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Hi to my Forum Friends,

In an earlier discussion titled "VPLee123....Thank you!" -- I wrote, "We believe, from the Bible, that when a believer dies -- he/she is immediately in the presence of Jesus Christ and God the Father."

And, B50 asks me, "I thought you had to wait for the Rapture, Bill. So heaven immediately or not?"

Good question! Glad you asked. True, for all Christian believers, upon death, the next moment they are alive in the presence of Jesus Christ -- more alive than ever before. Our mortal bodies are in the grave; but, our spirit, the true essence of all people -- will have a great "Home Coming" celebration -- and all Christ believing loved ones and friends who have gone on before -- will be standing with Jesus Christ -- to greet us -- to welcome us home!

Yes, Jesus Christ is coming one day, a day no one knows. This is why we call it imminent, for it could happen at any moment -- or it might not happen for many years. We just have to be ready (Luke 12:40). His coming will be in the air, in the clouds, and He will call all Christian believers, His church, His Bride, to join Him in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). This is the Rapture.

For all believers who have died in Christ, i.e, died being believers in Jesus Christ -- their mortal bodies will be in the grave; but their spirits are with the Lord. For all non-believers, their mortal bodies are in the grave; but, their spirits are in the Torment side of Hades -- where they will stay until they are resurrected to stand before Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment.

These Christian believers whose bodies are in the grave will rise, be resurrected, first. Then, a split second later, we who are still alive will join them in the air to meet our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. At this time, we all will receive our immortal bodies and will be like Him -- not divine, but in our immortal bodies (1 John 3:2).

Now this is a point where many people, believers and non-believers, will ask, "Bill, that works for those who died and were buried. But, what about people who were cremated? What about people who were eaten by animals, by sharks, etc. -- their bodies no longer exist. Their bodies are ashes or part of animal or fish waste. How can they be raised from the grave to be Raptured?"

That is a very valid question. Yet, we are told in Luke 12:6-7, "Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God. Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows."

God created us; God knows every hair on our head (for some, just a memory); God knows every cell which makes up our bodies -- for He created those cells, those bodies -- so, I have no doubt that, in His omniscience, in His omnipotence -- He will have no trouble bringing together all the required elements to create our immortals bodies.

Jesus, when He ascended into heaven, was in His immortal body with the nail scars and the sword scar still evident. After His resurrection, but, before His ascension -- he was in His immortal body which closely resembled His older mortal body. This is why He could eat with His apostles after His resurrection (John 21:12-15). We believers will have such an immortal body also at the Rapture (1 John 3:2).

So, to clarify: For believers who have already died, their bodies are in the grave -- but, their essence, their spirit, is in heaven. When Christ returns to Rapture His church -- their bodies will rise from the grave, or wherever, and will become immortal bodies, once again reunited with their essence, their spirit.

Then, a brief moment later, we believers who are still alive when Christ returns in the air to Rapture His church will rise -- we will not taste death -- but, will go to meet Him in the air to gain our immortal bodies.

Is this described in the Bible? Yes, in 1 Corinthians 15:49-54 we learn that we, our bodies, will be changed in the twinkling of an eye -- pretty quick -- from mortal to immortal, i.e., our glorified bodies. We we be in our glorified bodies just like Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:49-54, "Just as we have borne the image of the earthy (mortal), we will also bear the image of the heavenly (immortal). Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."


And, in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, we are told that we believers who are still alive, will be CAUGHT UP to meet Christ, our Lord, in the air. In the Greek language, the English phrase "will be caught up" is the word "harpazo" meaning: "to snatch out or away."

When the Pope commissioned Jerome to translate the Bible into Latin, the language favored by the Roman Catholic church, the Greek word "harpazo" became the Latin word "rapiemur" -- from which we get the English transliteration RAPTURE. So, yes, the word "Rapture" -- the prophecy of the Rapture -- and the description of the Rapture -- are all in the Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."


Yes, B50, we have His, Jesus Christ's, promises of eternal life for all who believe (Matthew 19:29, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 3:36, John 4:14, John 5:24, John 6:40, John 6:47, John 6:54, John 10:28).

And, the apostle John writes to us in John 20:30-31, "Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

So, yes, eternal life in Christ is assured, by Jesus Christ Himself, for ALL who, by grace, through faith, believe in Him and receive His "free gift" of eternal life. Based upon His promises, we have eternal security in Him -- and whether we die before He comes to Rapture His church, or whether we are still alive -- ALL believers will be Raptured to be with Him forever.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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TheBill says
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So, to clarify: For believers who have already died, their bodies are in the grave -- but, their essence, their spirit, is in heaven. When Christ returns to Rapture His church -- their bodies will rise from the grave, or wherever, and will become immortal bodies, once again reunited with their essence, their spirit.



