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Hi to all my Forum Friends,

In the long running discussion begun by my atheist Friend, Uno, titled "God Hates F*gs so He Sent Us Tornadoes" -- another atheist Friend, Robust, chimed in with, "Why do you think that the creator of a trillion worlds wants our first duty to be for us to love him?   Why is the creator of existence itself so needy of us . . .?"

And, I responded to Robust's question, "Short and sweet answer -- He created us for fellowship; He created us because He wants to  love us and that we should love Him; thus, He created us in His image -- perfect, spiritual, loving.

But, in giving us life, in giving us a complete and full life -- He gave us the gift of 'free will.'   And, using that gift of 'free will' -- our g-g-g-g, etc., grandfather, Adam, blew it.  He disobeyed God -- and, as they say in books and movies, the rest is history.

We can relate to this situation.  In love, we and our spouses create a beautiful baby.  We love that baby and wants its love in return.   Unfortunately, that baby has the same 'free will' God has given to all of us.  And, eventually that 'free will' will evolve (forgive the pun) into that being called a teenager.  And, at times, we will have to punish that teenager -- for his/her own good.  If you could only ask my daughter how many times she was grounded in high school.  But, it was done because I love her.

And, this is the way God views us; this is why the God who created the universe, the billions or trillions of stars and planet, as well as our one earth -- created us in His image -- to love us and to have us love Him."

Our Friend, Chick, who may be a disillusioned non-believer, or possibly an agnostic, tells me, "What's the image he created you of?  Come on, Bill!  You grounded her because she didn't do what you told her to.  Love had nothing to do with it."

My response to Chick, "Love had everything to do with it.  Did you, or do you, discipline your children?   Why?  To guide them, to teach them?  Because you love them or because you hate them?

When my children were young, I told them, "The one thing I will not tolerate is you lying to me.  If you do something wrong, yes, you may get punished for it.  But, if you are honest with me, the punishment, if any, will be much less.  However, if you lie about it and I find out, you most certainly will get punished and more severely."   Isn't that what God tells us?

My daughter was somewhat rebellious and often got into trouble because she was not always honest with me.   Only one time, that I know, did I ever catch my son lying to me -- and that was to protect his sister.  I could chastise him, but, I could not punish him for  that.

What most young people do not recognize is that, as the Bible tells us in Ecclesiastes 1:9, "There is nothing new under the sun."   The little games and tricks young people think they invented -- I did when I was a kid -- and my dad did when he was a kid -- and his dad before him.  

So, duh!, gee whiz, how did I know what was going on?  I did the same stupid things when I was young.   And, when my children were young, I was just trying to protect them from making the same dumb mistakes I had made, with the same consequences.

When our first granddaughter was born, I got a real kick out of our son.  We were going to babysit and he asked his mom, "Do you  know what to do?"    Golly, gee!  Who do you think changed your diapers when you were a baby?

In a way, God is much like us with our children.  In His omniscience, He knows everything we do, before we do it.  Yet, He is very patient with us; not wanting any of us to be lost.  He allows us free will to make our decisions; and at the same time, He gives us guidance.  His guidance is found in the Bible -- the complete Bible.

So, Chick, yes -- when I corrected or chastised my children -- it was most definitely because I love them.  When I gave them something -- or when I denied them something; it was because I love them.  And, that is the way God views us -- all of us, even the  rebellious ones who continue to deny Him.

As we are told in Revelation 3:20, Jesus is standing at the door of our hearts, patiently waiting and longing for YOU to open the door and invite Him to come in and be your very best Friend.   He will not, He cannot -- open the door.  It can only be opened from within,  by YOU. 

But, when we do open that door -- He will not hesitate to come in, He will not hesitate to embrace us and give us eternal  life -- regardless of what you and I have done in life.  Why don't you give Him a chance?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Hi Deep and Blue,

 

Somehow, your comments sound more like "hopeful wishing" -- since they provide nothing valid as support.  Hope all you want -- and one day you will stand face to face with Him and explain it all. 

 

True, you may ask, "But, Bill, what support do you have that God is real?"  

 

Glad you asked.   We will start with over 1800 fulfilled prophecies in the Bible.  Then, we jump to all the glorious beauty and wonder of the universe around us -- the masterpieces only He could create.  And, as the topping on this glorious Salvation Sundae -- we have that absolute knowledge of answered prayers -- specifically answered prayers.  Love those sundaes!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Blessed day has nothing to do with it. We are the result of evolution.  There was no making of us. A kind god is an oxymoron. A kind god wouldn't have heaped the troubles on us that he has.  Don't give me the crud about a devine plan.  It is a series of events that came together and produced us. I would like to be around and see the expressions on your face when you find out there is no afterlife in heaven...

