well.....

quote:

Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
My dear Jank,

I have every intention of visiting the place of my birth in the Spring, but I'll pay you $5.45 not to have to engage Lunatic #2.

nsns

Make it $6.50 and I will wrangle him back to the home for crazy sea captains all by myself.

Drinks on me come the Spring!

$6.50 it is, and the second round is on me!

nsns

[SOAPBOX]

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:
...and that confuses me. why? why would they wander in, find a reasonable peace established between ingelligent people, and do their best to make sure that peace no longer exists....

thenagel,
I've enjoyed your posts in the past. I must say, however, that in reference to the above statement, we all have to take responsibility for our emotions and actions. No one is forcing you, me or anyone to lose our patience, or civility. Likewise, no one is forcing us to log on to and read posts on this forum. We can't blame others for making us upset, that's on us. How we respond to jerks and the insane is on us as well. If certain people aren't worth your time, don't read them. If they stir up the people that you like on here into distraction from actual discussion, well, that's on them. That's life and as the Beatles said it's "nothing to get hung about". It works for me anyway. If you want an interesting topic, start one. If you want to have a civil discussion, knock yourself out.

quote:

Originally posted by b50m:
...The atheists call everyone stupid,..
...according to the atheist club...
...To an atheist, all the ills of the world are based on religion...

b,
I urge you again not to lump us all (or anyone) into a simplified grouping in order to make a point.

quote:

Originally posted by b50m:
...When bad things happen, atheists jump on the bad wagon and say 'See, God doesn't exist, He is a fraud.'
When good things happen, it just good luck, God had nothing to do with it
Amazing how He can appear and disappear as suits the moment....

Correction:
When bad things happen, atheists say 'God doesn't exist.'
When good things happen, atheists say 'God doesn't exist.'
There is no hypocrisy in that. No God means no God, good or bad.

quote:

Originally posted by Jennifer:
...atheists know that no god exists...
...we know there isn't an eternal life...

Jennifer,
We can't know with a 100% certainty that there are no gods or some kind of afterlife.
However, to BG, denying that Santa or tooth fairies exist is also the definition of a religion. To BG, bald is a hair color. His opinion on these matters isn't worth the electrons with which to respond.
[/SOAPBOX]

quote:

Originally posted by Jankinonya:

quote:

Originally posted by Unobtanium:
Keep in mind that most if nor all of us atheists werwonw believers. We cwrtunly feel tour pain.

That said, exactly how mug awe we allowed to disagree over the existance of your invisible auperman?

hahahahahaha shall I translate that for you?

I am going to give it whack because I think its worth making clear.

"Keep in mind that most if not all of us atheist were once believers. We certainly feel your pain.

That said, exactly how much are we allowed to disagree over the existence of your invisible superman?"

I have been wondering the same thing myself.

tank you. yow are hired ass my transwator.

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:
it's ok.. technology is The Debbil...
and i feel your pain, too.. i was athiest/agnostic for a long long time, until i suddenly had a pretty serious reason not to be one anymore. long story. won't bore you with it.

i would be beyond interested in your experience. i simply cannot imagine re-believing in santa and would be fascinated at how someone could re-conclude his existence.[/QUOTE]

quote:

i think the primary reason you, as an athiest, can't see the things we faithy types see and feel the things we feel is that you are afraid of looking stupid, possibly even to yourself, so you willfully block out the possibility of seeing it, and then complain that since you can't see it, it cannot be real.

it is impossible for me to believe that you were once an atheist. i can imagine that some atheists are "atheist ebcause they "hate god,." that makes absolutely no sense but i've heard of that before. but an atheist is an atheist because he has looked at the evidnece and finds it lacking. or he has educated himself on ratinoal ways that "all those stars up there" could come into existance. speaking only for myself (but im nearly certain i also speak for every other atheist on this forum) im an atheist because i finally admitted the truth to myself. it had lurked deep down for a long time but i did not want to admit to myself that i ate babies and worshipped satan as i was taught.

but i gathered enough courage to admit it to myself and am a much better person for it..... except for the baby eating thing and the devil worship. baby meat is too tough and im too old for those all night demon orgies.

quote:

maybe that's part of the reason you have. maybe it isn't. it doesn't much matter, and i don't much care.
the reason for your choice of athiesm isn't a factor.

it is not a choice! see? it is this kind of ignorance that causes some atheists to get a little tizzy. one does not "choose" to become one of the most distrusted segments of the US population (according to numerous studies). its much easier to believe this life has some ultimate plan. it is a lot easier to believe that life will go on when you die. its much easier to NOT educate yourself about logic, superstitions, other religions, it much easier NOT to read the vile, hateful chapters in the bible. it is a lot easier to remain in the closet about my lack of belief even to some of my closest friends. belief is easy... was easy. but once you embrace that doubt all believers have, it becomes much, much easier. the world makes much more sense to me now.

if I "chose" anything, it was a choice to be honest with my biggest critic, myself, and admit and ultimately embrace the obvious: that the world makes much more sense when you realize its just you against the universe.

so i made a "choice" to be honest. the logical result of that it atheism.

quote:

Originally posted by Jankinonya:

quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
Keep in mind that most if nor all of us atheists werwonw believers. We cwrtunly feel tour pain.

That said, exactly how mug awe we allowed to disagree over the existance of your invisible auperman?

quote:

hahahahahaha shall I translate that for you?

I am going to give it whack because I think its worth making clear.

"Keep in mind that most if not all of us atheist were once believers. We certainly feel your pain.

That said, exactly how much are we allowed to disagree over the existence of your invisible superman?"