AHHHHHHHHH!!! ZOMBIES!!!!!!!!!
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Originally posted by thenagel:
TheBill says
quote:
So, to clarify: For believers who have already died, their bodies are in the grave -- but, their essence, their spirit, is in heaven. When Christ returns to Rapture His church -- their bodies will rise from the grave, or wherever, and will become immortal bodies, once again reunited with their essence, their spirit.

AHHHHHHHHH!!! ZOMBIES!!!!!!!!!

ONLY IN "YOUR" CHURCH! - YOU DO ATTEND A CHURCH, DON'T YOU?

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their mortal bodies are in the grave; but, their spirits are in the Torment side of Hades -- where they will stay until they are resurrected to stand before Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment.


That is what the Catholics call Purgatory, Bill.
Thanks for answering my question, you still did not answer VP's.
Hi B50,

In an earlier post, I wrote, "For all believers who have died in Christ, i.e, died being believers in Jesus Christ -- their mortal bodies will be in the grave; but their spirits are with the Lord. For all non-believers, their mortal bodies are in the grave; but, their spirits are in the Torment side of Hades -- where they will stay until they are resurrected to stand before Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment."

And, you tell me, "That is what the Catholics call Purgatory, Bill. . ."

You have tried to change what I wrote by taking a thought out of context; such as you did here when you quoted me as writing, "their mortal bodies are in the grave; but, their spirits are in the Torment side of Hades -- where they will stay until they are resurrected to stand before Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment" -- and then, relating it to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. Did you do this in an attempt to inflame VP and cause more dissention between us?

You left off the key phrase: "For all non-believers." And, I would never say that all Roman Catholics are non-believers -- just as I would never say that all Protestants are believers.

If a person has, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ -- believed, invited Jesus Christ to come into his heart and be Lord and Savior of his life; he/she has received His "free gift" of salvation -- that person is a Christian believer regardless of which church he/she attends.

So, B50, are you implying that ALL Roman Catholics are non-believers -- and this is why you equate Torment/Hades with their Purgatory?

No, my Friend, Torment/Hades is a real place. Because no one can be saved except through Jesus Christ, the Old Testament saints, i.e., believers (believing God's promise of a coming Messiah) -- upon death went into Paradise, the other side of Hades. Paradise is also called the Bosom of Abraham in Luke 16. The Paradise side of Hades and the Torment side were separated by an impassable division which no one could cross.

Jesus Christ died on the cross, was buried and went into Hades for three days, and presented Himself to those in Paradise as their Messiah (1 Peter 3:19). Then, He rose from the grave. The first thing He did was to lead those Old Testament saints out of the Hades Paradise and into the Heaven Paradise (Ephesians 4:8), where they wait for we New Testament saints to join them.

When Jesus did this, He hung a permanent "Out Of Business" sign on the Paradise sided of Hades. But, the Torment side of Hades is still "Open For Business" and gets new tenants daily.

Those Old Testament saints and we New Testament saints will receive our immortal bodies at the Rapture. And, we will be joined by Tribulation saints who are martyred for their faith during the seven year Tribulation. During the seven year Tribulation, while we are in heaven waiting to return with Jesus Christ to establish His Millennial Kingdom -- we will stand before Him at the Bema Seat Judgment (Romans 14:10-12, 2 Corinthians 5:10), a judgment of rewards or lack of rewards for all believers.

Then, we New Testament saints, all the Christian believers worldwide, starting from the Day of Pentecost until the day of the Rapture, will be wed to Jesus Christ (Revelation 19:6-9). We are the chosen Bride of Christ -- like the Jews are the chosen people of God. All of this happens during the seven years of the Tribulation while we who were Raptured are in heaven with our Lord.

During all this time, and even through the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom of Christ on earth -- non-believers are still waiting in Torment/Hades where, like the rich man in Luke 16, they would give all the fortunes of the world for one tiny drop of water on their lips. They will stay in Torment until they are resurrected at the end of the Millennial Kingdom (Revelation 20:5) -- to stand before Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment, a judgment of punishment (Revelation 20:11-15). At this judgment, Jesus Christ will allow them all to tell Him why they would not believe -- then, they will all be sent to the Lake of Fire, hell, to spend eternity with Satan.

The Roman Catholic's Purgatory is neither of these -- for it is not true. The concept of Purgatory is based upon the teaching of praying for the dead. And, in the early centuries, the practice of selling "indulgences" -- in other words, helping to buy a loved one out of Purgatory -- was rampant. Yet, we know from the Bible, that once a person dies -- there is no need to pray for that person any more. Pray for that person's family and friends, for they are in mourning for the loved one they lost. But, there is no need or reason to pray for a person who has died.

