eternal life -- but, do not want to acknowledge it. So, they go through life looking over their shoulders; always afraid they will lose their eternal salvation -- or wondering if they ever had it. This is a sad way to live -- and not what God wants for His children.

Then, you say, "We can ignore the atheists as not being worth the trouble."

I can accept the atheists' and secularists' denial of God; for they are spiritually blind. We need to keep sowing seeds and pointing them in the right direction. Who knows, some may eventually join us in the body of Christ.

What bothers me most with some atheists, and many vanilla-flavored non-believers do this also -- is when they come into a serious discussion and insert their totally off-subject, cutesy comments -- only for the purpose of high jacking or derailing any serious discussion between others. If the discussion even smells of Christian truth -- we can count on them to jump in with innocuous comments. I would much rather see them join into a serious discussion with us -- even if they disagree. These disagreements we can discuss. Silly comments are only appropriate for urinal walls.

You tell me, "You cause a problem in faith."

This comment can be taken several ways. So, I am going to assume this connects with your earlier comment, "". . .you argue with Christians over how to be one and accuse other denominations of being cults."

When anyone, teacher, disciple, or otherwise, comes into a Christian community bringing false teachings -- we are instructed by the apostle Paul to test their teachings against Scripture (Acts 17:11). If their teachings are Biblical, we agree. If their teachings are not Biblical -- we must refute them. Jesus tells us, in Matthew 28:19-20, to Go, Make disciples, Baptize them, TEACH them. What are we to teach them? He tells His apostles, and us, to teach them, "to observe all things that I have commanded you." -- in other words, the things Jesus had taught His disciples during His three year earthly ministry -- we are to teach today.

We cannot argue over "how to become a Christian" -- for the Bible is clear about this: You must be born again (John 3:3) and this is accomplished by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9). This is the only way anyone can become a Christian believer. And, once that happens, we are indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13,
4:30) until the day of our redemption, i.e. rapture or death. There is no other way to become a Christian believer -- so, what is there to argue about?

By Jesus' command, we are to share the Gospel with the world (Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15) and we are to test all our teachers against Scripture (Acts 17:11). If a church is a cult, we are to proclaim this. If a church is teaching erroneous doctrine, we are to proclaim this. We are instructed to do this in 2 Timothy 4:1-2 -- and verses 3-4 tell why -- because folks will have a tendency to turn to false teachers who tell them what they want to hear -- and will turn aside to myths instead of Biblical truths.

This may "cause a problem" with those wishing to share false teachings. But, it should never cause a problem among Christian believers who base their salvation upon the teachings of Scripture.

Finally, you tell me, "That's why you get so many comments."

Actually, the comments come from only a handful of Forum members. Considering there are over 11,000 Forum members and an unknown number of unregistered readers -- that is not bad. I have no problem with folks disagreeing with me. I would not want the comments, both in support and in disagreement, to stop. Those disagreements fuel good discussions which benefit us and those who read us.

What I would like to see stopped is the name calling and derogatory comments. Let's comment, agree, disagree, debate, refute, argue at times -- but, let's hold off on the nasty names and comments. Then, we could have a fantastic Forum community.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Jennifer:
And Bill, about the fourth time now, give me a list of an atheists "religious" beliefs.

Hi Jennifer,

Let me see:

1. Atheists BELIEVE that God does not exist.

2. Atheists BELIEVE in Darwinian Evolution.

3. Atheists BELIEVE science is god.

4. Atheists BELIEVE there is no eternal life.

5. Atheists BELIEVE that Christians are stupid!

These are the atheist belief system; therefore, their religion.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill, I said a list of "RELIGIOUS" beliefs. You said atheism was a religion. It isn't.

Atheists BELIEVE science is god.
Not true: Atheists do not believe in a god.

Atheists BELIEVE that Christians are stupid!
Not all of them.

Atheists BELIEVE that God does not exist.
No, atheists know that no god exists.

Atheists BELIEVE there is no eternal life.
Again, not a belief, we know there isn't an eternal life.

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:
.... here i sit, mostly in the back ground.
watching.
waiting.
for someone to open an interesting topic.

we have Bill. whining and shouting about homosexuals and sola whatevers, trying to explain to all of us how no one but he is correct.

then we have NSNS and Unob, trying to explain to all of us that there is no god, what a silly idea. the two people who wandered into this forum and upset a simple balance we'd found between athiest and faithful.

and that confuses me. why? why would they wander in, find a reasonable peace established between ingelligent people, and do their best to make sure that peace no longer exists.
unless they can't accept the idea that people don't crawl by their words. is that the problem? some people are worshiping God and not hanging on their every word?
or is their life so empty they must go so far out of their way to cause conflict between people?

i don't mean belief or lack thereof,
i mean, don't they have anything better to do that to start petty schoolyard squabbles?
the only life they have is wandering into places populated by the faithful and trying to kick up a ruckus..
how childish and pathetic.

