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Which Church Do You Attend?

Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful

Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion I began last week titled "Does Saving Faith Include Belief In A Specific Eschatology?" --  my Friend, Lexum, asks  me, "Bill, what church are you a member of?  Apparently not the C0C.  Perhaps John’s or one of the other apostles?"

As I am sure you already know, I am a Baptist flavored Christian.  Baptist flavored because once I had determined my own personal Statement of Faith, i.e., those Biblical doctrines which I believe and which I teach if asked -- I find that it aligns well with that of the Baptist church.   Since I have worshiped in a Baptist church (Baptist General Conference most of the time, Southern Baptist a few  times) -- I do consider myself a Baptist.  However, if asked, my first response will always be that I am a Christian.  If pushed, I will  then add that I am a Baptist flavored Christian.

Christian because I am a believer -- and I follow those teachings set forth by the first Christian fellowship begun on the Day of Pentecost in 33 A.D.

And, I do believe the Baptist church is the church today most closely identified, by our teachings, with that first group of believers from 33 A.D.

Then, you ask, "How could you hang anything over the door of a non-denominational religious assemblage other than Church of Christ.  It says to any rational person that those who assemble here are members if HIS CHURCH."

What is the CHURCH?  It is the worldwide body of believers.  It is His church, His bride, His body. 

 

Is it Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, etc.?  No, these are merely groups in which folks have found common methods of worship which best fit what they believe the Bible teaches.  But, when it is all boiled down -- there is only one CHURCH -- the worldwide body of believers who believe and teach the Essential Christian Biblical Doctrines.

There is a fantastic Southern Gospel song which says this better than I can ever could:

IT'S NOT WHAT'S OVER THE DOOR

Some people think today, If heaven you would see,
You must belong to their church, Or be lost eternally.
But according to God's word, What He's still looking for,
Is what He finds within your heart, And not what's over the door.

It's not what's over the door Of the church that you attend,
That makes you a child of God, And a heavenly citizen.
As the eyes of the Lord look this world o'er,
There's just one thing He's lookin' for
Can't you see that's what's in your heart
And not what's over the door.

Does Jesus live in your heart, And have you been born again,
Has the blood of Calvary's Lamb, Washed away all your sins?
Are you fully trusting in, The crucified risen Lord,
Can't you see that it's what's in your heart, And not what's over the door.

 
That, my Friend, IS the Christian church.

Next, you declare, "Bill, I think you need to consider a warning in Revelations (should be Revelation) about inventing things which are nothing more than additions to GOD’s WORD.  Blaringly obvious of one reads is what would seem deterrent enough for adding a wild story about the second coming."

Lex, I realize that your COC believes and teaches an Amillennial Second Coming of Christ.  So, let's tell folks what this means.

Amillennialism teaches that the Millennium began on the Day of Pentecost, when the Church Age began and will end with the Second Coming of Christ.  His Second Coming and the resurrection of all the dead, believers and non-believers, happen at the same time.  The Great White Throne Judgment will include all resurrected dead, both believers and non-believers.  And, then Christ will take the believers into eternity.

Amillennialism teaches that the Millennium and Tribulation are occurring right now; both began on the Day of Pentecost and both will end upon His Second Coming.  In other words, we are living in the Tribulation right now.

There are a few problems with this.  First, "millennium" means one thousand years.  It has been over two thousand years since the Day of Pentecost.  Does this mean that we are living in the SECOND MILLENNIUM now?

And, a major problem with the Amillennial view of His Second Coming -- when does the Wedding Feast of the Lamb occur, the time He takes the glorified body of believers, His church, as His bride?  Revelation 19:6-9 tell us that this happens during the Tribulation --  while the church, His body of believers, His bride -- is in heaven.  How can this be -- in an Amillennial view of His Second Coming --  when there is no Rapture of His church, His bride, into heaven?