I have been wondering the same thing myself.

quote:

tank you. yow are hired ass my transwator.

Ya' know...if you read this after 5 shots-O-RUM...you have no trouble understanding it at all.

quote:

Originally posted by b50m:
Great advice butter, only when we 'fight back' we are hit with not being a good "Christian".

completely untrue. take the example of VP or HOD. ive never seen them (or heck, you either) be a "bad christian. perhaps a little unversed in some bacis logical concepts but ive never seen you guys supporting the more hateful, judgemental crap that comes from the fundies. the only people i see attacked rather disrespectfully on a regular basis are the fundy idiots.

now when you post something ignorant such as that article you posted not long ago, ex[ect to be chastized over it. ex[pect to ahve some things explained to you in a very direct manner. if you can't take the criticize, avoid posting ignorant stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by Jennifer:
And Bill, about the fourth time now, give me a list of an atheists "religious" beliefs.

Hi Jennifer,

Let me see:

1. Atheists BELIEVE that God does not exist.

2. Atheists BELIEVE in Darwinian Evolution.

3. Atheists BELIEVE science is god.

4. Atheists BELIEVE there is no eternal life.

5. Atheists BELIEVE that Christians are stupid!

These are the atheist belief system; therefore, their religion.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

1. no. we do NOT believe gods exist. all gos, any gods.
2. no, many of us "accept" that it is the best explanation for all the evidence. most of us would readily accept another premise if enough evidence is presented to overturn it.

3. stupid. just plain stupid, ignorant, and an affront to logic. i (we>?) believe science is the best tool we humans have invented to discern reality. if a better tool come along, we would readily toss science away and accept the new tool.
4. no, we do NOT beleive there is any sort of existance after our brains power down but are willing to accept evidence to change our minds if some is presented.
5. well, yes, some of you certainly are just plain stupid but most aren't. i don't consider you to be a "stupid" man butmany of your beliefs are demonstrably stupid. when you have to struggle so transparently to avoid to find wasy of ignoring very basic scientific concepts, one can only conclude that you are stupid and/or delusional.

quote:

Originally posted by A. Robustus:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
...atheists know that no god exists...
...we know there isn't an eternal life...


Jennifer,
We can't know with a 100% certainty that there are no gods or some kind of afterlife.
However, to BG, denying that Santa or tooth fairies exist is also the definition of a religion. To BG, bald is a hair color. His opinion on these matters isn't worth the electrons with which to respond.
[/SOAPBOX]

yeah, atheists must be a little careful about claiming to "know" anything in mixed company. but we can be excused. in the common vernacular, when atheists claim to "know" anyhting, we are claiming to "know something as much as something can be known."

jennifer can be excused for the occasional slip of claiming knowledge. most rational people would safely conclude that she meant "provisional" knowledge. i "know" a god and afterlife doesn't exist as much as i can "know" anything about reality. that knowledge is subject to change based on evidence to the contrary.

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:
.... here i sit, mostly in the back ground.
watching.
waiting.
for someone to open an interesting topic.

we have Bill. whining and shouting about homosexuals and sola whatevers, trying to explain to all of us how no one but he is correct.

then we have NSNS and Unob, trying to explain to all of us that there is no god, what a silly idea. the two people who wandered into this forum and upset a simple balance we'd found between athiest and faithful.

and that confuses me. why? why would they wander in, find a reasonable peace established between ingelligent people, and do their best to make sure that peace no longer exists.
unless they can't accept the idea that people don't crawl by their words. is that the problem? some people are worshiping God and not hanging on their every word?
or is their life so empty they must go so far out of their way to cause conflict between people?

i don't mean belief or lack thereof,
i mean, don't they have anything better to do that to start petty schoolyard squabbles?
the only life they have is wandering into places populated by the faithful and trying to kick up a ruckus..
how childish and pathetic.

OH NOO.. NOOO you CAN'T think there is a GAWD!... with his Son Jebus! no one who is smart n stuff could ever believe in JEBUS!!
we know , cause we call spell it JEBUS and make fun of GAWD so that means we're really smart.

sorry.

you wander into the religion forum, and you do your best to create a ruckus, and show us all how smart you all are, and how you're so smart you aren't fooled by the great sky fairy story.

yeah.. well. all i can is you aren't smart enough or eleoquent enough or clever enough to remove the faith you've found in front of you.

regardless of what you've said or the cute little videos you've posted, i still believe. dawkins is irrelevent. we've seen him. we've heard him. and yet, he remains unimportant.
VP still is a catholic.
and you are still nothing.

now, if you're done, we'd like to go back to making fun of Fundies like bill, and trying to find some reasonable middle ground where we can converse without insulting each other.

we were doing just fine with that without you.

we'll continue doing just fine once you're gone.

Nagel- I can't speak for the other non-believers, but I myself was never trying to create a ruckus when I got here. I became interested in this forum shortly after I moved here from up north.
I met people when I got here who were so immersed in religion and so fervent about it that it appeared to be affecting every aspect of their lives up to the point where they purposely ignored logic and common sense as it applied to everyday living.

It felt kinda like I'd passed out and woke up later in a place full of drones just mindlessly following "the supreme leader." Y'know-like maybe I'd suddenly ended up in North Korea or someplace.

I wanted to get an idea of why people would so fervently believe in something that makes so little sense to me.

Make no mistake-it IS a real shooting war in places between believers and heathens. Always has been, always will be. Let me remind you of The Crusades. True believers' logic is one of "convert or destroy." There is no middle ground. You either follow them and their god or you are the enemy and enemies must be destroyed.
I cite the current goings-on in the Middle East as a prime example.
I personally believe that BeeG is one or two twists of the turban short of grabbing a rusty AK-47 and opening up a can-o'-jihad on everybody-believers and non-believers alike.

