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Contract negotiatons are a joke. The owners of Wise Alloys are about to contract Maintence, Electrical, Oilers, Crane operators, etc. , out to a non- union company. Employees now have been told they can put in applications with everyone else to be considered for the jobs they are already doing. And then, they are only hiring about half of the number of people that are currently employed. The owners and Salary personel of Wise Alloys have taken a thriving business from the Shoals that many of our parents, grandparents, helped to make this
community profitable, and have run it in the ground. It is simply that old saying "Money is the root of all EVIL." They are greedy. They have no compassion or respect for their employees. Its okay to ask a whole department to stay over so salary can make their quota, yet they can't tell us if we will have a job tommorow..........
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quote:
Originally posted by justthinking:
Contract negotiatons are a joke. The owners of Wise Alloys are about to contract Maintence, Electrical, Oilers, Crane operators, etc. , out to a non- union company. Employees now have been told they can put in applications with everyone else to be considered for the jobs they are already doing. And then, they are only hiring about half of the number of people that are currently employed. The owners and Salary personel of Wise Alloys have taken a thriving business from the Shoals that many of our parents, grandparents, helped to make this
community profitable, and have run it in the ground. It is simply that old saying "Money is the root of all EVIL." They are greedy. They have no compassion or respect for their employees. Its okay to ask a whole department to stay over so salary can make their quota, yet they can't tell us if we will have a job tommorow..........



I say more power to The owners of Wise Alloys!! Folks in the south hate unions,Republicans hate unions,Reagan took the power from the unions,and most workers at wise voted the conservatives in that hate unions. I don't feel sorry for folks that vote for conservatives then cry about losing their job later. Join the club of the conservative world! Unions are a thing of the pass and no longer has the power to fight as they once did. Reagan put the end to unions.

People from the conservative right have always planted the seeds of propaganda that unions are bad. And the people fall for the propaganda that unions make prices higher. But they are higher anyway, union or non-union. The thing about having unions is that you had better products. Ford and Chevrolet made better cars. You can't say that now.
The unions were an in-between for employer and employee, making sure both sides got fair treatment. For example, your supervisor could not fire you and replace you with a member of his family. You don't have that protection. If a supervisor decides that he wants to replace you with a family member, he may do so. Unions always made sure that the corporations would shop around for the best benefits to provide for their employees, like health insurance at the lowest cost. But for some reason, the people do not want to cheat the rich or take advantage of big corporations, so they are willing to work for low wages, no benefits, and could care less how they are treated on the job as long as they've got a job. Again, welcome to corporate America.
Last edited by Jan55
I think that place was already going down hill before they sold it to Wise. Reynolds seen the future and dumped it on Wise before they started having to do the same thing that Wise is doing now.

As far as outsourcing jobs? well if the Union wont work with the management in the negotiations then what choice does a company have but to cut cost elsewhere. They have to stay competitive in the market place or nobody will have a job or company.
The Labor Union Movement in America

The roots of our country's trade unions extend deep into the early history of America. Several of the Pilgrims arriving at Plymouth Rock in 1620 were working craftsmen. Captain John Smith, who led the ill-fated settlement in 1607 on Virginia's James River, pleaded with his sponsors in London to send him more craftsmen and working people.

Primitive unions, or guilds, of carpenters and cordwainers, cabinet makers and cobblers made their appearance, often temporary, in various cities along the Atlantic seaboard of colonial America. Workers played a significant role in the struggle for independence; carpenters disguised as Mohawk Indians were the "host" group at the Boston Tea Party in 1773. The Continental Congress met in Carpenters Hall in Philadelphia, and there the Declaration of Independence was signed in 1776. In "pursuit of happiness" through shorter hours and higher pay, printers were the first to go on strike, in New York in 1794; cabinet makers struck in 1796; carpenters in Philadelphia in 1797; cordwainers in 1799. In the early years of the 19th century, recorded efforts by unions to improve the workers' conditions, through either negotiation or strike action, became more frequent.

By the 1820s, various unions involved in the effort to reduce the working day from 12 to 10 hours began to show interest in the idea of federation-of joining together in pursuit of common objectives for working people.

As ineffective as these first efforts to organize may have been, they reflected the need of working people for economic and legal protection from exploiting employers. The invention of the steam engine and the growing use of water power to operate machinery were developing a trend toward a factory system not much different from that in England which produced misery and slums for decades. Starting in the 1830s and accelerating rapidly during the Civil War, the factory system accounted for an ever-growing share of American production. It also produced great wealth for a few, grinding poverty for many.