All people, believers and non-believers, will determine our eternal destination, i.e., whether we will spend eternity in the presence of God -- or whether we will spend eternity in the presence of Satan -- before we die. Until that last breath, a person can repent, ask Jesus Christ into his/her heart, and receive salvation through Jesus Christ. However, once a person has breathed his/her last breath in this mortal body -- his/her eternal fate is set in concrete.

No amount of prayer, or anything else, can change the status of that person after his/her last breath in this mortal body. This is Biblical; therefore the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory cannot be true. It is an adaptation of the pagan practice of praying for the dead found in world religions going back to and before early Judaism.

B50, my Friend, I pray this clears up any misunderstanding you may have regarding death for both believers and non-believers. And, from this, you can see why we Christian believers have been given the Commission to Go, Make disciples, Baptize them, Teach them (Matthew 28:19-20) and to be His witnesses in all the world (Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15).

For, you see, we who have been given the "free gift" of salvation "paid in full" by the blood of Jesus Christ for all who will believe; much is expected (Luke 12:48) and that includes sharing the Word of God, the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- with all the world.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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til that last breath, a person can repent, ask Jesus Christ into his/her heart, and receive salvation through Jesus Christ.


Whatever happened to make you forget the words of Peter when he was asked "men and brethren what shall we do?" He didn't say let Christ come into your heart. He replied " Repent and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (salvation)
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Originally posted by themax:
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til that last breath, a person can repent, ask Jesus Christ into his/her heart, and receive salvation through Jesus Christ.

Whatever happened to make you forget the words of Peter when he was asked "men and brethren what shall we do?" He didn't say let Christ come into your heart. He replied " Repent and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (salvation)

Hi Max,

Jesus Himself tells us, "He who believes HAS eternal life" (John 6:47).

I will take His promise as valid.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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and then, relating it to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. Did you do this in an attempt to inflame VP and cause more dissention between us?


Nope, it was to show you that those non believers or the ones whose fate has not been decided do wait for judgment Bill. You call it Torment, the Catholics call it Purgatory.
I was NOT making any call on the Catholic faith, simply pointing out the same place with a different name. You twisted it.
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Originally posted by b50m:
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Originally posted by Bill Gray:
You have tried to change what I wrote by taking a thought out of context; such as you did here when you quoted me as writing, "their mortal bodies are in the grave; but, their spirits are in the Torment side of Hades -- where they will stay until they are resurrected to stand before Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment" -- and then, relating it to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. Did you do this in an attempt to inflame VP and cause more dissention between us?

Nope, it was to show you that those non believers or the ones whose fate has not been decided do wait for judgment Bill. You call it Torment, the Catholics call it Purgatory. I was NOT making any call on the Catholic faith, simply pointing out the same place with a different name. You twisted it.

Hi B50,

You still have the wrong understanding of what the Roman Catholics call Purgatory. Their Purgatory is not for non-believers; but, only for believers who have unresolved sins (which is everyone) and they believe must do more works to make amends for the sins they had at death.

Torment/Hades is ONLY for non-believers and they can never have salvation -- for they died in their sins -- denying Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. So, for them, the future is to wait in Torment until they are resurrected for the Great White Throne Judgment. At this time, their resurrection, they will receive their immortal bodies. Then, they will stand before the Lord whom they had rejected in their mortal lives -- and will then be sent into hell, the Lake of Fire.

This is not what the Roman Catholics mean by Purgatory. In their Purgatory, people can work through their sins -- and people left behind, their family and friends, can pray for them and buy indulgences to shorten their time in Purgatory. And, eventually, all those in Purgatory will go to heaven. Non-believers, those who died denying Christ -- can never see heaven.

So, no, Torment/Hades and the Roman Catholic Purgatory are NOT the same place, but with different names. But, Torment/Hades is, indeed, a real place with real people in it -- and Purgatory is not real.

The Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory is not Biblical -- for the Bible teaches that the moment a believer dies, the next moment he/she is in heaven with Jesus Christ.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Originally posted by themax:
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Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Max, Jesus Himself tells us, "He who believes HAS eternal life" (John 6:47). I will take His promise as valid.

If you believe, then keep his commandments. All of them, not just the ones that seem right to you.

Hi Max,

We do not live under the Law, for the Law could not save anyone (Romans 2:20). We have passed from the Law and, since the Day of Pentecost, have lived in the Dispensation of Grace. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Am I a sinner? Yes, unfortunately, I am (Romans 3:23) -- but, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24). "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law" (Romans 3:28).

So, yes, I am a sinner -- but, when I became a believer I inherited Jesus Christ's declaration on the cross, "It is finished!" -- meaning that He has "paid in full" my sin debt to God and that now I am sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30) until, or for, the day of redemption.