I have found, though that many believers around here are of the vanilla-type. Younger folks especially because they've not had their heads bent all their lives.
A conversation between two kids I overheard on my bus recently went something like this:

KID #1: "I love Jesus!"
KID #2: "I love Jesus more than YOU do!"
KID #1: "No you don't! When I get to heaven I'm not saving you a seat 'cause you're gonna burn in hell, you stupid f#%@in' b#tch!"

*facepalm*

So much for going in peace, eh? Apparently even some of the believers are having trouble grasping the concept. A few more years of indoctrination may fix that but I doubt it. I still meet adults-"Righteous Christians" who still think like that.

"Believe and follow or you will be destroyed because my god will kick your heathen ass-and if he happens to be too busy at the time-I'll do it for him because I have that authority. He said so."

WTF!!?? These are "good christian values????"

Thanks, but no thanks.

I don't want to convert anybody to atheism. I had no idea who Hitchens or Dawkins was before I got here and I don't need their approval to believe like I do. I could care less what you believe in or not. That's YOUR problem. I just don't subscribe to the whole "supernatural, all-powerful being" idea myself. Religion, to me doesn't make any sense.
It is, as the character Spock from Star Trek would say "highly illogical."

It IS however a helluva racket.

"YESSSS! DO YOU BELIEVE IT!? We wouldn't buy it but if YOU believe-then SCREW it! Just keep putting money in the plate!"

Nice work if ya can get it, I guess. Kinda wraps that whole money-power-status thing into one nice neat lil' package. AND you get to sleep in late.

Anyways, back to the original thing...

I didn't come here to start a ruckus-I only get nasty when the god-bots start telling me how wrong I am for not believing and about how I'm going to burn in hell.

For the record-THEY drew first blood...And I just LOVE a good brawl once inna while. It keeps life interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by Road Puppy:

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:
.... here i sit, mostly in the back ground.
watching.
waiting.
for someone to open an interesting topic.

we have Bill. whining and shouting about homosexuals and sola whatevers, trying to explain to all of us how no one but he is correct.

then we have NSNS and Unob, trying to explain to all of us that there is no god, what a silly idea. the two people who wandered into this forum and upset a simple balance we'd found between athiest and faithful.

and that confuses me. why? why would they wander in, find a reasonable peace established between ingelligent people, and do their best to make sure that peace no longer exists.
unless they can't accept the idea that people don't crawl by their words. is that the problem? some people are worshiping God and not hanging on their every word?
or is their life so empty they must go so far out of their way to cause conflict between people?

i don't mean belief or lack thereof,
i mean, don't they have anything better to do that to start petty schoolyard squabbles?
the only life they have is wandering into places populated by the faithful and trying to kick up a ruckus..
how childish and pathetic.

OH NOO.. NOOO you CAN'T think there is a GAWD!... with his Son Jebus! no one who is smart n stuff could ever believe in JEBUS!!
we know , cause we call spell it JEBUS and make fun of GAWD so that means we're really smart.

sorry.

you wander into the religion forum, and you do your best to create a ruckus, and show us all how smart you all are, and how you're so smart you aren't fooled by the great sky fairy story.

yeah.. well. all i can is you aren't smart enough or eleoquent enough or clever enough to remove the faith you've found in front of you.

regardless of what you've said or the cute little videos you've posted, i still believe. dawkins is irrelevent. we've seen him. we've heard him. and yet, he remains unimportant.
VP still is a catholic.
and you are still nothing.

now, if you're done, we'd like to go back to making fun of Fundies like bill, and trying to find some reasonable middle ground where we can converse without insulting each other.

we were doing just fine with that without you.

we'll continue doing just fine once you're gone.

Nagel- I can't speak for the other non-believers, but I myself was never trying to create a ruckus when I got here. I became interested in this forum shortly after I moved here from up north.
I met people when I got here who were so immersed in religion and so fervent about it that it appeared to be affecting every aspect of their lives up to the point where they purposely ignored logic and common sense as it applied to everyday living.

It felt kinda like I'd passed out and woke up later in a place full of drones just mindlessly following "the supreme leader." Y'know-like maybe I'd suddenly ended up in North Korea or someplace.

I wanted to get an idea of why people would so fervently believe in something that makes so little sense to me.

Make no mistake-it IS a real shooting war in places between believers and heathens. Always has been, always will be. Let me remind you of The Crusades. True believers' logic is one of "convert or destroy." There is no middle ground. You either follow them and their god or you are the enemy and enemies must be destroyed.
I cite the current goings-on in the Middle East as a prime example.
I personally believe that BeeG is one or two twists of the turban short of grabbing a rusty AK-47 and opening up a can-o'-jihad on everybody-believers and non-believers alike.

I have found, though that many believers around here are of the vanilla-type. Younger folks especially because they've not had their heads bent all their lives.
A conversation between two kids I overheard on my bus recently went something like this:

KID #1: "I love Jesus!"
KID #2: "I love Jesus more than YOU do!"
KID #1: "No you don't! When I get to heaven I'm not saving you a seat 'cause you're gonna burn in hell, you stupid f#%@in' b#tch!"

*facepalm*

So much for going in peace, eh? Apparently even some of the believers are having trouble grasping the concept. A few more years of indoctrination may fix that but I doubt it. I still meet adults-"Righteous Christians" who still think like that.

"Believe and follow or you will be destroyed because my god will kick your heathen ass-and if he happens to be too busy at the time-I'll do it for him because I have that authority. He said so."