With workers recognizing the power of their employers, the number of local union organizations increased steadily during the mid-19th century. In a number of cities, unions in various trades joined together in citywide federations. The Nation Labor Union, (actually a federation- an organization of local unions) formed in 1866. The NLU eventually persuaded Congress to pass an eight hour day for Federal workers. Never very strong, it was a casualty of the sweeping economic depression of 1873.

Five years later, the Knights of Labor captured the public imagination. Formed in 1869 by Uriah Stephens and expanded rapidly under the leadership of Terrance Powdery, the Knights were an all-embracing organization committed to a cooperative society. Membership was open to all workers, whether they be skilled or unskilled, black or white, male or female. The Knights achieved a membership of nearly 750,000 during the next few years, but the skilled and unskilled workers who had joined the Knights in hope of improvement in their hours and wages found themselves fragmented by the rift between skilled and unskilled workers. Skilled workers tired of labor activity on the part of unskilled workers who were easily replaced. The Knights, an effective labor force, declined after the Haymarket Square riots. In the riot members of the Knights of Labor where accused of throwing a bomb which killed police officers. The Knights, already fragmented, where faced with enormous negative publicity, and eventually disbanded.

The American Federation of Labor was founded by Samuel Gompers in 1886. Gompers, born in 1850, came as a boy with his parents to America from the Jewish slums of London; he entered the cigar-making trade and received much of his education as a "reader" (a worker who read books, newspaper stories, poetry and magazine articles to fellow employees to help break the monotony of their work in the shop) and became a leader of his local union and of the national Cigar Makers Union.

A statement by the founders of the AFL expressed their belief in the need for more effective union organization. "The various trades have been affected by the introduction of machinery, the subdivision of labor, the use of women's and children's labor and the lack of an apprentice system-so that the skilled trades were rapidly sinking to the level of pauper labor," the AFL declared. "To protect the skilled labor of America from being reduced to beggary and to sustain the standard of American workmanship and skill, the trades unions of America have been established." Thus the AFL was a federation that organized only unions of skilled workers.

The Pullman Strike in 1894, at the Pullman plant near Chicago, the American Railroad Union (not affiliated with the AFL and led by Eugene V. Debs, a leading American socialist) struck the company's manufacturing plant and called for a boycott of the handling of Pullman's sleeping and parlor cars on the nation's railroads. Within a week, 125,000 railroad workers were engaged in a sympathy protest strike. The government swore in 3,400 special deputies; later, at the request of the railroad association, President Cleveland moved in federal troops to break the strike-despite a plea by Gov. Aitgeld of Illinois that their presence was unnecessary. Finally a sweeping federal court injunction forced an end to the sympathy strike, and many railroad workers were blacklisted. The Pullman strikers were essentially starved into submissive defeat.

The strike illustrated the increasing tendency of the government to offer moral support and military force to break strikes. The injunction, issued usually and almost automatically by compliant judges on the request of government officials or corporations, became a prime legal weapon against union organizing and action.

A better method of federal intervention occurred during a 1902 strike of anthracite coal miners, under the banner of the United Mine Workers. More than 100,000 miners in northeastern Pennsylvania called a strike on May 12, and kept the mines closed all that summer. When the mine owners refused a UMW proposal for arbitration, President Theodore Roosevelt intervened on Oct. 3, and on Oct. 16 appointed a commission of mediation and arbitration. Five days later the miners returned to their jobs, and five months later the Presidential Commission awarded them a 10 percent wage increase and shorter work days-but not the formal union recognition they had sought.

In 1911 a fire broke out at the Triangle Shirtwaist Co. on New York's lower east side. About 150 employees almost all of them young women-perished when the fire swept through the upper floors of the loft building in which they worked. Many burned to death; others jumped and died. Why so large a casualty list? The safety exits on the burning floors had been securely locked, allegedly to prevent "loss of goods." New York and the country were aroused by the tragedy. A state factory investigation committee headed by Frances Perkins (she was to become Franklin Roosevelt's secretary of labor in 1933, the first woman cabinet member in history) paved the way for many long needed reforms in industrial safety and fire prevention measures.