I don't know about the rest of you cretins, but God created me so he could have and intellectual equal. Only I, being of superior intellect, am capable of communicating with God. We think alike.

Now, where is my wife with that shot of scotch and my plus. I sure hate having to set her straight. It always hurts me more than it does her.

quote:
Originally Posted by rimshot:

Blessed day has nothing to do with it. We are the result of evolution.  There was no making of us. A kind god is an oxymoron. A kind god wouldn't have heaped the troubles on us that he has.  Don't give me the crud about a devine plan.  It is a series of events that came together and produced us. I would like to be around and see the expressions on your face when you find out there is no afterlife in heaven...

Hi Rim,

 

It is interesting that the atheists will NOT believe that God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1); they will NOT believe that He even exists.   Yet, every atheist DOES credit God with all the bad things that happen in the world.   Now, that, my Friend, is oxymoronic thinking!

 

No, the evil in the world is man's doing.  God created man and the universe to be perfect.  But, in giving man free will, He gave man the ability to accept evil -- which he did when Adam disobeyed God.  And, the rest is history.

 

You say, "I would like to be around and see the expressions on your face when you find out there is no afterlife in heaven..."

 

My Friend, unless you change the direction of your life, i.e., turn to follow Jesus Christ instead of the world -- you will not be able to see my face when I stand in judgment.  For, I will be standing in the Believer's Judgment. 

 

On the other hand, ALL who do not believe, and that would include you if you continue to deny Jesus Christ -- WILL stand before Christ in judgment -- at the Great White Throne Judgment.  But, there will be no believers there; only non-believers. 

 

And, once a person is at that point -- once a person has died not believing -- there is no second chance, no alternative, there is only hell (Revelation 20:11-15).  Do yourself a huge favor -- and change directions right now.  You will be eternally happy if you will.

 

By the way, Rim, welcome to the Religion Forum.  I pray that you have some fertile soil where a seed or two of salvation might be nurtured.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

quote: Originally Posted by HayHereIAm:

Good Grief.......with all the bad that is happening in the world.....can we not all get along?  Sad, Sad, what this world is coming too.


Hi Hay,

 

Welcome to the Religion Forum!  You ask if we cannot all get along.   Unfortunately, with some being Pro-God and others being Anti-God -- it will be difficult to get all of us to sit in the same pew. 

 

But, we who are Pro-God most certainly should be Friends with, and praying for, all of our Anti-God Friends.  And, we should never stop telling them about His Gospel, His Good News -- that God loves all people and God wants all to have eternal life.  That is why He is patient and still waiting on those slow ones to turn from following the world and turn to follow Jesus Christ.

 

However, one day, and we do not know when -- His perfect patience WILL run out -- and the end will come; some to eternal life in Christ; others to eternal life in hell. 

 

Will God send them to hell?  No, every single person who goes to eternal hell -- is going because he/she personally, individually chose to go to hell.  

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bill, it's been established that you are an out and out liar, and once again I challenge you to show where atheists blamed your god for anything. As usual you are twisting words and lying. What we tell you is that IF you want to believe that an imaginary man in the sky gives you all the good crap in the world you also have to give him the blame for bad things. Again bill, you are a liar.

Hello Hay. Resident atheist here. I originally started coming here for intelligent debate. After a short while, I realized that would not be possible. I stay here because I have become friends with folks on both sides of the religious fence. And, when I get to feeling just a little to good about myself I can always come here and get kicked around a little bit. Yeah, I like to "stir the pot" a little every now and then,but as a whole I enjoy the place. Hope you do too.

quote: Originally Posted by bluetick:
quote: Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Somehow, your comments sound more like "hopeful wishing" -- since they provide nothing valid as support.  Hope all you want -- and one day you will stand face to face with Him and explain it all.
I will apologize for my statement. I had an uncharacteristic moment of clarity.

Hi Tick,

I think I got lost in the fog of your "moment of clarity."   Would you like to help me out of the fog and explain in some plain old English that this poor lost soul can understand?  Appreciate your help!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote: Originally Posted by bluetick:
quote: Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Somehow, your comments sound more like "hopeful wishing" -- since they provide nothing valid as support.  Hope all you want -- and one day you will stand face to face with Him and explain it all.
I will apologize for my statement. I had an uncharacteristic moment of clarity.

Hi Tick,

I think I got lost in the fog of your "moment of clarity."   Would you like to help me out of the fog and explain in some plain old English that this poor lost soul can understand?  Appreciate your help!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

 

I'd like to help you out.

