quote:
Hi GD,
First of all, the man you seem to be following teaches a weird theology -- somewhere between Herbert W. Armstrong and the Universalist Unitarian church. The man, L. Ray Smith, is not an honest interpreter of Scripture -- for nowhere on his web site does he tell us his Biblical Beliefs or Doctrines -- and, if he attends a church -- he keeps it and its identity a closely guarded secret.
If you are really interested maybe you should ask him? What I can tell you is Mr. Smith teaches from the Scriptures, unlike most of Christianity. He does not rely on people to tell him what Scriptures mean, because he studies them and the Spirit reveals it to him.
quote:
The first MAJOR Red Flag comes on his home page
http://bible-truths.com which declares:
"L. Ray Smith debunks the Christian doctrine of an eternal hell. . ."
He teaches that there is no hell -- which is totally contrary to Biblical teachings.
You mean totally contrary to the traditional pagan teachings of men?
quote:
In Luke 16:19-31 we read the story of the rich man and Lazarus. How Smith comes to the conclusion that Jesus was referring to nations and not to individuals -- is beyond me. This seems to be a correlation Smith derived in his own head.
If you read the entire paper you would know how Mr. Smith came to that conclusion. Your assessment that it is beyond you is correct, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. Hopefully someone out there is being called by the Lord through the honest scholarship of Mr. Smith. The majority of "believers" will not believe a word of it, and that is expected.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Those that are "wise" in their own conceits, those with a haughty spirit, they who are "righteous" are unable to see. It is the nothings of the world, the base things of the world, the sinners of the world, the weak of this world that the Lord is calling at this time.
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29
That no flesh should glory in his presence. quote:
At that time, before the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ -- all who died went into either Torment or Paradise.
Are you sure that you want to make such an UN-scriptural claim? If Lazarus and The Rich Man is literal, and not a parable, then it contradicts many other plain Scriptures regarding the dead AND the resurrection of the dead. Please show me where it says in the Scriptures, that when all who died BEFORE THE DEATH AND RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST either went into torment or paradise. Remember, we need to rely on other Scriptures to explain the Scripture in question.
quote:
Jesus Christ promised the thief of the cross, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43).
The ancient Scriptures did not have punctuation marks such as commas like we have in the English. So it was up to the translators to provide them to help the Scriptures make sense. Translators are not perfect, they make mistakes often, and such is the case with Luke 23:43. Most translations of the Scriptures, like the NASB, KJV, NIV, HCSB and many others place the comma before the word "today" which totally changes the intended meaning of that verse. Only a few of the literal translations put the placement of the comma in the right place. Here are a few different versions of the same verse from different translations for consideration.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise. (Concordant Literal Version)
Luk 23:43 And said to him the Jesus: Indeed I say to thee to-day, with me thou shalt be in the Paradise. (Diaglott-NT)
Luk 23:43 He replied: »Today I tell you this. You will be with me in paradise. (New Simplified Bible)
Luk 23:43 And he said unto him—Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me, shalt thou be in Paradise. (Rotherham)
You can see what a big difference the placement of a comma can make. By retaining the proper placement of the comma, we can retain the harmonization of the Scriptures. Placing the comma in the wrong place contradicts many other plain Scriptures regarding what happens after death, to the dead, and the resurrection OF the dead.
quote:
When Jesus resurrected He led the believers, the saints in Paradise, out of Hades and into heaven (Ephesians 4:8) where they now reside. When Jesus resurrected, He hung an "Out of Business" sign on the Paradise side of Hades -- and reestablished Paradise in heaven.
Ephesians 4:8 has absolutely nothing to do with saints in paradise or hades. If you would follow your own rules for interpreting you would know without a doubt what Eph 4:8 is talking about. Eph 4:8 speaks of the good news Jesus brought to the afflicted, it speaks about the gift of grace and truth which frees us from UN-scriptural beliefs, evil doctrines and the traditions of men, and also the pulls of the sinful flesh which so easily captures us, and it was predicted by Isaiah that Jesus would do just that. Jesus even said this prophecy was fulfilled that day as He was speaking it.