When I became a Christian believer, I was indwelt by the Holy Spirit who sealed me until the day of redemption. He resides in me and covers me with the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Yes, I sin daily -- then, I am convicted by the Holy Spirit and I ask His forgiveness and do my best to not repeat this sin. But, if I fail, the Holy Spirit is there to convict me and to help me to repent -- again -- and, if necessary, again

Matthew 18:21-22, "Then Peter came and said to Him, 'Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?' Jesus said to him, 'I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.'"

Did Jesus mean that a person is to be forgiven only 490 times? No, this is a symbolic number meaning that a person should always be willing to forgive his brother or sister -- as many times as they "sincerely" seek forgiveness. And, Jesus Christ offers the same level of forgiveness to us when we "sincerely" repent and ask His forgiveness.

If a person is not convicted by the Holy Spirit when he/she sins -- we must wonder if the Holy Spirit is really resident -- of if there is a "for rent" or "vacancy" sign hanging on that person's heart.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Well Bill, it seems my idea was off, that's what happens when you only hear things and are not part of the church. Your ideas are off as well.



http://www.catholic.com/librar...ots_of_Purgatory.asp

The Roots of Purgatory


All Christians agree that we won’t be sinning in heaven. Sin and final glorification are utterly incompatible. Therefore, between the sinfulness of this life and the glories of heaven, we must be made pure. Between death and glory there is a purification.

Thus, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the ****ed" (CCC 1030–1).

The concept of an after-death purification from sin and the consequences of sin is also stated in the New Testament in passages such as 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32.

The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45) as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works, such as one which records that Adam will be in mourning "until the day of dispensing punishment in the last years, when I will turn his sorrow into joy" (The Life of Adam and Eve 46–7). Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.

Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine. As the quotes below from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning.

Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular "place" in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.
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Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine. As the quotes below from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning.


And I, for one, am SO thankful- because as we are now, and I imagine, when we die, no-one will be without sin. And certainly not worthy to stand in the Presence of God.
So I'm very happy that purgatory is a reality. Smiler
PS- Yes, Bill, that is exactly why we pray for the souls of the dead. And when I die? Please pray for me- shave off some of my sentence in purgatory. Thanks. SmilerVeep.
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Originally posted by themax:
Billy, I didn't say anything about keeping the old law. When Christ died on the cross the veil of the temple was split, meaning we no longer have to go through a high priest to speak with the Lord.

Hi Max,

Then, it is not clear what you did mean -- if not the Law? There is no Old Law and New Law. There was the Law given to Moses in the Old Testament for the people of Israel.

And, there is the Dispensation of Grace brought to us through Jesus Christ.

And, that is what I was addressing. If you had something else in mind; please tell me.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Originally posted by b50m:
Well Bill, it seems my idea was off, that's what happens when you only hear things and are not part of the church. Your ideas are off as well.

http://www.catholic.com/librar...ots_of_Purgatory.asp

The Roots of Purgatory

Hi B50,

You quote from a Roman Catholic web site -- and, do you really expect them to admit that their doctrine of Purgatory is a man-created teaching? Good luck!

You can probably find web sites which say Satan is god. And, I know you can find web sites which sing the praises of atheism and Darwinian Evolution. Doesn't make any of them true -- just show that there are many delusional folks out there is cyberland.

Please show me anywhere in the Bible that you can find Purgatory mentioned. I have shown you the Scripture passages which tell us that, the moment a person dies -- he/she goes directly into heaven. That is written in God's Word, authored by God. And, is not the man-created traditions of a human church.

But, I am curious. You are not Roman Catholic; you have stated that you are New Age/Wiccan and sometimes Christian (which is impossible, but, we will go along for the sake of this discussion) -- so, are you telling me that YOU believe in Purgatory?

Or, is this just another way that you can argue with Bill Gray? In other words, your excuse to be contentious. As I said, good luck!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Well Bill, do you use 'Answers in Genesis', which is a fundamentalist web site?

I have said I like to explore all religions and have Catholic friends.

You just said again, the moment a person dies they go to heaven.

Then you will modify that to say a believer goes to heaven, a non-believer goes to hell to wait for the rapture.

A person who sinned and forgot to say 'I'm sorry' must go to hell and gets no chance at the rapture.

Would that be right Bill?
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Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine. As the quotes below from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning.


And I, for one, am SO thankful- because as we are now, and I imagine, when we die, no-one will be without sin. And certainly not worthy to stand in the Presence of God.
So I'm very happy that purgatory is a reality. PS- Yes, Bill, that is exactly why we pray for the souls of the dead. And when I die? Please pray for me- shave off some of my sentence in purgatory. Thanks. Veep.