Another of the historic industrial conflicts prior to World War I occurred in 1912 in the textile mills of Lawrence, Mass. It was led not by an AFL union but by the radical Industrial Workers of the World-the IWW, or the Wobblies, as they were generally known -an organization in frequent verbal and physical conflict with the AFL and its affiliates. The strike in Lawrence started when the mill owners, responding to a state legislature action reducing the work week from 54 to 52, coldly and without prior notice cut the pay rates by a 31/2 percent. The move produced predictable results: a strike of 50,000 textile workers; arrests; fiery statements by the IWW leaders; police and militia attacks on peaceful meetings; and broad public support for the strikers. Some 400 children of strikers were "adopted" by sympathizers. When women strikers and their children were attacked at the railroad station by the police after authorities had decided no more youngsters could leave town, an enraged public protest finally forced the mill owners not only to restore the pay cuts but to increase the workers' wages to more realistic levels.

Congress, at the urging of the AFL, created a separate U.S. Department of Labor with a legislative mandate to protect and extend the rights of wage earners. A Children's Bureau, with a major concern to protect the victims of job exploitation, was created. The LaFollette Seaman's Act required urgently needed improvements in the working conditions on ships of the U.S. merchant marine. Of crucial importance, the Clayton Act of 1914 made explicit the legal concept that "the labor of a human being is not a commodity or article of commerce" and hence not subject to the Sherman Act provisions which had been the legal basis for injunctions against union organization. Clayton gave legalized strikes and boycotts and peaceful picketing, and dramatically limited the use of injunctions in labor disputes. Little wonder that AFL President Gompers hailed the Clayton Act as a "magna carta."

The "Roaring Twenties," nostalgically depicted in some movies and musical comedies as an era of unbounded prosperity and champagne-induced gaiety, fell a good deal short of those marks for most American working people. Throughout the decade, unemployment rose, quietly, almost anonymously. It was a time of considerable hardship for many of the unemployed, long before the days of unemployment insurance or supplementary benefits.

The post world war I depression brought wages down sharply and caused major erosion of union membership-a loss of about a million members in the years from 1920 to 1923. The difficulties were multiplied by the decision of the National Association of Manufacturers and other antiunion "open shop" groups to wipe out or seriously diminish the status of American , can unions. The fear of "Bolsheviks," often hysterical, that was nurtured by the Russian communist revolution was used gleefully by the antiunion forces. As early as 1913, President John Kirby of the NAM had decided the trade union movement was "an un-American, illegal and infamous conspiracy." As the Senate Civil Liberties Committee, headed by Sen. Robert LaFollette Jr., reported years later, such demands as "union recognition, shorter hours, higher wages, regulation of child labor and the hours and wages of women and children in industry" came to be seen-under the influence of the NAM-sponsored 'American Plan' -as aspects of the alleged communist revolution from which the anti-labor employers wanted to save the nation. Strikebreaking, blacklisting and vigilanteeism became, for a time, acceptable aspects of this new and spurious brand of patriotism. The "yellow dog contract," which workers had to sign in order to get a job, bound them never to join a union; at the same time, the corporations promoted employee representation plans or company unions-pale and generally useless imitations of the real thing.

In November 1935, John L. Lewis announced the creation of the CIO, the Committee for Industrial Organization, composed of about a dozen leaders of AFL unions, to carry on the effort for industrial unionism. Industrial Unions are unions that organize an entire industry regardless of skill. In short they where unions of unskilled workers. Lewis, born in Iowa in 1880 of Welsh immigrant parents, went to work in the coal mines and became president of the Mine Workers in 1920. An orator of remarkable virtuosity, Lewis voiced increasingly bitter attacks on his colleagues on the AFL Executive Council; his words helped speed the break. In 1936, the various CIO unions were expelled from the Federation. In 1938 the CIO held its first constitutional convention and became the Congress of Industrial Organizations.

In any event, the CIO began a remarkably successful series of organizing campaigns, and over the next few years, brought industrial unionism to large sectors of basic American industry. At the same time the unions remaining in the AFL registered even more substantial gains in membership. During World War 11, the AFL and CIO, while preserving areas of disagreement, began to find more substantial bases for working together on problems affecting all workers. In time many of the old antagonisms had died out and the old issues had been resolved. The stage was set for merger of the two labor groups. They were reunited into the AFL-CIO at a convention in New York opening on Dec. 5, 1955.

The AFL-CIO merger and its accompanying agreements brought about the virtual elimination of jurisdictional disputes between unions that had plagued the labor movement and alienated public sympathy in earlier years. The unions placed a new priority on organizing workers in areas, industries and plants where no effective system of labor representation yet existed. In many cases, it meant crossing the barriers of old thinking and tired methods to reach the employees of companies which for years had resisted unions.