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners;
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn,
Isa 61:3 To grant those who mourn in Zion, Giving them a garland instead of ashes, The oil of gladness instead of mourning, The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting. So they will be called oaks of righteousness, The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.
Luk 4:17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
Luk 4:19 TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD."
Luk 4:20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him.
Luk 4:21
And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."Obviously this prophecy was fulfilled even before Jesus died and resurrected. If you read Eph 4:14 you will see the results of being made free from a captive of "every wind of doctrine".
Lets read it together in context shall we?
Eph 4:7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.
Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
Eph 4:9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
Eph 4:14
As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
Eph 4:15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
Eph 4:17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
Eph 4:18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;
Eph 4:19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.
Eph 4:20 But you did not learn Christ in this way,
Eph 4:21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,
Eph 4:22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
Eph 4:23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Eph 4:24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
Eph 4:25 Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another.
How you get paradise and hades out of that and all the other supporting Scriptures is understandable, but totally UN-scriptural. It is by grace the truth sets captives free from pagan doctrines and carnal pulls of the flesh.
Joh 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
Joh 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.
quote:
We are told by Jesus, in John 14:6, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY into the presence of God the Father
That is scripture, and I agree, but....
quote:
-- and, that day, on His resurrection, He personally escorted the Old Testament saints into the presence of God the Father.
...this is UN-scriptural, unfounded and totally baseless in the Scriptures. Your gonna have to do some serious Scriptural gymnastics to make the Scriptures say that.
quote:
Yet, the Torment side of Hades was left intact. It is still there today -- and will be there -- until at the end of the Millennial Kingdom of Christ on earth. Those who died not believing in Jesus Christ -- ALL non-believers, Old Testament, New Testament, and Tribulation -- who died in disbelief; will be resurrected.
At the end of the Millennial Kingdom, they will be brought out of Torment/Hades and resurrected in their immortal bodies
Lazarus and The Rich Man is parable, and can be proven through usage and definitions of the Hebrew word "Sheol". "Sheol" is the exact equivalent of the Greek "Hades". Through word usage and definitions we can prove conclusively that Lazarus and the Rich Man is indeed a parable. Once again if Lazarus and The Rich Man is to be taken literally, then it would contradict the definitions and Scriptures I will be presenting.
'Sheol' as defined by Strong's dictionary of the Hebrew.
H7585
שׁאל שׁאול
she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.
Notice the reference to "hades".
'Hades' from Strong's Greek dictionary.
G86
ᾅδης
hadēs
hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly
unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.
As you can see these two words are synonyms, and they both mean the "grave". More specifically, the state the dead are in while in the grave. So what is the state of the dead? Would you believe they are really dead? It's true, when people die, they are dead, as in totally unconscious, totally unable to perceive anything, hence the reference to the word "unseen" as part of its definition. Contrary to popular Christian belief, which says that when we die we either go to hell or heaven immediately upon death, Scriptures state we actually do die. Most Christians believe they have an "immortal soul" that cannot die. Oh they say people die, but what they really mean is that when people "die" they are really alive in another location, such as heaven or hell.
I've given you the definitions of the synonyms 'Sheol' and 'Hades', now I will give you some Scriptures which should prove once and for all that the dead are really dead, and that Lazarus and The Rich Man is a parable which is not meant to be taken literally, or else it contradicts these Scriptures.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know they will die;
but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
The dead "do not know anything" because the brain stops functioning when they die.
Ecc 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might;
for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol (the grave) where you are going.
I think this is pretty self explanatory. In case it is not, what this is saying is that nothing is happening in Sheol (the state of the dead), because your dead.
Psa 6:5 For there is no mention of You in death; In Sheol who will give You thanks?
It is only when we are alive and not dead can we thank the Lord. In other words, no talking in Sheol because your dead.
Isa 38:18 "For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.
Isa 38:19 "It is the living who give thanks to You, as I do today; A father tells his sons about Your faithfulness.
See?
It seems the majority of Christianity continues to believe the same lie Satan told Eve in the garden.
Gen 3:4 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!
Despite the clear warnings from God.
Gen 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it
you will surely die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
quote:
So, GB, when L. Ray. Smith tells us in his article, "But he is not "burning in eternal hell fire" -- that is true. The rich man, himself, tells us in Luke 16:24, ". . .for I am in agony in this flame." The rich man is not yet in the lake of fire, the final hell -- but, he is suffering from the flames of punishment in Torment.