WTF!!?? These are "good christian values????"

Thanks, but no thanks.

I don't want to convert anybody to atheism. I had no idea who Hitchens or Dawkins was before I got here and I don't need their approval to believe like I do. I could care less what you believe in or not. That's YOUR problem. I just don't subscribe to the whole "supernatural, all-powerful being" idea myself. Religion, to me doesn't make any sense.
It is, as the character Spock from Star Trek would say "highly illogical."

It IS however a helluva racket.

"YESSSS! DO YOU BELIEVE IT!? We wouldn't buy it but if YOU believe-then SCREW it! Just keep putting money in the plate!"

Nice work if ya can get it, I guess. Kinda wraps that whole money-power-status thing into one nice neat lil' package. AND you get to sleep in late.

Anyways, back to the original thing...

I didn't come here to start a ruckus-I only get nasty when the god-bots start telling me how wrong I am for not believing and about how I'm going to burn in hell.



For the record-THEY drew first blood...And I just LOVE a good brawl once inna while. It keeps life interesting.

Pup,

Are you sure you are up to this task of living here in the South?

quote:

Originally posted by Unobtanium:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by Jennifer:
And Bill, about the fourth time now, give me a list of an atheists "religious" beliefs.

Hi Jennifer,

Let me see:

1. Atheists BELIEVE that God does not exist.

2. Atheists BELIEVE in Darwinian Evolution.

3. Atheists BELIEVE science is god.

4. Atheists BELIEVE there is no eternal life.

5. Atheists BELIEVE that Christians are stupid!

These are the atheist belief system; therefore, their religion.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

1. no. we do NOT believe gods exist. all gos, any gods.
2. no, many of us "accept" that it is the best explanation for all the evidence. most of us would readily accept another premise if enough evidence is presented to overturn it.

3. stupid. just plain stupid, ignorant, and an affront to logic. i (we>?) believe science is the best tool we humans have invented to discern reality. if a better tool come along, we would readily toss science away and accept the new tool.
4. no, we do NOT beleive there is any sort of existance after our brains power down but are willing to accept evidence to change our minds if some is presented.
5. well, yes, some of you certainly are just plain stupid but most aren't. i don't consider you to be a "stupid" man butmany of your beliefs are demonstrably stupid. when you have to struggle so transparently to avoid to find wasy of ignoring very basic scientific concepts, one can only conclude that you are stupid and/or delusional.

Hi Jennifer,

There you are! You do have a belief system -- just as you have stated so eloquently. Therefore, your atheism is a RELIGION. Welcome to the world of religions.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Jennifer, Unobtanium,

It is pointless to discuss this subject with him. He has the same lame answer every
time.

I could seriously care less if he or anyone else thinks I have a religion. He can label it how ever he wants to, doesn't make it true.


I bless you Bill.

Notice bill never answers a question? He seems unable to grasp the definition of religion, but for some reason in his mind he's the all knowing one. LOL. Wonder which deity atheists worship.

quote:

Originally posted by Jennifer:
Notice bill never answers a question? He seems unable to grasp the definition of religion, but for some reason in his mind he's the all knowing one. LOL. Wonder which deity atheists worship.

Jen

Looks like B.gray thinks he's the center of the T.D. world.

He's talking down to you.

Brick.

quote:

Originally posted by Brick:

quote:

Originally posted by Jennifer:
Notice bill never answers a question? He seems unable to grasp the definition of religion, but for some reason in his mind he's the all knowing one. LOL. Wonder which deity atheists worship.

Jen

Looks like B.gray thinks he's the center of the T.D. world.

He's talking down to you.

Brick.

He might be trying to talk down to me, but he isn't achieving his goal. Bill is a legend in his mind only. His attempting to "talk down" to someone is just his way of avoiding the fact he has no rational answer to the questions.

quote:

Originally posted by Unobtanium:

i would be beyond interested in your experience. i simply cannot imagine re-believing in santa and would be fascinated at how someone could re-conclude his existence.

it's in this forum someplace.. i think it's a thread started by Jank, but it's be a bit so i'm not sure.

quote:

it is impossible for me to believe that you were once an atheist. i can imagine that some atheists are "atheist ebcause they "hate god,." that makes absolutely no sense but i've heard of that before. but an atheist is an atheist because he has looked at the evidnece and finds it lacking. or he has educated himself on ratinoal ways that "all those stars up there" could come into existance. speaking only for myself (but im nearly certain i also speak for every other atheist on this forum) im an atheist because i finally admitted the truth to myself. it had lurked deep down for a long time but i did not want to admit to myself that i ate babies and worshipped satan as i was taught.

but i gathered enough courage to admit it to myself and am a much better person for it..... except for the baby eating thing and the devil worship. baby meat is too tough and im too old for those all night demon orgies.

well, i can't much help what you believe, one way or the other.
i spent a long long time ... from about age 13-14 ish until febuarary 1996 certain god was a fallacy. it started out as anger, but the anger led to a seeking for information, not just blunt denial because i was mad. the primary tool i used to look for God was, in fact, the bible, and it convinced me that the whole book was fantasy, except for a few accounts of things witnessed that wern't understood, ergo they must be miricles, ergo it must be god.
i still have little belief in the bible, btw. to much of it is either clearly made up by the people in power in an attempt to stay in power. the rest is mistaken accounts, pure fantasy, or morality stories to try and show people how to not be jerks.

i was given a chance to change my mind
i do believe in god, for my own personal reasons, but those reasons have nothing at all to do with the bible.

but as a suggestion? try maranating in adolphs meat tenderizer and soy sauce for abotu an hour prior to grilling.
the other bit i can't help with except to remind you to not bend over.

quote:

it is not a choice! see? it is this kind of ignorance that causes some atheists to get a little tizzy.

sorry.. 'choice' was the only word i could think of that even remotly applied.
i don't 'choose' to believe in god either, so i understand your object to the word, but i couldn't think of another word to use in it's place.
however, it wasn't ignorance... not as far as you being athiest goes.. just a failure in my internal thesarus.

if you can think of another word that has the same basic meaning as i was intending, by all means, use it in place of 'choice'.
gay people don't choose to be gay, but i do at times use the phrase 'choice of lifestyle' just because of a lack of an alternative.