Throughout the Bible, we read of the horrible things that will happen during the Tribulation.  Does anyone believe that the things, i.e., earthquakes, storms, floods, etc. -- which are happening on earth today -- are anywhere near as horrible as what is described in Revelation?

When has the sun darkened, the moon become as blood, and stars fallen from heaven?  When has one third of all the water on earth become bitter and deadly to drink -- and one third of all fish in the oceans die from the bad water?   When has all the fresh waters of the earth turned to blood?  Has anyone seen any 100 pound hail stones pounding the entire earth?  These things will occur during  the Tribulation -- according to Scripture.

Lex, these are events which are clearly defined and prophesied to occur during the Tribulation.  If none of these things have happened, or are happening -- how can we be in the Tribulation?

The only eschatological view which makes sense and is supported in the Bible -- is the PreTribulation Rapture and the PreMillennial Return of Christ to establish His 1000 year Millennial Reign on earth.

My Friend, if you truly believe in an Amillennial Return of Christ -- please show us proof from Scripture.  But, keep in mind that if you give us a Scripture verse which is contradicted in other portions of Scripture -- then your understanding and interpretation of that passage is not correct.

But, one qualifier.  It must be your work and not a long copy/paste from what someone else has written.  Copying part of what another has written -- to support what you have written -- is okay.  But, to respond with a long copy/paste from another when the only thing from you in the whole post is your name and maybe, "Bill. . ." -- doesn't cut it.

If you truly believe in the Amillennial Return of Christ -- YOU should be able to prove it from Scripture.  Otherwise, you are just a puppet repeating what others have told you.

I will be happy to compare Scripture references with you regarding each of our eschatological beliefs.  Tell us where in Scripture an Amillennial Return of Christ is supported -- and we will go from there.

Finally, Lex, you tell me, "I suggest you need to be a member of His Church."

I am.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Savior - Not Religion-1b

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semiannualchicksemiannualchickOld Faithful

Bill, Hebrews speaks of “Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together”. Some people see that as a warning that those who miss services are likely to be ensnared by sin. They believe that since sin is breaking God's law, then not attending church is a sin.

 

I’ve often wondered about the people on this forum that say they’re a Christian. Most Sunday mornings/nights, & Wednesday nights you find those same people posting on this forum. It could be one of two things. They’re not in church or they’re in church, but on the internet using their phone or iPad.  Are they sinning by doing one or both of those?  

 

Not that I expect an answer, but do you consider the COC a cult?

lexumlexumHall of Famer

Bill I fail to see how arguing with you about the Bible can result in any good outcome when you teach your readers that commandments of God are just ornaments to entertain anyone that decides on their own merit when to use them. You need to, with your logic, quit with hounding these athiest. Since praying and studying isn’t really necessary. You are way out there Bill. So let it bode.

lexumlexumHall of Famer
Originally Posted by semiannualchick:

Bill, Hebrews speaks of “Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together”. Some people see that as a warning that those who miss services are likely to be ensnared by sin. They believe that since sin is breaking God's law, then not attending church is a sin.

 

I’ve often wondered about the people on this forum that say they’re a Christian. Most Sunday mornings/nights, & Wednesday nights you find those same people posting on this forum. It could be one of two things. They’re not in church or they’re in church, but on the internet using their phone or iPad.  Are they sinning by doing one or both of those?  

 

Not that I expect an answer, but do you consider the COC a cult?

================================

semi, as you know i don't use the term "go to church" as being something you go to. you are in the Church wherever you are. the assemblage is another matter.

 

but from Bill we now know an assemblage is like a marriage ceremony or the communion; not necessary atall just some goofy thing folk do for entertainment. null in otherwords.

 

from this point on i must simply evoke any utterance of Bill as "null" since invokeing is un-necessary.

Extra-260Extra-260Post Master

Revelation 20:4 And I saw the thrones, and they that sat on them, and judgem,ent was given unto them: And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had recieved his mark in their foreheads, or in their hands; And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Millenium)

 

 Verse 5: But the rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

 Revelation 5:10  And hath made us unto our God priests and kings : And we shall reign on the earth.