Hi VP,

Once a person leaves this life -- no sense praying for him/her or to him/her. That person will either already be in heaven or in you know where. Either way, his/her fate at that point is set in concrete.

You cheer for the Roman Catholic web site statement confirming Purgatory. What else would you expect them to write?

The excerpt tells us: Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification.

Of course they do. The Jews with their Judaism and the different Roman Catholic groups, both begun around 300 AD -- have the same superstitions.

However, no where in the writings of the Bible will you see Purgatory mentioned.

Acts describes the early church -- no Purgatory.

The Gospels tell of the ministry of Jesus Christ -- no Purgatory.

The Epistles tell of the growth, teaching, and beliefs of the early church -- no Purgatory.

Revelation tells us of End Time events -- no Purgatory.

So, my Friend, it seems that the only place we can find anything about Purgatory -- is in Roman Catholic writings and traditions -- all man created, church driven.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Of course they do. The Jews with their Judaism and the different Roman Catholic groups, both begun around 300 AD -- have the same superstitions.



Judaism began 300AD? Jesus was a Jew Bill, in case you forgot. He would have been read to from the Torah. The Catholic church began 30AD.
Did you add an extra 0?
Hi B50,

You tell me, "Well Bill, do you use 'Answers in Genesis', which is a fundamentalist web site?"

True, and I use the Institute for Creation Research and other Christian web sites. However, the difference is that these web sites are sharing knowledge and not attempting to set church law and tradition, as do all Roman Catholic web sites.

Then, you tell me, "I have said I like to explore all religions and have Catholic friends."

Yes, we know: New Age, Wiccan -- now Roman Catholic? What next?

Next, you say, "You just said again, the moment a person dies they go to heaven. Then you will modify that to say a believer goes to heaven, a non-believer goes to hell to wait for the rapture."

Forgive me for not being more clear. I sometimes forget that I am also addressing my "New Age/Wiccan/now Roman Catholic/stay tuned for others" Friend. So, for clarity, and I pray that you will finally understand:

When a Christian believer dies -- He/she goes directly into heaven.. His/her body goes into the grave -- but, the spirit, the essence of who we are -- goes directly into heaven to be with Jesus Christ and to be with all of our loved ones and friends who died before us, believing in the Lord. These people, along with the Old Testament saints, will stay in heaven in this nature -- until the Rapture occurs.

Those of us who are alive when the Rapture occurs will not taste death. Those who have died in faith, believing in Jesus Christ, will be raised first, resurrected, from the grave and "caught up" (1 Thessalonians 4:17) -- Greek harpazo -- Latin rapiemur -- English raptured -- to meet the Lord in the air. Then, a split second later, those of us who are still alive will be "caught up"
(harpazo, rapiemur, raptured) to meet the Lord in the air. At this time, we will all receive our immortal bodies.

When a non-believer dies -- He/she goes directly into Torment/Hades. His/her body goes into the grave -- but, the spirit goes into Torment/Hades where it experiences the horrors described in Luke 16:19-31 for the rich man. These people will stay in Torment/Hades until they are resurrected (Revelation 20:5) after the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom of Christ.

Then, they will be resurrected into their immortal bodies to stand before Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 2011-15) -- the judgment of punishment. They they will be sent into the Lake of Fire, hell (Revelation 20:15) -- for eternity.

You declare, "Then you will modify that to say a believer goes to heaven, a non-believer goes to hell to wait for the rapture."

No, I have never said, nor does the Bible say, that a non-believer goes into hell to await the rapture. The non-believer goes into Torment/Hades until he/she is resurrected (Revelation 20:5) to stand before Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment. Then, he/she WILL be sent into hell, the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:15), for eternity.

Next, you imagine, "A person who sinned and forgot to say 'I'm sorry' must go to hell and gets no chance at the rapture. Would that be right Bill?"

No, I would say that EVERYONE who dies while still denying God, while still denying Jesus Christ -- WILL go to hell. All who have died in faith will be in the presence of God -- eternally.

B50, I know that you can and will attempt to twist and spin (good old atheist techniques) what I have written. But, I do not see how I could have written it more clearly. If you do not understand now -- maybe it is all that New Age and Wiccan religion which is clogging your brain and preventing you from seeing the truth.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Just a refresher for your memory, Bill. I have already told you I had Catholic friends.
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b50m
Posted 30 May 2010 08:10 PM Hide Post

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But, let me ask you -- are YOU saying that SOME Roman Catholic churches are bad -- and that the priests smoke pot? You have an interesting concept of the Roman Catholic church. I have never heard anyone else, especially a Roman Catholic, tell us this.