Which way did you come in?

 

 

Ok Bill. It was weed induced and I can't seem to get to that "place" again but I will try.

 

Ya'll say that God created all of this from nothing and it took him 6 days.

Science says that this was all created from almost nothing in an instant.

Slim says we invented God. In a flash of wisdom, I hypothesized this was done in an instant from nothing. Now, I got to smoke another one to see if I can figure out what the hell I am trying to say.

Sheesh......religion is hard.

quote:
Originally Posted by bluetick:

Ok, Bill,  It was weed induced and I can't seem to get to that "place" again but I will try.   Ya'll say that God created all of this from nothing and it took him 6 days.  Science says that this was all created from almost nothing in an instant.

 

Slim says we invented God.  In a flash of wisdom, I hypothesized this was done in an instant from nothing.  Now, I got to smoke another one to see if I can figure out what the hell I am trying to say.   Sheesh......religion is hard.


Hi Blue,

 

Maybe you did not notice it --but, you have just named the big difference between Creationism and Darwinian Evolution.   As you said, God created it all from nothing.   And, you said, "Science says that this was all created from almost nothing." 

 

"Almost nothing" implies that there was SOMETHING.  Where did that SOMETHING come from?  Who created the SOMETHING from which everything else was made according to science?

 

Do yo see the huge hole left in the science explanation?    Except for God's divine intervention, matter cannot be created and matter cannot be destroyed.   Darwin tells us that life came from a simple lifeless cell floating in a primordial swamp.   If that were true, who created that simple lifeless cell and the primordial swamp -- since, without God, matter cannot be created?  And, how did life come from a lifeless cell?  Like matter, life cannot be created -- except by divine intervention from God.

 

The same applies to science's explanation using the Big Bang.   An extremely dense, very small object (basketball size?) was hanging in space -- and then it exploded creating all the trillions of massive stars and planets in the billions of galaxies.  All this from that one small object?

 

Once again, we have the same problem.  Since matter cannot be created, except by God, who created the extremely dense object hanging in space?  Who created the space in which it hung?  And, who or what created the energy required to cause it to explode?

 

Can you see our problem?  Atheist tell us that we depend upon "faith" to believe in God.  Yet, we have but to look around us at the artistry and creative power of God.  Yes, we live by faith.  But, it is faith based upon many things -- the world and universe around us, history, prophecies, archeology (science), answered prayers, personal revelations, and His Written Book of Revelations -- the Bible.  We have such a great foundation for our faith.

 

Atheist tell us we live by faith.   Yet, what could take more faith than believing in the Darwinian Evolution and Big Bang theories -- with their many dangling, unanswered questions?  Questions the scientists cannot answer -- but, only believe by faith or stubborn ego or pride, take you choice.

 

Blue, my Friend, don't you think it is time you took God, Jesus Christ, and His Written Word seriously?  So much depends upon having a relationship with Jesus Christ.  

 

Let's say that you know you will live to be 100 years old.  If someone offered to make you richer than Bill Gates, Paul Allen, and Warren Buffet combined -- for one second -- if you will forfeit your 100 years of life to them -- would you do it?

 

Sounds silly, I know.   But, even if you live to be 100 years old; that is but a quick blink of the eye -- compared to eternity.  And, you are, right now, trading YOUR eternity for the brief blink of an eye worth of this world and its pleasures and treasures.  Isn't that even sillier than the proposition I suggested above regarding being the absolute richest man in the world -- for one second?

 

Besides having greater peace in this life -- God has such an abundance of treasures waiting for you to enjoy for eternity -- if you will only, by His grace which He is offering to you, through faith in Jesus Christ -- accept the "gift" of eternal life He has already purchased, "paid in full" -- for you.

 

Think about it, my Friend.  But, not too long -- for none of us knows when the next breath will be our last breath in this mortal body.  The next breath after that -- is in eternity.  And, you can decide right now which path you will take in eternity -- heaven or hell.  You get to choose!  Choose wisely, my Friend.  For eternity is a very, very long time.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

The problem with both theories is the same. The big bang states that this all starts from a tiny [the way I understand it as small as a few molecules] piece of densely compacted matter which spontaneously explodes and from those few molecules all the planets, stars, asteroids,etc.  were formed. I have two problems with that.

1..I ain't no rocket scientist, but I can't understand how all that matter could be compressed down to a few molecules.

2. Where did the original few molecules of matter come from.

To believe this requires a leap of faith.