 

 Revelation 2 26-27 And to him that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will i give power over the nations. And he shall rule them as a rod of iron.

ContendahContendahOld Faithful
Originally Posted by SistahToldYa:

I never heard the rapture taught when I was a girl. I have later, but it's not something our pastor stresses. Do you mind telling us what kind of Baptist church you're a member of, Bill?

__

 

Since Bill has been absent for some time, I will kindly become his surrogate and answer your question.  Bill is an ardent disciple of the notable heretic, "Pastor" Chuck Smith, of the "Calvary Chapel" Cult.  Here is a link that examines some of the glaringly unscriptural and patently contradictory doctrines of that particular cult:

 

http://www.atruechurch.info/smith1.html

 

Be sure to continue to Part Two of the attachment for a more complete description of some of the absurd notions of Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel.

 

Smith's teaching on abortion is very unusual, to say the least:

 

http://phoenixpreacher.net/?p=5806

 

http://defendingcontending.com...chapels-chuck-smith/ (The fat old guy at the microphone is Smith).

 

Expect Bill Gray to appear here soon, defending his heretical mentor.

Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:  Originally Posted by SistahToldYa:

I never heard the rapture taught when I was a girl. I have later, but it's not something our pastor stresses. Do you mind telling us what kind of Baptist church you're a member of, Bill?

Hi Sistah,

 

I have written most of a full response to your comments and question.  But, because I am getting ready right now to drive to San Diego for the funeral of a Christian Friend -- and tomorrow we have to drive to San Diego once again for the 50th Wedding Anniversary of other Friends -- I may not get to post it for a day or so.  I will try to post it tomorrow.

 

But, please know that anything Crusty writes will be written from his extreme dislike of me -- and his spite for all things Christian.  As an example, the link he gives to an article written about Pastor Chuck Smith is full of untruths.  And, the person who wrote it is so dishonest -- that he/she will not even tell his/her name.

 

The article sounds very much like the fellow L. Ray Smith who teaches an extremely false and dangerous theology.   But, I do not know.  I can only say that the writing sounds very much like other things Smith has written -- but, on other sites Smith does us his own name.  This person throws stones from behind a mask of no-name.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

ContendahContendahOld Faithful
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:  Originally Posted by SistahToldYa:

I never heard the rapture taught when I was a girl. I have later, but it's not something our pastor stresses. Do you mind telling us what kind of Baptist church you're a member of, Bill?

Hi Sistah,

 

I have written most of a full response to your comments and question.  But, because I am getting ready right now to drive to San Diego for the funeral of a Christian Friend -- and tomorrow we have to drive to San Diego once again for the 50th Wedding Anniversary of other Friends -- I may not get to post it for a day or so.  I will try to post it tomorrow.

 

But, please know that anything Crusty writes will be written from his extreme dislike of me -- and his spite for all things Christian.  As an example, the link he gives to an article written about Pastor Chuck Smith is full of untruths.  And, the person who wrote it is so dishonest -- that he/she will not even tell his/her name.

 

The article sounds very much like the fellow L. Ray Smith who teaches an extremely false and dangerous theology.   But, I do not know.  I can only say that the writing sounds very much like other things Smith has written -- but, on other sites Smith does us his own name.  This person throws stones from behind a mask of no-name.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

_______

 

And just where is this post by Crusty that you refer to?  There is no post by Crusty in this string.

We await your attempt to discredit the information in the links I provided.  We are bracing for an avalanche of weasel words and convoluted apologetics.