Actually, it was more of a joke, however; I am NOT catholic, I just have friends who are. You are confusing me with LMM, who we talked about earlier. Her husband was raised Catholic.


Old, stubborn, and cranky.



Your sites interpret the Bible for you the way they want it stated. The 6000 year old earth, once saved alawys saved, etc......


quote:
Next, you imagine, "A person who sinned and forgot to say 'I'm sorry' must go to hell and gets no chance at the rapture. Would that be right Bill?"

No, I would say that EVERYONE who dies while still denying God, while still denying Jesus Christ -- WILL go to hell. All who have died in faith will be in the presence of God -- eternally.


Now finally, we have an answer to VP's question. If a believer dies while committing a sin, they still get to go to heaven. If a non-believer dies, they go to hell. But then that means that Hell punishes those who don't know about Jesus or those who have doubts but are still faithful to the Commandments.

So how narrow is that path to heaven Bill?
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Originally posted by b50m:
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Originally posted by Bill Gray:
The excerpt tells us: Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. Of course they do. The Jews with their Judaism and the different Roman Catholic groups, both begun around 300 AD -- have the same superstitions.
Judaism began 300 AD? Jesus was a Jew Bill, in case you forgot. He would have been read to from the Torah. The Catholic church began 30 AD. Did you add an extra 0?

Hi B,

No, my Friend, the Christian church began on the Day of Pentecost, about 30 to 33 AD -- and could be called catholic, meaning universal. However, even though there was a Christian church in Rome in the days of the apostles -- the Roman Catholic church was begun around 300 AD by Constantine.

I sometimes forget that when I am dialoguing with you -- I am either dealing on the Kindergarten level or the Contentious level. So, please forgive me for not being Kindergarten clear. Your original excerpt from the Roman Catholic web site stated: Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox . . .

So, when I wrote "and the different Roman Catholic groups, both begun around 300 AD. . . " -- I was obviously referring to the two sides of the Roman Catholic church, i.e., Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox.

No one is confused over Judaism nor when it began. That is, unless a person is purposely trying to be contentious. You wouldn't do that -- would you?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Originally posted by Bill Gray:
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Originally posted by b50m:
So how narrow is that path to heaven Bill?

TOO NARROW TO ALLOW NEW AGERS OR WICCANS TO PASS!


I doubt your ego will make it through Bill.

Personally, I think God will be a lot more welcoming to his children than you think.

You are like the God of the Old Testament.

I will see the God of the New Testament.
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Originally posted by b50m:
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Originally posted by Bill Gray:
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Originally posted by b50m:
So how narrow is that path to heaven Bill?

TOO NARROW TO ALLOW NEW AGERS OR WICCANS TO PASS!

I doubt your ego will make it through Bill.
Personally, I think God will be a lot more welcoming to his children than you think. You are like the God of the Old Testament. I will see the God of the New Testament.

Hi B,

You bring up a good point. Who does the Bible tell us are "children of God"?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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1. Yes, purgatory is real.
2. Yes, dead people need prayers just as much as the living.
3. St. Michael IS A SAINT. We pray to St. Michael to intercede against the snares of Satan.
4. Mary is the Mother of God.
5. Sins are visible to God ALL THE TIME. I believe He even knows our sins before we commit them. For He knows our hearts.
6. Not all Christians are saints. All are sinners.
7. The Catholic Church is the Church on which Jesus founded His Church- and gave to Peter the Keys to the Kingdom. And the authority which was passed down until today..."whatever is bound on earth shall be bound in Heaven..".
8. "Geez" does not constitute taking the Lord's name in vain.
9. Bill Gray is vehemently anti-Catholic. I suspect it is possibly due to his past in the Catholic Church. Perhaps a priest told him he was in adultery? hmm. maybe. Or maybe not allowed to marry again in the Catholic Church? Anyway, the bee in his bonnet against the Catholics is evident, and ridiculous. And I daresay, the animosity displayed leads me to believe it must be rooted deeply in a personal matter.
10. I have the right to express my faiths and beliefs equally to anyone on this forum, without being ridiculed, belittled or mocked.
I assert this right, and will refute any further anti-Catholic sentiment here.
I believe speaking out against the Catholic (which is a CHRISTIAN) church, speaking out against Mary, St. Michael, and God's holy people is very very wrong. No matter what you beleive. At the very least, it is an insult to those who believe.
11. I am equally educated in my faith as BG in his fundamentalist religion. I deny Sola Scriptura, and am a devout Christian.
This is not an oxymoron.
Bill Gray, blasphemy is not "GEEZ" but it is denying God. You deny God when you deny that He was FULLY HUMAN in Jesus Christ.
Wow, VP, you do get excited,

Okay, let's walk through these one by one:

1. Yes, purgatory is real.

Show us Purgatory in the Bible.