 

The Christian theory states that God created all this from nothing. My problem here is simple. It requires a leap of faith. Just saying God was always here is not good enough. Where did God come from? I won't even start about all the inconsistencies in the story.

 

I suppose that makes me the ultimate skeptic because I can't sink my teeth into either THEORY. I have to realize nobody has the real answers and probably never will. Certainly not in our life time. I am not knocking your beliefs, but, for me, I find it difficult to understand how reasonable, intelligent people can truly believe either one. For me to believe in something I need proof of its existence. I also understand that I am  limited in my intelligence and I can't expect myself to have an answer, but I am smart enough to not make one up and start believing it.

Speaking for myself, as a Believer, as a Christian and believer in God I personally believe that "God Created".  I can also see where anyone would/could have problems accepting that all creation comes from literally nothing.  The main reason that I have no conflict with "God Created" or accepting this is that I also personally believe that God is beyond human conception or understanding. 

 

Not only do I, personally, believer that God is beyond conception, or understanding, of the human mind and understanding I also believe the actual process of creation is also beyond our capacity to understand and comprehend.  That said I will attempt to explain why I believe "God Created" and also very generally state my personal belief of just what process God used for creation. 

 

I believe, and accept, that God is Spirit existing, dwelling, and living in a realm apart from the Physical that we all live in and dwell in.  This Spiritual realm I believe is far beyond what we can understand or conceive of but is a realm of a much greater dimension than just a two dimensional existence such as our physical world is.   I fully believe that God brought about our physical realm/world/existence out of the Spiritual Realm by the process that could be simple as thought itself.  In other words God brought about Creation/Life/Existence  from His own Thoughts/Mind. 

 

To our human mind this is an impossibility because we think in, live in, exist in the physical realm whereby we require explanations that are compatible with the Physical processes that are defined and explainable from within the Physical or in Scientific terms.  A Spiritual realm would be beyond conception of human capabilities and Science as it would be similar to trying to define a three or multi-dimensional process by restricting the definitions and process to only two dimensions.  I believe the process by which God Created to be one that we have not comprehended or imagined and that is that physical mass can come from or develop from a Spiritual Realm or pure thought itself.  

 

This should not be so difficult to imagine or conceive of because it is very similar to the human mind trying to conceive of and define eternity.  Whether Eternity past or Eternity looking forward.  The concept or thought of such is, I believe, beyond the capability of the human mind.  How can one conceive of an endless line (time) in either a two dimensional reality or a multi-dimensional one?  It is for this very reasons that I do not have a problem with the term "God Created" for it is open ended rather than closed as it allows a process that is beyond conception from a realm that is undefined or unexplored.   

 

The fact that Science or scientist come up with a "Big Bang" or the infinite expansion of unlimited mass from literally nothing, which in itself seems insane and so impractical yet is their explanation or theory for all that exist, including life itself.  An accident, if you will.  It is what they restrict themselves to by restricting the criteria to a physical realm only or looking at it from a two dimensional point of view.  Any theory of how creation got here is restricted to processes that the human mind can comprehend, theorize, or fabricate.  It is restricting yourself to a hypothesis by requiring it to be inclusive of only those things which have been proven, to date, or able to be understood or comprehended with what Science has been able to classify or define and recognize. 

 

Without the possibility of the acceptance of a Spiritual Realm or a third or greater dimension existing apart from what we have the ability to understand or comprehend, and see, we are limited to that which we can propose or hypothesize as potential theories.  Part of that process is  restricting our minds to a two dimensional approach and then forcing or totally eliminating any possibility of God or some deity existing.  We say there is no God because again we restrict God to existing within the Physical realm rather than opening up our minds to the acceptance that there are things existing that are either beyond our ability to recognize and understand. 

Originally Posted by bluetick:

That is very well said GBRK.  Both theories are beyond my comprehension. Where did that infintesimal piece of matter come from, and where did that God come from? I can't wrap my mind around  he/it was always there. I am trapped by logic. Logic tells me that neither is correct.

your logic speaks correctly

 

Great post gbrk. Well said.

 

I don’t think there is a valid argument against what you just said.

 

The same is not true for the big bang theory.

 

There are only a few that can explain the big bang theory and those few ultimately at several points have to use ‘hand waving’ to make it all fit using Hamiltonian, lagrangean and Euler mathematical concepts of real and imaginary parts called ‘complex numbers’.

 

For anyone to claim to understand the big bang is simply anticipation, placing a claim before knowledge.

 

Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Bill keeps talking about 1800 correct prophecies in the Bible. How about giving us a couple of examples. It is vey easy to predictbthe future if you write your prediction after the event.