 

More straight stuff on Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith.  This article is from the highly-respected periodical, Christianity Today, and its source and author are plainly identified, so you can not dispute it on the basis of any alleged anonymity. Be sure to read the part about "Sexual License." Calvary Chapel does not appear to follow Biblical teaching on the sanctity of marriage.  Their laxity in that area might be something that attracts persons with, for example, unscriptural divorces, to feel comfortable in their fellowship.

http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?id=2176&option=com_content&task=view

 

Yet more information on the confused mess that is Calvary Chapel and its "senior pastor," Chuck Smith:

 

http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=1028

"Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and the Founder and Leader of the Calvary Chapel Movement with his good "friend" Bob Grenier, who confessed Child Abuse (punching his son in the face) to his Calvary Chapel Board per a 24-year Board Member...and they didn't report the crime and covered it up which led to more abuse and Paul Grenier alleges molestation as well, post-confession. Bob Grenier is Calvary Chapel Senior Pastor in Visalia to this moment and is fully endorsed by Chuck Smith even though Chuck knows he is an unrepentant Child Abuser who won't cop to his sin (you can't repent if you don't confess to the sin)."

 

Trouble and conflict seem to be  standard elements of  the goings-on at Chuck Smith's cult.

 

Do your own Googling to find even more reports of these kinds of ecclesiastical soap operas at Calvary Chapel.

 

Last edited by Contendah
semiannualchicksemiannualchickOld Faithful
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

But, please know that anything Crusty writes will be written from his extreme dislike of me -- and his spite for all things Christian.  As an example, the link he gives to an article written about Pastor Chuck Smith is full of untruths.  And, the person who wrote it is so dishonest -- that he/she will not even tell his/her name.

 Bill

______________________________

Anything Crusty writes? I think your extreme dislike of Crusty is making you see things that aren't there.

 

Are you saying that's not Chuck Smith talking in that link?

 

lexumlexumHall of Famer

Bill the title of your thread testifies to your noviceisity  regarding the Church.

I don’t attend any church.

I am a member of His Church.

You on the other hand attend something made with human hands run by a pastor appointed it seems through and by some human authority attaching a degree to the position. God himself ordained us all as preachers to exponentially spread the Word.

   As long as you insist that man is the authority for your church you are as far from the truth as the atheist contingent.

………….and I think con10duh++er of God will back me up

CrustyMacCrustyMacOld Faithful
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Sistah,

 

 

 

But, please know that anything Crusty writes will be written from his extreme dislike of me -- and his spite for all things Christian.  As an example, the link he gives to an article written about Pastor Chuck Smith is full of untruths.  And, the person who wrote it is so dishonest -- that he/she will not even tell his/her name.

 

 

Bill

____________________

Bill, time to get back on your medication.  I haven't posted anything here.  But to set the record straight, I don't dislike you.  I just think much of what you believe is ridiculous, and very un-Christian.

Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote: Originally Posted by SistahToldYa:

I never heard the Rapture taught when I was a girl. I have later, but it's not something our pastor stresses.  Do you mind telling us what kind of Baptist church you're a member of, Bill?

Hi Sistah,

 

Because it has been several days since you posted your comments/question, and because I consider this a very important matter -- I have begun a new discussion to answer you.  Take a look at the new discussion titled "A Baptist Flavored Christian"

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

semiannualchicksemiannualchickOld Faithful
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Sistah,

 

Because it has been several days since you posted your comments/question, and because I consider this a very important matter -- I have begun a new discussion to answer you.  Take a look at the new discussion titled "A Baptist Flavored Christian"

Bill

_______________________

And some of us consider this a very important matter.

You made yourself look like a fool by blaming Crusty with something he didn't say or do. As usual, you run away & start another topic.

ContendahContendahOld Faithful
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote: Originally Posted by SistahToldYa:

I never heard the Rapture taught when I was a girl. I have later, but it's not something our pastor stresses.  Do you mind telling us what kind of Baptist church you're a member of, Bill?

Hi Sistah,

 

Because it has been several days since you posted your comments/question, and because I consider this a very important matter -- I have begun a new discussion to answer you.  Take a look at the new discussion titled "A Baptist Flavored Christian"

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

___

Yet another transparent maneuver to divert readers away from the whuppin' Bill has gotten in this string. But this whuppin' is still a matter of record, Bill.  Your cowardly tactics won't change that.

Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:  Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:  Originally Posted by SistahToldYa:

I never heard the rapture taught when I was a girl. I have later, but it's not something our pastor stresses. Do you mind telling us what kind of Baptist church you're a member of, Bill?

Hi Sistah,

 

I have written most of a full response to your comments and question.  But, because I am getting ready right now to drive to San Diego for the funeral of a Christian Friend -- and tomorrow we have to drive to San Diego once again for the 50th Wedding Anniversary of other Friends -- I may not get to post it for a day or so.  I will try to post it tomorrow.

 

But, please know that anything Crusty writes will be written from his extreme dislike of me -- and his spite for all things Christian.  As an example, the link he gives to an article written about Pastor Chuck Smith is full of untruths.  And, the person who wrote it is so dishonest -- that he/she will not even tell his/her name.

 

The article sounds very much like the fellow L. Ray Smith who teaches an extremely false and dangerous theology.   But, I do not know.  I can only say that the writing sounds very much like other things Smith has written -- but, on other sites Smith does us his own name.  This person throws stones from behind a mask of no-name.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,   Bill 

Hi all,

 

In this earlier post, when I was getting ready to leave for San Diego to attend the funeral of a Christian Friend, I erroneously attributed comments to Crusty.  Actually, it was BeterCon who posted the comments to which I refer. 

 

So, to my Friend, Crusty -- I do apologize.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Spaghetti_Boy_1b_SORRY

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semiannualchicksemiannualchickOld Faithful
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Hi all,

In this earlier post, when I was getting ready to leave for San Diego to attend the funeral of a Christian Friend, I erroneously attributed comments to Crusty.  Actually, it was BeterCon who posted the comments to which I refer. 

So, to my Friend, Crusty -- I do apologize.

Bill

_______________________

OMG! Bill Gray admitted & apologized for making a mistake! What is this world coming to?

 

Crusty, I didn't know you & Bill were

friends.

semiannualchicksemiannualchickOld Faithful
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Chick,

Thank you for noticing.  And, personally, I consider you my Friend, also.  Regardless of how you consider me, I consider you a Friend.  And, I wish the very best for you.

Bill

________________________

How could I not notice when that's something you just don't do?

You consider me a friend, & you wish the very best for me? You talk out of both sides of your mouth, Bill.

 

Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:  Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
quote:  Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Chick,

Thank you for noticing.  And, personally, I consider you my Friend, also.  Regardless of how you consider me, I consider you a Friend.  And, I wish the very best for you.  Bill

How could I not notice when that's something you just don't do?   You consider me a friend, & you wish the very best for me?  You talk out of both sides of your mouth, Bill.
Hi Chick,

 

Would you care to explain that in more detail?   You tell me in other posts that I do not show Christian love and compassion.  If that were true, I would not care that you have rejected Christ.  Do you say that I am being unloving when I quote the Bible which tells us that all who are not believers will spend eternity in hell?  The Bible does say this. 

 

I have never written that YOU will go to hell.  I have written that God gives everyone, including YOU, the "free will" to choose between heaven and hell as an eternal destination.  I have written that, by not choosing to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, by refusing His "free gift" of eternal life -- a person is condemning himself/herself to an eternity in hell.   This is all from the Bible; it is not from Bill Gray.

 

And, because I do have a Christian love and compassion for you, and all non-believers -- I will tell you that if you do not choose to follow Jesus Christ -- you are condemning yourself to hell.

 

You remind me very much of myself before I was a Christian believer.  As I have mentioned before, I searched for years to find a church which would tell me that hell is not real.  I wanted nothing to do with those churches that told me hell is real.  And, I found a chaplain who assured me hell is not real.

 

That chaplain was wrong.  I was wrong in trying to find a church which fit my desired worldly lifestyle.  And, you are wrong in believing that everyone who tells you of "free will" and of the choice YOU must make -- is condemning you to hell.   No, my Friend, if you go to hell -- it will be because YOU chose to go to hell; not because Bill Gray told you about hell.