Jen's right. When you're flying high, you can't be talked down to.

Soar on, Jen.

nsns

quote:

Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
Jen's right. When you're flying high, you can't be talked down to.

Soar on, Jen.

nsns

Hopefully not by anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by Jennifer:
Notice bill never answers a question? He seems unable to grasp the definition of religion, but for some reason in his mind he's the all knowing one. LOL. Wonder which deity atheists worship.

HI JEN, THAT IS EASY! - THEMSELVES AND THE WORLD!

quote:

Originally posted by Jennifer:
Bill, I said a list of "RELIGIOUS" beliefs. You said atheism was a religion. It isn't.

Atheists BELIEVE science is god.
Not true: Atheists do not believe in a god.

Atheists BELIEVE that Christians are stupid!
Not all of them.

Atheists BELIEVE that God does not exist.
No, atheists know that no god exists.

Atheists BELIEVE there is no eternal life.
Again, not a belief, we know there isn't an eternal life.

RE: number 3.

Prove it, please?
if you cannot PROOVE it, then you don't KNOW it. it's just a guess or an assumption... a belief

that being said, no, in most cases, atheism isn't a 'religion'.

but in some cases, some people cling to their sure belief that god isn't there just the same as a baptist clings to their belief that he is.

i've met athiest who didn't "believe" there was no god. they just plain old didnt' care. not interested. they thought that the evidence gave them enough reason to think that he wasn't real, so they wrote the idea off and don't bother debating it.

but, as to the allegation that athism is a variety of religion, the basis for that is this:

you cannot prove, demonstrably, with evidence, without question, that there is no god. there is no solid fact of the absence of a creator.
yet you are certain there isn't one. therefore that is faith in a lack of god.. belief in his non-existance.. so to some people that constitutes a form of religion.

me, i don't care. religion or not.. you call it what you like. i'll call it what i like
sine we are no longer worrying about being polite and respectful, this could get interesting

thenagel,

Philosophically speaking, we cannot "know" anything with absolute certainty. We can be fooled by the senses with which we gauge reality.

Those senses, however, serve us pretty well, and we have certain knowledge that is beyond all but the most outrageous exception. We know that gravity will pull down every football that is kicked. We don't have to philosophically qualify that knowledge every time we say it.

Do you know for a fact that Santa Claus does not exist? I do. I could be proven wrong, but we both know the likelihood of that is exceeding small. It is, literally, .000000...0001% likely that I am wrong. In circumstances like this one, we are justified in expressing knowledge.

Jennifer is justified in her expression. There is zero evidence for god.

What is much more likely than the existence of god is that we humans, in our infancy as a species, and owing to our obsessive need to see patterns, invented the gods to explain the inexplicable.

God has become a sort of super-meme. But, like the existence of real witchcraft, that is fading. The sooner it fades to insignificance, the more likely we are to succeed as a species and realize the flower of our potential.

bjbg

quote:

me, i don't care. religion or not.. you call it what you like. i'll call it what i like
sine we are no longer worrying about being polite and respectful, this could get interesting

Here's the "rub". A "christian" will tell you there is NO doubt, no questioning, they know with all their heart there IS a god. An atheist says the same about knowing there ISN'T a god and that's when a "christian" starts the doubletalk, and trying to "trick" an atheist into saying there is or "could be" a god. So get as impolite and disrespectful as you wish, and I will respond in kind. But understand, it does not make you look clever or smart, or make me inclined to believe in a god. It just shows how low a so called "christian" will go. You aren't interested in knowing an atheist as a person, you just want to insult and try to scare them with hell, and you can't for the life of you believe that we just don't believe in hell. You might as well tell us the "boogeyman" will get us.

Don't tell me you don't believe in the booegyman

Brick

Let’s say I took you to a door. On the other side of the door there was a pitch black room.
I told you there was someone else in the room, but it IS pitch black. You haven’t seen them, so you just have to take my word for it.
I place you in the room. You can’t see anything. Remember, it’s pitch black.
Is there anyone else in the room?
You call out, but no one answers. Does this mean there is no one else in the room?
You THINK you hear someone breath. Are you sure?
Are you positive? They didn’t answer when you called out...but did they have to? You have to decide if anyone else is in the room.
Would you bet your life that there is no one else in the room?

quote:

Originally posted by Brick:
Don't tell me you don't believe in the booegyman

Brick

Only the human ones.

quote:

Originally posted by CageTheElephant:
Let’s say I took you to a door. On the other side of the door there was a pitch black room.
I told you there was someone else in the room, but it IS pitch black. You haven’t seen them, so you just have to take my word for it.
I place you in the room. You can’t see anything. Remember, it’s pitch black.
Is there anyone else in the room?
You call out, but no one answers. Does this mean there is no one else in the room?
You THINK you hear someone breath. Are you sure?
Are you positive? They didn’t answer when you called out...but did they have to? You have to decide if anyone else is in the room.
Would you bet your life that there is no one else in the room?