Correction, the word "flame" is in the singular, not in the plural as you suggest. Just how many hells is there? And why is the rich man being punished?
quote:
GB, you quote Matthew 13:34 as your proof that Jesus taught only in parables:
Matthew 13:34, "All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,
Matthew 13:35, "that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world."
Yet, many well known and respected Bible teachers and commentators believe and teach that this Scripture passage was referring to this one instance of His teaching and not to all of His teachings.
No not my proof, it is what is written. Do I really need to quote all the times Jesus spoke in parables? What I will tell you is that the word "parable" is found 31 times in the NT, and I seriously doubt all 31 times Jesus taught in parables are only found in the verse I gave you. Lazarus and The Rich Man is parable in a series of parables Jesus taught to the multitudes during one sitting. If you go to Luke 15:1 you will see where Jesus starts this series of parables in one sitting all the way to Luke 17:10 where He finally leaves on His way to Jerusalem. It is one uninterrupted parable after another between these two chapters in Luke. Dont take my word for it, as I encourage everyone to read and decide for themselves to see if these things are true. We really do not need any man to teach us by their Un-scriptural commentaries, we really should read and STUDY for ourselves and rely on the anointing of the Spirit that teaches us all things.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Being a "well known and respected Bible teachers and commentators" does not always mean they have the truth. Remember, "not too many wise, not too many noble" are called.
quote:
GD, anyone who teaches that there is no hell -- is teaching an unBiblical theology and is greasing the slippery slope for all who follow his teachings. Visit
http://www.blueletterbible.org, in the KJV, and do a search for HELL. You will find that hell is taught all through the Bible from Deuteronomy to Revelation. And, many of those teachings are from the mouth of Jesus Christ.
I think "unpopular" is a better word, as the Original Scriptures do not contain the word "hell" in them. "Hell" is an old English word, and it is often mistranslated from the Hebrew 'Sheol' and the Greek 'Hades' both of which simply means "the grave" and "the state of the dead". Eternal torment of dead souls in fire for eternity is a nothing more than a sick pagan myth. Even the word "eternal" is not found anywhere in the original Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. There was no word in all the languages of the world before the 2nd century that meant "eternal". By time the 2nd century was over the Scriptures had already been written. For more Scriptural information concerning the validity of words like "everlasting" "eternal" and "for ever and ever" check out another great paper written by L. Ray Smith, titled:Is "Everlasting" Scriptural? [A wanna-be scholar challenges Ray] which can be found here:
http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htmAfter reading I humbly suggest that you study the Scriptures, to see if what he says is true.
quote:
Yes, heaven and hell are real -- and they are the ONLY two eternal destinations for all mankind. Jesus tells us, in Matthew 25:46, "And these (non-believers) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Here is a much more accurate rendering of that verse.
Mat 25:46 And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life.
quote:
GD, welcome to the Religion Forum. It is always good to have new voices and new thoughts.
Thank you Bill Gray for the welcome.
quote:
But, one thing you will find about me is that when a question is raised, my first response will be, "What does the Bible say about that?" If we always look to Scripture for the answer, we seldom will go wrong.
Please do not take this personal, cause you seem like a nice guy, but it seems when your not sure whether to believe what is written, you go to the commentators, when you should just believe on the Scriptures, and THEN you will not go wrong.
quote:
True, many of us will disagree on the interpretation of some Scripture passages; but, even in our disagreeing and the ensuing discussion, we all learn and grow in our knowledge of God's Written Word.
I must admit I have learned a bit here. I've never seen anyone twist the Scriptures that say Jesus only spoke in parables to mean He only spoke in parables in that one verse. Anyone who is anyone can read all the other times Jesus taught in parables outside that verse. So yeah, that was new. I really hope when you say "we" that you learned something too, if not you then maybe someone out there who cannot understand how a God of love could torture anyone for all eternity because He was powerless against the fabled "free will" of mankind to be able to save them.
Peace
gdriggs
can be done with assurance that “ Ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience”. Muhahaha No punishment involved.