 

So, Chick, how is this speaking out of both sides of my mouth?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

semiannualchicksemiannualchickOld Faithful

Good grief, Bill, your ego never ceases to amaze me. I remind you very much of yourself? How so? I have NEVER searched for years to find a church which would tell me that hell is not real.  I have NEVER wanted nothing to do with those churches that told me hell is real. I think it’s a little stupid for someone to think they can find a church that will say Hell isn’t real. If Heaven is real, then why wouldn’t Hell be real?

 

I have NEVER said that anyone who tells me of "free will" is condemning me to hell. I have NEVER said the choice wasn’t mine. I have said if we don’t obey the rules & walk the line, God will throw us into the lake of fire & I believe that to be true. What else can He do if we don’t obey the rules & walk the line? According to the Bible, we sure won’t get to Heaven!

 

Yes, you have written that I will go to Hell. Not just me, but you’ve said it to many of us. Do you really think we, or anyone that post or reads on this forum, need you to tell us about “free will”? And why would I listen to you, someone that I see as a wolf in sheep’s clothing? I’m not trying to be rude or nasty. That is honestly how I see you.

 

Love & compassion? You don’t have it. All you have is a desire to get that crown with diamonds on it. You are working your way into Heaven by pushing everyone else away. I don’t believe it works that way. The rude remarks you make, the cartoons you post that suggest we’re all stupid, your favorite remark about the “six men” that will carry us out of church, your using the “Duh” word to us, is that what you think love & compassion is?

 

No one on this forum can have a serious debate with you. You turn it into a “Bill Gray Knows All” & if any of us question you or make the least bit of sense or post a question you can’t or won’t answer, you call it a spitting contest & run away to start another topic.

 

You talk out of both sides of your mouth by claiming we’re your “friend”, by claiming you “love” us by telling us about God. Then you turn right around with your stupid cartoons that have a rude message behind them, make remarks that indicate you think we’re stupid, need I go on?

Humility is an act of being humble. You would do well to try & find some.

 

 

ContendahContendahOld Faithful
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:  Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
quote:  Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Chick,

Thank you for noticing.  And, personally, I consider you my Friend, also.  Regardless of how you consider me, I consider you a Friend.  And, I wish the very best for you.  Bill

How could I not notice when that's something you just don't do?   You consider me a friend, & you wish the very best for me?  You talk out of both sides of your mouth, Bill.
Hi Chick,

 

Would you care to explain that in more detail?   You tell me in other posts that I do not show Christian love and compassion.  If that were true, I would not care that you have rejected Christ.  Do you say that I am being unloving when I quote the Bible which tells us that all who are not believers will spend eternity in hell?  The Bible does say this. 

 

I have never written that YOU will go to hell.  I have written that God gives everyone, including YOU, the "free will" to choose between heaven and hell as an eternal destination.  I have written that, by not choosing to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, by refusing His "free gift" of eternal life -- a person is condemning himself/herself to an eternity in hell.   This is all from the Bible; it is not from Bill Gray.

 

And, because I do have a Christian love and compassion for you, and all non-believers -- I will tell you that if you do not choose to follow Jesus Christ -- you are condemning yourself to hell.

 

You remind me very much of myself before I was a Christian believer.  As I have mentioned before, I searched for years to find a church which would tell me that hell is not real.  I wanted nothing to do with those churches that told me hell is real.  And, I found a chaplain who assured me hell is not real.

 

That chaplain was wrong.  I was wrong in trying to find a church which fit my desired worldly lifestyle.  And, you are wrong in believing that everyone who tells you of "free will" and of the choice YOU must make -- is condemning you to hell.   No, my Friend, if you go to hell -- it will be because YOU chose to go to hell; not because Bill Gray told you about hell.

 

So, Chick, how is this speaking out of both sides of my mouth?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

____

 

Did you seek and find a church that suited your marriage/divorce situation?

Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:  Originally Posted by semiannualchick:

Good grief, Bill, your ego never ceases to amaze me.  I remind you very much of yourself?  How so?  I have NEVER searched for years to find a church which would tell me that hell is not real.  I have NEVER wanted nothing to do with those churches that told me hell is real.  I think it’s a little stupid for someone to think they can find a church that will say Hell isn’t real. If Heaven is real, then why wouldn’t Hell be real?

Hi Chick,

 

Yes, you and I have, or had, a similar problem.  As a young child, I was traumatized by a traveling "revival preacher" in a local church in Sheffield which is part of the Holiness Movement.  Because of that, for most of my life, I sometimes played church, all the while running from God -- until a true man of God and his local church "loved me all the way to the cross."  That phrase is borrowed from Dr. Ergun Caner who used it to describe his conversion from Islam to Jesus Christ in a small Baptist church.

 

This is why I wrote in my earlier post:

 

You remind me very much of myself before I was a Christian believer.  As I have mentioned before, I searched for years to find a church which would tell me that hell is not real.  I wanted nothing to do with those churches that told me hell is real.  And, I found a chaplain who assured me hell is not real.

 

I say this because you have indicated in past posts, or, at least this is how I have read your posts -- that a traumatic time in your life made you turn from God and church -- leaving you in a state of agnosticism.  You may not have searched for a church that would tell you that hell is not real -- but, you have avoided church, apparently because of your traumatic experience.

 

Yes, I did find an Air Force chaplain, from a large liberal Protestant denomination, who assured me sincerely that hell is only a myth.  And, when he told me this I was very happy.   For then, I could live my pagan worldly lifestyle, still go to church, and be right with God -- no worry about condemning myself to hell.  For, according to this clergy -- there is no hell.

 

That man was wrong!  And, his teaching is extremely dangerous to the eternal spiritual health of many people.  His teaching kept me in the world, even though I was often attending church.  But, I believe that deep down inside, I knew this man was wrong and that God's perfect love and perfect justice -- demands that a true hell must exist.  And, it is the only alternative to heaven.  Eventually, I quit trying to fool myself -- and did exactly as you appear to be doing now -- I ran from God.

 

But, praise God, He led me to a pastor who believed and taught the truth -- in love.  And, through this man and his local church -- I did become a born again Christian believer.

 

And, Chick, because I do feel a Christian love for you -- I pray that you will find such a person who can love you back into the arms of Jesus Christ.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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semiannualchicksemiannualchickOld Faithful
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Chick,

 Yes, you and I have, or had, a similar problem.  As a young child, I was traumatized by a traveling "revival preacher" in a local church in Sheffield which is part of the Holiness Movement.  Because of that, for most of my life, I sometimes played church, all the while running from God 

I say this because you have indicated in past posts, or, at least this is how I have read your posts -- that a traumatic time in your life made you turn from God and church -- leaving you in a state of agnosticism.  You may not have searched for a church that would tell you that hell is not real -- but, you have avoided church, apparently because of your traumatic experience.

Eventually, I quit trying to fool myself -- and did exactly as you appear to be doing now -- I ran from God.

And, Chick, because I do feel a Christian love for you - 

Bill

_________________________

 

 No, you & I have never had a similar problem! And I have never been “traumatized” by anything in any church.

 

I have said many times that I began to question the existence of God when after one to many times, he took my faith/my prayers & stomped on them. I began to wonder why & thought just maybe He & the Bible weren’t real.

 

My not going to church anymore had nothing to do with any traumatic time in my life. I just plainly decided I didn’t want to go anymore. Church people are doing no more than playing a part & I wanted no part of it anymore. It was that simple, & not traumatic at all.

 

No, wrong again. I’m not running from anything. How can a person run from something they’re not sure even exist?

If you feel a Christian love for me or anyone else on this forum, I would hate to see how you treat someone you dislike.

Bill, I suggest if you want to know why/how I feel about something, ask me. Please stop saying you & I are similar.

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