Is that the basis of your belief? That there might be someone in the room? Someone you can't see, who does not answer your ahoy, someone you cannot smell or hear?

If the person in the dark room was supposed to love me and protect me, I'd expect some sort of clue.


bjbg

quote:

Is that the basis of your belief? That there might be someone in the room? Someone you can't see, who does not answer your ahoy, someone you cannot smell or hear?

If the person in the dark room was supposed to love me and protect me, I'd expect some sort of clue.


bjbg

This has nothing to do with my belief. It is a simple question. From what I gather, this is what the Christians base their belief on. Then you, the atheists, state POSITIVELY there is no god. Would you bet your life no one was in the room?

quote:

Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:

quote:

Originally posted by CageTheElephant:
Let’s say I took you to a door. On the other side of the door there was a pitch black room.
I told you there was someone else in the room, but it IS pitch black. You haven’t seen them, so you just have to take my word for it.
I place you in the room. You can’t see anything. Remember, it’s pitch black.
Is there anyone else in the room?
You call out, but no one answers. Does this mean there is no one else in the room?
You THINK you hear someone breath. Are you sure?
Are you positive? They didn’t answer when you called out...but did they have to? You have to decide if anyone else is in the room.
Would you bet your life that there is no one else in the room?

Is that the basis of your belief? That there might be someone in the room? Someone you can't see, who does not answer your ahoy, someone you cannot smell or hear?

If the person in the dark room was supposed to love me and protect me, I'd expect some sort of clue.


bjbg

I think it's the photographer in the dark room.

quote:

Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

My dear thenagel,

HEY!

quote:

One or two of our friends have mentioned that I have been here longer than you. True enough. I've put forth my point of view, reasonably well laid out, if I do say so myself, for everyone's consideration. I haven't traipsed in here, destroying any sort of equilibrium. I am the equilibrium.

ROFL... and so humble.
i have no idea how long you've been here. i don't care. you weren't here when i found this forum. that was the information i had. ok, so you were here for a long time before i got here, and you went away for some reason or another. i was suppose to magically know this how?
this neither impresses nor intrests me. so what?
it doesn't change the fact that you were absent. we had polite discussion. you show up, and they stopped because you throw in insults and potshots every possible chance.
perhaps it was the same when you were here last. perhaps not. don't care.
lemmie as you this, then.
why is it not possible for you to have a discussion on the subject of religion without finding it necessary to remind people they are idiots to believe in god?
are you so vunerable that it's not only necessary for you to express your thoughts on the topic, but that you must try and tear down anyone who doesn't agree with you?

quote:

I want to give people reason to think.

good. so do i. i like it when people think for themselves. drones annoy me. sheep make me crazy.
personally, i don't care whether or not someone believes in God.. or Allah.. or the FSM, or Xenu.. or nothing at all... as long as they do it with intention and not just because they'd been told to, or are just afraid not to.

quote:

I find it amusing that you think Dawkins is irrelevant.

i'm glad. i always try for the comic relief position when i am able. your amusment amuses me.
nevertheless, i still think he is both irrelevent and insignificant.
i'd never heard of him before bill gray mentioned his name once a long time ago when he was claiming that i was you in disguise.
i looked him up. he really isn't that interesting.
and in, say, 100 years, the catholic church will still be here. people will still be praying and being baptised. No one will remember who dawkins was.
so yes, in the long run, irrelevent and insignificant.

quote:

His books, especially "The God Delusion", sell by the millions around the world. They're translated into dozens of languages. He speaks to packed houses everywhere he goes. Let's hear about your latest book.

Who's irrelevant now? Shall I not suggest videos because you find them abrasive? Sorry. Don't click on them, then. We live in the video age. Audio/visual input still impacts us humans more than the written word. Look for another video suggestion soon.

ROFL.. THAT'S your argument? i haven't written some books means i'm irrelevent? how many have you written?
besides.. i never said i WAS relevent i just said that to the pope and the catholic church, he probably wasn't relevent either. he certainly isn't to me.

i've seen a couple of the videos you've posts, and some that others have posted.
mostly i don't bother. not because they are abrasive, but because they aren't interestign to me. i don't watch videos about the best way to repot begonias either. it's just not something i'm interested in.
i know that if it's a video from you, then it's going to be someone ranting against the idea that god could ever be real.
seen it, heard it, read it, no need to see it hear it or read it again. it's not like the idea is new, or anyone has come up with some new fascinating concept that adds moe weight against the existance of god.

promise me something i haven't seen or heard before and i'll watch it. but i have no desire to waste my time watchign someone present an idea that i heard about 20 years ago. or 5 years ago.

and for the record, i'm far more interested in the written word. videos are for funny or for music or for movies or for porn.
maybe you are more audio/visually centered than textually, but you're more likely to get me to read something you find interesting than to watching something.

quote:

I'm not done. I've just begun. When atheists have a political voice in the South, perhaps I'll be done then. When atheists are regarded in society at large as having a legitimate point of view, which we do, maybe then I'll be done.

personally, i hope you pull it off soon.
the idea of fundies running the goverment scares the crap out of me.
of course you have a legitimate point of view. i wouldn't dream of telling you that you don't.
i might hint, however, that other peoples views are also legitimate.

{QUOTE]
Expect me.


nsns[/QUOTE]

expect you? good lord, man i've had you up to the eyebrows for decades. you're every where. heck, i used to BE you, only more angry and acctually far more obnoxious and insulting

/does james earl jones impression/

I am the equilibrium! EXPECT ME!!

jeeez. dude, get a grip. i hope i wasn't suposed to be impressed.
Jank impresses me. you're a dime a dozen.

quote:

Originally posted by CageTheElephant:

Would you bet your life that there is no one else in the room?