2. Yes, dead people need prayers just as much as the living.

Why? They are already dead. Nothing can be done to change their eternal destination. That was determined when they breathed their last breath in their mortal body. After that last mortal breath -- those believing in Jesus Christ go to heaven; those denying Jesus Christ go to hell. Period.

We most certainly should pray for the loved ones and friends left behind -- for they are going through a period of mourning; mourning the loss of the one they loved. But, that loved one is already settled in his/her new eternal home.

3. St. Michael IS A SAINT. We pray to St. Michael to intercede against the snares of Satan.

Michael is an angel -- how can he be a saint? Salvation is not for angels and sainthood is not for angels. Those are reserved for those in the body of Christ, the church, the worldwide body of believers. We are the saints; Michael and Gabriel are angels.

Where in the Bible does it tell us to pray to the Archangel Michael for protection against the snares of Satan? We are never told in the Bible to pray to angels. We pray only to God and our only mediator between God and man is Jesus Christ. No Mary, no angels, no other saints or believers -- only Jesus Christ.

4. Mary is the Mother of God.

Then, why did Jesus deny her in Matthew 12:47-50? She didn't seem to have much influence with Him that day. He told us then His priorities -- it is the body of believers.

5. Sins are visible to God ALL THE TIME. I believe He even knows our sins before we commit them. For He knows our hearts.

Yes, God knows we are sinners and will always be sinners -- until we die or are Raptured. And, our attempts to work our way into heaven, He scorns -- for, in Isaiah 64:6, we are told that our righteousness, our works, is like filthy rags.

Yet, when we are saved, when we are sealed by the Holy Spirit -- we are are covered by the righteousness of Christ (Romans 4:5) -- and God does not see our sins. Yes, we must daily repent of our sins for we all are sinners (Romans 3:23) -- but we are assured, "There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1).

6. Not all Christians are saints. All are sinners.

Psalm 34:9, "O fear the LORD, you His saints; For to those who fear Him there is no want."

Daniel 7:18, "But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come."

Matthew 27:52, "The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;"

Acts 9:13, "But Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem;"

Acts 9:32, "Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda."

Romans 1:7, "To all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

There are many more; but, I will stop there. However, one thing I did not find anywhere in the Bible is where angels are called saints or where there is a special category of saints who were to be given special honors.

Yes, we are all sinners -- but, those who are in Christ Jesus are the ones He calls His saints.

7. The Catholic Church is the Church on which Jesus founded His Church - and gave to Peter the Keys to the Kingdom. And the authority which was passed down until today..."whatever is bound on earth shall be bound in Heaven..".

Yes, Peter was one of twelve apostles and Jesus did give Peter special acknowledgment that day for his spiritual discernment in recognizing, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matthew 16:19). But, He did not set Peter apart as being more special than the other apostles.

And, we are told in Acts 1:21-26 that an apostle MUST be a man who had walked with Jesus and the disciples during His earthly ministry. So, once those remaining apostles plus Paul died -- there are NO MORE apostles. That stopped with the death of John around 95-100 AD.

I like the explanation given by Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel in his commentary on Matthew 16:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

We have one of two choices. The church is built upon Peter, or the church is build upon Peter's confession, that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God.

Now the Catholics assert that the church was built on Peter. There are problems with this. Number one, Jesus said unto him, "Thou art Petros," which in the Greek is a little stone. And then He declared, "upon this Petras," which is a giant stone, "I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." The church was not build upon the little stone, but upon the giant rock; "Thou art Petros," a little stone, "upon this Petras."

Paul the apostle in 1 Corinthians 3:11, tells us: "For other foundation can no man lay, then that is laid, which is" -- not Simon Peter, but Jesus Christ. "No other foundation can man lay, but that which is."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

8. "Geez" does not constitute taking the Lord's name in vain.

Deny what you like. But, you and I both know that "Geez" is a shortened version of "Jesus." But, you can say whatever you want. Personally, I would feel like I am spitting in the face of my Lord if I were to use that exclamation. I can find other words to add emphasize to my spoken or written words without spitting in His face.

9. Bill Gray is vehemently anti-Catholic. I suspect it is possibly due to his past in the Catholic Church. Perhaps a priest told him he was in adultery? hmm. maybe. Or maybe not allowed to marry again in the Catholic Church? Anyway, the bee in his bonnet against the Catholics is evident, and ridiculous. And I daresay, the animosity displayed leads me to believe it must be rooted deeply in a personal matter.