Here's a Prediction.

You spell worse than I. Oh that's after the fact.

Here's a future prediction. Christ will return to this earth, and the foundations of the worldly

society will be rocked.

 

Skippy

Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Bill keeps talking about 1800 correct prophecies in the Bible. How about giving us a couple of examples. It is vey easy to predictbthe future if you write your prediction after the event.


good luck.

this has been tried before, but he keeps refusing to respond to what the 1800 are.

at best he says " list which of the 1800 you doubt, and i'll adress then"

but you've got to jump through hoops to get any answer out of bill.

he won't stand up for his god, so there is no point in arguing the pint....

 

By Kyle Butt, Apologetics Press:http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=10&article=622

 

“MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”

If you were a Jew standing in the crowd watching Jesus hang on the cross, you would have seen and heard many astonishing things. For one, you would have seen the only totally innocent man ever to live being tortured, mocked, and spit upon. In addition, you would have sat in complete darkness for three straight hours. But some of the most amazing things that happened on that day were the things Jesus said while He was on the cross.

As Jesus was nearing His death, He cried out, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?,” which being translated means “My God, My God, why have You forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34). Many of those around Jesus did not understand what He had said. But any Jew familiar with the Old Testament should have immediately recognized Jesus’ lament as a direct quote from the first line of Psalm 22. King David wrote that psalm about 1,000 years before the death of Jesus. Yet verses 16 through 18 describe in minute detail what was happening at the crucifixion: “They pierced My hands and My feet; I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me. They divide My garments among them, and for My clothing they cast lots.”

Could you imagine having the twenty-second Psalm in your hand (or mind), and watching the soldiers at Jesus’ feet actually casting lots for His clothing (Matthew 27:35)—exactly as the psalmist predicted? With one of Christ’s last breaths on the cross, He tried to get people to understand that He was the Messiah.

As we today look back upon the situation—almost 2000 years after the fact—we see that Jesus proved the Bible had accurately foretold the future, thereby verifying its inspiration. As Isaiah said: “Declare unto us what shall happen: declare ye the former things, what they are, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or show us things to come” (41:22). The very thing the pagans could not do (41:22-24), God’s Word could (see Isaiah 42:8-9).

 

Thanks for posting that Buffalo.  Although many don't believe the accounts recorded in Scripture of what happened at Crucifixion or that it even happened at all I find one of the most interesting comments being that of the Centurion upon observing Christ Spirit pass, at physical death, and observing the Earth Quake making the statement "Truly this was the Son of God". 

Originally Posted by buffalo:

By Kyle Butt, Apologetics Press:http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=10&article=622

 

“MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”

If you were a Jew standing in the crowd watching Jesus hang on the cross, you would have seen and heard many astonishing things. For one, you would have seen the only totally innocent man ever to live being tortured, mocked, and spit upon. In addition, you would have sat in complete darkness for three straight hours. But some of the most amazing things that happened on that day were the things Jesus said while He was on the cross.

As Jesus was nearing His death, He cried out, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?,” which being translated means “My God, My God, why have You forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34). Many of those around Jesus did not understand what He had said. But any Jew familiar with the Old Testament should have immediately recognized Jesus’ lament as a direct quote from the first line of Psalm 22. King David wrote that psalm about 1,000 years before the death of Jesus. Yet verses 16 through 18 describe in minute detail what was happening at the crucifixion: “They pierced My hands and My feet; I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me. They divide My garments among them, and for My clothing they cast lots.”

Could you imagine having the twenty-second Psalm in your hand (or mind), and watching the soldiers at Jesus’ feet actually casting lots for His clothing (Matthew 27:35)—exactly as the psalmist predicted? With one of Christ’s last breaths on the cross, He tried to get people to understand that He was the Messiah.

As we today look back upon the situation—almost 2000 years after the fact—we see that Jesus proved the Bible had accurately foretold the future, thereby verifying its inspiration. As Isaiah said: “Declare unto us what shall happen: declare ye the former things, what they are, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or show us things to come” (41:22). The very thing the pagans could not do (41:22-24), God’s Word could (see Isaiah 42:8-9).

 

This post, I am sure ignorantly, disproves the very point it is trying to make about Biblical prophesy. In a Roman crucifixion, the hands of the crucified were not pierced. IF they had been, the body would have fallen from the cross. The wrists were pierced. Also, the cross depected in all of the Christian churches is not the correct cross. This is just one example, although a pretty important one, that disproves the Bible as a historical document. The OT account was simply incorrect; therefor, it was not a prophesy that came true.

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