Huh..with no more proof than your word on the presense of another person, I would not want to bet my life either way.

I think I would just kick you in the chin and run like hell before you could push me in the dark room.

quote:

Originally posted by Road Puppy:
Nagel- I can't speak for the other non-believers, but I myself was never trying to create a ruckus when I got here. I became interested in this forum shortly after I moved here from up north.
I met people when I got here who were so immersed in religion and so fervent about it that it appeared to be affecting every aspect of their lives up to the point where they purposely ignored logic and common sense as it applied to everyday living.

some peopel are sheep

no Puppy, you never caused any kind of ruckus. you ask valid, fair questions, and then often ask valid fair follow ups about the answers fro mthe first question lol
at no point have i ever felt insulted by you. you were looking for info. and explanations. and reasoning. and at time you also pointed out quite a few flaws here and there in all of the answer, explanations and reasonings.

but you never phrased things to insult the people you were talking to.

quote:

Make no mistake-it IS a real shooting war in places between believers and heathens. Always has been, always will be. Let me remind you of The Crusades. True believers' logic

yeah, i know. but we're just talking here. i don't see why it's necessary to try for a textual bodycount.

quote:

KID #1: "I love Jesus!"
KID #2: "I love Jesus more than YOU do!"
KID #1: "No you don't! When I get to heaven I'm not saving you a seat 'cause you're gonna burn in hell, you stupid f#%@in' b#tch!"

*facepalm*

no argument - there are total dipwads in the believers side. people who believe because they were told to. because they are afraid not to. they believe because their daddy did and his daddy did, and you bet their kids are gonan believe as well.
people believe (or don't) for the same reason most people vote. and with no more ingellegent thought and consideration than people use to vote.
sheep comes in all varieties

quote:

For the record-THEY drew first blood...And I just LOVE a good brawl once inna while. It keeps life interesting.

i have 2 teen kids and a wife. i don't need any any more 'interesting' in my life i need mellow, relaxing and boring.
(ok, not true, but kinda funny)

ok.. they drew first blood.
so the other side fires back.
so the other side fires back.
so the other side fires back.
so the other side fires back.
so the other side fires back.
so the other side fires back.
so the other side fires back.
so the other side fires back.
so the other side fires back.
....etc

*facepalm*

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:

quote:

Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

My dear thenagel,

HEY!

quote:

One or two of our friends have mentioned that I have been here longer than you. True enough. I've put forth my point of view, reasonably well laid out, if I do say so myself, for everyone's consideration. I haven't traipsed in here, destroying any sort of equilibrium. I am the equilibrium.

ROFL... and so humble.
i have no idea how long you've been here. i don't care. you weren't here when i found this forum. that was the information i had. ok, so you were here for a long time before i got here, and you went away for some reason or another. i was suppose to magically know this how?
this neither impresses nor intrests me. so what?
it doesn't change the fact that you were absent. we had polite discussion. you show up, and they stopped because you throw in insults and potshots every possible chance.
perhaps it was the same when you were here last. perhaps not. don't care.
lemmie as you this, then.
why is it not possible for you to have a discussion on the subject of religion without finding it necessary to remind people they are idiots to believe in god?
are you so vunerable that it's not only necessary for you to express your thoughts on the topic, but that you must try and tear down anyone who doesn't agree with you?

quote:

I want to give people reason to think.

good. so do i. i like it when people think for themselves. drones annoy me. sheep make me crazy.
personally, i don't care whether or not someone believes in God.. or Allah.. or the FSM, or Xenu.. or nothing at all... as long as they do it with intention and not just because they'd been told to, or are just afraid not to.

quote:

I find it amusing that you think Dawkins is irrelevant.

i'm glad. i always try for the comic relief position when i am able. your amusment amuses me.
nevertheless, i still think he is both irrelevent and insignificant.
i'd never heard of him before bill gray mentioned his name once a long time ago when he was claiming that i was you in disguise.
i looked him up. he really isn't that interesting.
and in, say, 100 years, the catholic church will still be here. people will still be praying and being baptised. No one will remember who dawkins was.
so yes, in the long run, irrelevent and insignificant.

quote:

His books, especially "The God Delusion", sell by the millions around the world. They're translated into dozens of languages. He speaks to packed houses everywhere he goes. Let's hear about your latest book.

Who's irrelevant now? Shall I not suggest videos because you find them abrasive? Sorry. Don't click on them, then. We live in the video age. Audio/visual input still impacts us humans more than the written word. Look for another video suggestion soon.

ROFL.. THAT'S your argument? i haven't written some books means i'm irrelevent? how many have you written?
besides.. i never said i WAS relevent i just said that to the pope and the catholic church, he probably wasn't relevent either. he certainly isn't to me.

i've seen a couple of the videos you've posts, and some that others have posted.
mostly i don't bother. not because they are abrasive, but because they aren't interestign to me. i don't watch videos about the best way to repot begonias either. it's just not something i'm interested in.
i know that if it's a video from you, then it's going to be someone ranting against the idea that god could ever be real.
seen it, heard it, read it, no need to see it hear it or read it again. it's not like the idea is new, or anyone has come up with some new fascinating concept that adds moe weight against the existance of god.

promise me something i haven't seen or heard before and i'll watch it. but i have no desire to waste my time watchign someone present an idea that i heard about 20 years ago. or 5 years ago.

and for the record, i'm far more interested in the written word. videos are for funny or for music or for movies or for porn.
maybe you are more audio/visually centered than textually, but you're more likely to get me to read something you find interesting than to watching something.

quote:

I'm not done. I've just begun. When atheists have a political voice in the South, perhaps I'll be done then. When atheists are regarded in society at large as having a legitimate point of view, which we do, maybe then I'll be done.

personally, i hope you pull it off soon.
the idea of fundies running the goverment scares the crap out of me.
of course you have a legitimate point of view. i wouldn't dream of telling you that you don't.
i might hint, however, that other peoples views are also legitimate.