OH NOO.. NOOO you CAN'T think there is a GAWD!... with his Son Jebus! no one who is smart n stuff could ever believe in JEBUS!!
we know , cause we call spell it JEBUS and make fun of GAWD so that means we're really smart.

sorry.

you wander into the religion forum, and you do your best to create a ruckus, and show us all how smart you all are, and how you're so smart you aren't fooled by the great sky fairy story.

yeah.. well. all i can is you aren't smart enough or eleoquent enough or clever enough to remove the faith you've found in front of you.

regardless of what you've said or the cute little videos you've posted, i still believe. dawkins is irrelevent. we've seen him. we've heard him. and yet, he remains unimportant.
VP still is a catholic.
and you are still nothing.

now, if you're done, we'd like to go back to making fun of Fundies like bill, and trying to find some reasonable middle ground where we can converse without insulting each other.

we were doing just fine with that without you.

we'll continue doing just fine once you're gone.

My dear thenagel,

God is the silly idea.

One or two of our friends have mentioned that I have been here longer than you. True enough. I've put forth my point of view, reasonably well laid out, if I do say so myself, for everyone's consideration. I haven't traipsed in here, destroying any sort of equilibrium. I am the equilibrium.

No one crawls by my words. I don't expect or ask for acolytes. I want to give people reason to think. If one is capable of thinking, and willing to think, I will have lots of company here, as I indeed do.

I find it amusing that you think Dawkins is irrelevant. His books, especially "The God Delusion", sell by the millions around the world. They're translated into dozens of languages. He speaks to packed houses everywhere he goes. Let's hear about your latest book.

Who's irrelevant now? Shall I not suggest videos because you find them abrasive? Sorry. Don't click on them, then. We live in the video age. Audio/visual input still impacts us humans more than the written word. Look for another video suggestion soon.

I'm not done. I've just begun. When atheists have a political voice in the South, perhaps I'll be done then. When atheists are regarded in society at large as having a legitimate point of view, which we do, maybe then I'll be done.

Not yet, however. I have work to do. It's up to me to demonstrate the vapidity and outright silliness of the stylish superstition.

Expect me.


nsns

Definitions of religion on the Web:

•a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny;•an institution to express belief in a divine power

quote:

Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:
.... here i sit, mostly in the back ground.
watching.
waiting.
for someone to open an interesting topic.

we have Bill. whining and shouting about homosexuals and sola whatevers, trying to explain to all of us how no one but he is correct.

then we have NSNS and Unob, trying to explain to all of us that there is no god, what a silly idea. the two people who wandered into this forum and upset a simple balance we'd found between athiest and faithful.

and that confuses me. why? why would they wander in, find a reasonable peace established between ingelligent people, and do their best to make sure that peace no longer exists.
unless they can't accept the idea that people don't crawl by their words. is that the problem? some people are worshiping God and not hanging on their every word?
or is their life so empty they must go so far out of their way to cause conflict between people?

i don't mean belief or lack thereof,
i mean, don't they have anything better to do that to start petty schoolyard squabbles?
the only life they have is wandering into places populated by the faithful and trying to kick up a ruckus..
how childish and pathetic.

OH NOO.. NOOO you CAN'T think there is a GAWD!... with his Son Jebus! no one who is smart n stuff could ever believe in JEBUS!!
we know , cause we call spell it JEBUS and make fun of GAWD so that means we're really smart.

sorry.

you wander into the religion forum, and you do your best to create a ruckus, and show us all how smart you all are, and how you're so smart you aren't fooled by the great sky fairy story.

yeah.. well. all i can is you aren't smart enough or eleoquent enough or clever enough to remove the faith you've found in front of you.

regardless of what you've said or the cute little videos you've posted, i still believe. dawkins is irrelevent. we've seen him. we've heard him. and yet, he remains unimportant.
VP still is a catholic.
and you are still nothing.

now, if you're done, we'd like to go back to making fun of Fundies like bill, and trying to find some reasonable middle ground where we can converse without insulting each other.

we were doing just fine with that without you.

we'll continue doing just fine once you're gone.

My dear thenagel,

God is the silly idea.

One or two of our friends have mentioned that I have been here longer than you. True enough. I've put forth my point of view, reasonably well laid out, if I do say so myself, for everyone's consideration. I haven't traipsed in here, destroying any sort of equilibrium. I am the equilibrium.

No one crawls by my words. I don't expect or ask for acolytes. I want to give people reason to think. If one is capable of thinking, and willing to think, I will have lots of company here, as I indeed do.

I find it amusing that you think Dawkins is irrelevant. His books, especially "The God Delusion", sell by the millions around the world. They're translated into dozens of languages. He speaks to packed houses everywhere he goes. Let's hear about your latest book.