No, I actually enjoyed the years I spent attending the Roman Catholic church -- and I enjoyed coaching a basketball team at a Roman Catholic school in Norfolk. And, believe it or not -- I was one of the loudest complainers when the Roman Catholic church began to modernize, i.e., changing the mass to English and allow the nuns to wear street clothes instead of the traditional habits.

And, I still have close family and friends in the Roman Catholic church. Do I ridicule them? No. But, if they ask, as you do when you post on the Religion Forum, my opinion of the Roman Catholic doctrines of the Eucharist, Mariology, Purgatory, Saints, and many others -- I will have to tell them the same I tell you. They are not Biblical and therefore are not Biblical doctrines. I can never accept them nor honor them for they are not Biblical.

10. I have the right to express my faiths and beliefs equally to anyone on this forum, without being ridiculed, belittled, or mocked. I assert this right, and will refute any further anti-Catholic sentiment here. I believe speaking out against the Catholic (which is a CHRISTIAN) church, speaking out against Mary, St. Michael, and God's holy people is very very wrong. No matter what you believe. At the very least, it is an insult to those who believe.

Yes, my Friend, you most certainly have the right to express your faith and your beliefs on the Religion Forum. However, I, too, have the same right -- and, therefore, I speak up when you declare a Tradition to be Biblical.

Are Roman Catholics Christians? Some are; some are not. The same applies for the Protestant churches -- some people in those churches are Christian; some are not.

You say that I am, "speaking out against Mary, St. Michael, and God's holy people is very very wrong."

No, I am giving Mary the honor she deserves. She was a very special woman. She was a very blessed woman. However, she is NOT the Mother of God, nor is she the Queen of Heaven.

Regarding Saint Michael -- there are many Michaels who are saints. I know quite a few myself. However, none of those are angels. As a matter of fact -- they are ALL sinners. The difference being that we are all forgiven sinners.

You say I speak against God's holy people. Who is that? I don't recall speaking against any holy people; I try to respect all the saints in the body of Christ.

11. I am equally educated in my faith as BG in his fundamentalist religion. I deny Sola Scriptura, and am a devout Christian. This is not an oxymoron.

I have never questioned your education. However, I have wondered how much of it came from the Bible -- and how much came from man created Traditions and Catechisms. You may be more educated than me -- for I only have been studying the Bible for 23 years. I still have a long way to go to reach maturity in God's Written Word.

You deny Sola Scripture. Okay, then God must be a liar -- for He tells us in the book He authored, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

We know that ALL Scripture is inspired by God, i.e., He authored ALL Scripture for the express purpose of teaching, reproving, correcting all believers. We know that He authored it for training believers in righteousness. And, we know that He authored it so that the man of God, i.e., all Christian believers, can be adequate in their Christian walk -- and equipped to do the work He gives us as Christian believers, i.e, sharing His Gospel with all the world.

So, given all that we know about the Written Word of God, the Bible -- why would He need men to write more books of Traditions, Rituals, and Catechisms for doing the same tasks? Doesn't make sense, does it?

Therefore, Sola Scriptura -- by Scripture alone -- is the only understanding which makes sense.

VP, I praise God that you tell me you are a devout Christian. But, it might help if you start believing God when He tells you, "ALL Scripture is inspired by God. . ."

Finally, you tell me, "Bill Gray, blasphemy is not "GEEZ" -- but it is denying God. You deny God when you deny that He was FULLY HUMAN in Jesus Christ."

Quite truthfully, both are blasphemous. And, I have never denied that Jesus Christ was both fully God and fully Man, fully human. I have never denied that. What I have denied is that Mary is the Mother of God. She was the physical womb through which Jesus became the only divine Man.

But, that did not make her divine, it did not make her deity, it did not make her anything except a very blessed woman -- period. The God nature of Jesus Christ is preexisting -- from eternity past to eternity future -- no beginning, no ending. Therefore, no one could be His mother.

The Man nature of Jesus Christ was born about 4 BC and died about 30 AD. This Man had a human mother. He lived a short, but amazing life. He changed the world. But, His human nature died and He once again took up His divine nature and his glorified, immortal body. Today, as God the Son, He sits at the right hand of God the Father in His glorified body and has resumed His full divine nature as God. This nature of Jesus Christ has no mother; for He is deity, He is preexisting.

So, no Mary is not the Mother of God and Mary is not the Queen of Heaven. In heaven, we will all be equal, we will all be immortal, and we will all be equally happy and blessed.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Then, it is not clear what you did mean -- if not the Law? There is no Old Law and New Law. There was the Law given to Moses in the Old Testament for the people of Israel.

And, there is the Dispensation of Grace brought to us through Jesus Christ.

And, that is what I was addressing. If you had something else in mind; please tell me.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill



I said commandments is not baptism a commandment? Or are you going to pick and choose the ones that suit you?

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