{QUOTE]
Expect me.


nsns

expect you? good lord, man i've had you up to the eyebrows for decades. you're every where. heck, i used to BE you, only more angry and acctually far more obnoxious and insulting

/does james earl jones impression/

I am the equilibrium! EXPECT ME!!

jeeez. dude, get a grip. i hope i wasn't suposed to be impressed.
Jank impresses me. you're a dime a dozen.[/QUOTE]

For a dime/dozen guy, you deconstructed my post pretty thoroughly. Well done.

Did I call believers idiots? Sure, I can think of a couple, but in general? I don't think so.

Oh, Dawkins is entirely relevant to the Pope. Popey is scared to death of him. That's why he had to go to Britain and call atheists "Nazis". Of all people, he should know better.

You were never me. Sorry. You weren't.

nsns

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by CageTheElephant:

Would you bet your life that there is no one else in the room?


Huh..with no more proof than your word on the presense of another person, I would not want to bet my life either way.

I think I would just kick you in the chin and run like hell before you could push me in the dark room.

Jank, DO NOT PASS GO. DO NOT COLLECT $200!

OK, Cagey,

I would not bet my life on the proposition.

But your story is not in the least analogous to anything having to do with the gods.


nsns

quote:

Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:

Philosophically speaking, we cannot "know" anything with absolute certainty. We can be fooled by the senses with which we gauge reality.

Those senses, however, serve us pretty well, and we have certain knowledge that is beyond all but the most outrageous exception. We know that gravity will pull down every football that is kicked. We don't have to philosophically qualify that knowledge every time we say it.

Do you know for a fact that Santa Claus does not exist? I do. I could be proven wrong, but we both know the likelihood of that is exceeding small. It is, literally, .000000...0001% likely that I am wrong. In circumstances like this one, we are justified in expressing knowledge.

well, i have seen satalite photos of the north pole, seen no house, and i've been awake all night on christmas eve.
that give me to believe that santa, in fact, does not exist in a physical sense.
or at best, missed my house and is, in fact, homeless.

quote:

Jennifer is justified in her expression. There is zero evidence for god.

so lack of proof is lack of existance?

i wasn't speaking Philosophically. i meant literally, factually, scientifically.
Philosophically speaking, all of you people are imaginary, i am the only thing real, so what you believe doesn't matter.
oh, and i also have a cat that doesn't exist until i open the box.
i try not to open the box, because he really hates being in there and he barfs in my slippers when i let him out.
which i don't understand, because, Philosophically speaking, he isn't real either, so i must want him to barf in my slippers.

sorry. she said she KNEW god wasn't real.

i was just checking to see if she had acctual data, or if she was making assumptions.

one never knows. maybe one day some one really WILL be able to prove the non-existance of God.
or maybe He'll pop in and say Howdy. i'd liek thta one the most, because i'd like to see who drops from a coronary first, Dawkins or Bill Gray

quote:

OK, Cagey,

I would not bet my life on the proposition.

But your story is not in the least analogous to anything having to do with the gods.

That is correct, in a manner of speaking. When one says they KNOW that there is or isn't, they are wrong. It may seem trivial, but I am a stickler for words. You believe there is no god. I believe you are honest in your conviction. You believe there is a god. You are honest in your conviction. Anyone that states that they KNOW either is , well, wrong.

quote:

so lack of proof is lack of existance?

Lack of evidence indicates lack of existence, yes. Saying god is not real is not speculation, but a reasoned response to the evidence for his existence. God is a scientific question, after all.

Oh, I think if god appears tomorrow morning, he'll have more of a beef with BG than Dawkins. Dawkins is on record as saying he'd like to meet god. He has questions, you see.

BillGray, on the other hand, would have to explain all his lies.

Wouldn't you love to be there, with a hot dog and a cold drink?

nsns

bjbg[/QUOTE]


I think it's the photographer in the dark room.[/QUOTE] I suggest it was Professor Plum, in the Library, with the candlestick.

quote:

Originally posted by CageTheElephant:

quote:

OK, Cagey,

I would not bet my life on the proposition.

But your story is not in the least analogous to anything having to do with the gods.

That is correct, in a manner of speaking. When one says they KNOW that there is or isn't, they are wrong. It may seem trivial, but I am a stickler for words. You believe there is no god. I believe you are honest in your conviction. You believe there is a god. You are honest in your conviction. Anyone that states that they KNOW either is , well, wrong.

Cagey,

You're right in that ultimate certainty is unavailable. I mentioned that in a post above, I think.

However, we must draw certain conclusions from evidence. Try as we might, there is no evidence that dogs give birth to cats. We can say with certainty that it does not happen.

Your experiment with the dark room is much less certain. I have some evidence, your word, that someone is in the room. I have a lack of evidence in that I can't see or hear or smell him. It's a 50/50 proposition, nothing to bet one's life on. Either someone is there or not, and there's no way of knowing.

But god is not like that. The infinitesimal possibility of his existence does not give him 50/50 status. To say it does leads to the denial of all human reason and observation, and hence the stifling rejection of human knowledge that is nihilism.

It's Saturday night. Why are we doing this?

nsns