Who's irrelevant now? Shall I not suggest videos because you find them abrasive? Sorry. Don't click on them, then. We live in the video age. Audio/visual input still impacts us humans more than the written word. Look for another video suggestion soon.

I'm not done. I've just begun. When atheists have a political voice in the South, perhaps I'll be done then. When atheists are regarded in society at large as having a legitimate point of view, which we do, maybe then I'll be done.

Not yet, however. I have work to do. It's up to me to demonstrate the vapidity and outright silliness of the stylish superstition.

Expect me.


nsns

Shallow,

Being of sound mind and with the power vested in me as the captain of a vessel I do hereby dub thee as an atheist voice of the South and accompanied with all the rights, privileges and dues expected of you by mankind. To have and hold the same payable in due regard to any presents by or on behalf of any citizen of these Southern States and if found deficient , catastrophe the remedy, in favor of the same, to any holdings of any real or promised property personal or in heir ;monies included , by yourself and descendents in perpetuity.

Given by my hand this twelfth day of November, In The Year Of Our Lord, Two Thousand Ten.

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:
.... here i sit, mostly in the back ground.
watching.
waiting.
for someone to open an interesting topic.

we have Bill. whining and shouting about homosexuals and sola whatevers, trying to explain to all of us how no one but he is correct.

then we have NSNS and Unob, trying to explain to all of us that there is no god, what a silly idea. the two people who wandered into this forum and upset a simple balance we'd found between athiest and faithful.

and that confuses me. why? why would they wander in, find a reasonable peace established between ingelligent people, and do their best to make sure that peace no longer exists.
unless they can't accept the idea that people don't crawl by their words. is that the problem? some people are worshiping God and not hanging on their every word?
or is their life so empty they must go so far out of their way to cause conflict between people?

i don't mean belief or lack thereof,
i mean, don't they have anything better to do that to start petty schoolyard squabbles?
the only life they have is wandering into places populated by the faithful and trying to kick up a ruckus..
how childish and pathetic.

OH NOO.. NOOO you CAN'T think there is a GAWD!... with his Son Jebus! no one who is smart n stuff could ever believe in JEBUS!!
we know , cause we call spell it JEBUS and make fun of GAWD so that means we're really smart.

sorry.

you wander into the religion forum, and you do your best to create a ruckus, and show us all how smart you all are, and how you're so smart you aren't fooled by the great sky fairy story.

yeah.. well. all i can is you aren't smart enough or eleoquent enough or clever enough to remove the faith you've found in front of you.

regardless of what you've said or the cute little videos you've posted, i still believe. dawkins is irrelevent. we've seen him. we've heard him. and yet, he remains unimportant.
VP still is a catholic.
and you are still nothing.

now, if you're done, we'd like to go back to making fun of Fundies like bill, and trying to find some reasonable middle ground where we can converse without insulting each other.

we were doing just fine with that without you.

we'll continue doing just fine once you're gone.

My dear thenagel,

God is the silly idea.

One or two of our friends have mentioned that I have been here longer than you. True enough. I've put forth my point of view, reasonably well laid out, if I do say so myself, for everyone's consideration. I haven't traipsed in here, destroying any sort of equilibrium. I am the equilibrium.

No one crawls by my words. I don't expect or ask for acolytes. I want to give people reason to think. If one is capable of thinking, and willing to think, I will have lots of company here, as I indeed do.

I find it amusing that you think Dawkins is irrelevant. His books, especially "The God Delusion", sell by the millions around the world. They're translated into dozens of languages. He speaks to packed houses everywhere he goes. Let's hear about your latest book.

Who's irrelevant now? Shall I not suggest videos because you find them abrasive? Sorry. Don't click on them, then. We live in the video age. Audio/visual input still impacts us humans more than the written word. Look for another video suggestion soon.

I'm not done. I've just begun. When atheists have a political voice in the South, perhaps I'll be done then. When atheists are regarded in society at large as having a legitimate point of view, which we do, maybe then I'll be done.

Not yet, however. I have work to do. It's up to me to demonstrate the vapidity and outright silliness of the stylish superstition.

Expect me.


nsns

Shallow,

Being of sound mind and with the power vested in me as the captain of a vessel I do hereby dub thee as an atheist voice of the South and accompanied with all the rights, privileges and dues expected of you by mankind. To have and hold the same payable in due regard to any presents by or on behalf of any citizen of these Southern States and if found deficient , catastrophe the remedy, in favor of the same, to any holdings of any real or promised property personal or in heir ;monies included , by yourself and descendents in perpetuity.

Given by my hand this twelfth day of November, In The Year Of Our Lord, Two Thousand Ten.

Now thats just funny.

the captain of a vessel....LOL

NSNS, say yes to the appointment and come home to help me wrestle Buffalo to the ground. We have to get him back to the home before somebody gets hurt!

My dear Jank,

I have every intention of visiting the place of my birth in the Spring, but I'll pay you $5.45 not to have to engage Lunatic #2.

nsns