For the past forty years there has been a steady decline in both union membership and influence. There are several reasons for such a decline, the first having to do with employers keeping their businesses union-free. Some were active in their opposition and even hired consultants to devise legal strategies to combat unions. Other employers put workers on the management team by appointing them to the board of directors or establishing profit-sharing plans to reward employees. The second reason for union decline is that new additions to the labor force have traditionally had little loyalty to organized labor. Because more and more women and teenagers are working and their incomes tend to be a family's second income, they have a proclivity towards accepting lower wages, thus defeating the purpose of organized labor. The third and possibly the most important reason for the decline in unions is that they are victims of their own success. Unions raised their wages substantially above the wages paid to nonunion workers. Therefore, many union-made products have become so expensive that sales were lost to less expensive foreign competitors and nonunion producers. This resulted in companies having to cut back on production, which caused some workers to lose their jobs, and hence, unions some of their members. Also, the recent shift in this country towards technology and service has made our economy less reliant in the types of industrial jobs that tended to be union strongholds. Today's worker tends to more highly educated and tends to the professional, white coller class. All of these have conspired to decrease union membership.
Yes, Unions were good and needed at one time. There are a lot of good honest hard working union workers out there. But unions are not what they once were.

Now they help keep drug heads, alcoholics, and lazy people on the job and they drive up the cost of doing business.

How many Union members and their families shop at Wal-Mart? Union members cut their own throats they don't need to blame businesses.



PBA, you are way off base in your comments about the GOP. Tell me what the Democrats have done to keep jobs in the United States and to keep unions strong. Both parties are equal in blame for down fall of the USA.
Unions have helped, in the past, but are stuck in the past. Knowledge workers are the key to keeping jobs in the future. Sending jobs overseas cost some jobs, automation cost many more.

Unions need to anticipate worker skills and ensure they have future needed skills. Either negotiate with company or develop their own training and certification programs.
My grandfather was one of the oldest ever to retire from Reynolds(Wise) @ 72. He was a union member his entire life and Only took 2 sick days in over 20 years. My uncle still works there, has for about 20 yrs. My dad is Intl Rep for the Operators, my sister is a Machinest at WISE and I am a Teamster at the Ferry. I have grown up with so much pride and confidence in unions. Unions ensure that they supply a skilled workforce. I think it is so sad that Employers here are trying to take the best jobs away from the people that live here. Through my union I am guaranteed to be treated fairly and paid an honest wage. Crane operators are no joke. Those men and women have their co-workers lives in their hands, along with thousands and millions of dollars. If that was me flagging a crane I know I would want the best trained drug free man running that crane. My dad was a crane operator for 10 yrs and on a union job your agent ensures you dont have to carry through with an unsafe job. They cant threaten to fire you for risking your life or the life of someone else. If they get away with paying old Joe 5 bucks less and no insurance - then tomorrow they will want to pay his buddy 3 bucks less than that and so on. Its pitiful. In my job as a QC inspector I can be sent to prison for falsely signing documents, underinspecting, cutting corners not to mention the responsibility of safety in a nuclear plant and the parts that will run it. I am paid according to that responsibility. That is thanks to my union representation. My union along with federal law ensures they cant threaten me into making a decision that might put someones life in danger either at the plant or in the general public. Our livelyhood depends on the safety and success of these businesses. We live in these areas, send our children to school here, buy houses. And in turn what do they do? want to get out of paying us insurance for our families, want to pay us less and less. The only decent paying jobs here are Union jobs or direct results of them. If they cut the pay of these families who will stay? Who will move? Who will buy those houses? Cars, Insurance? And eat at all of the 5000 resturaunts we have here? Colbert, TVA MSC, Browns Ferry, WISE, The Dam are all a great source of income here and its a shame that we couldnt hold onto the union at WISE. (by the way, I have not confirmed this)????
glad to see i stured up s**** just got off work I am is 13 hrs ahead of u. anbody thats anti-union the "party" wants you!!!strike over here and see whats happens!!!if u r anti-union need to join the "party"... a dr. on a cruse trip at dinner once bit""h about unions killing America and I said u belong to the biggest UNION in Americia, and wanted to know what I ment,I said , AMA!!!! gotta go find supper if its still hoppin! love then frogs!!
IT DEPENDS ON WHO IS KICKING THE CAN as to which way the can flys...both sides non-union and union supporters have good points to debate...
The fact is NAFTA...and now the North American Union Treaty has changed the economics of the world completely..no longer can companies compete with other companies who are sending the same product back into america..Those companies operate without the constraint costs of :worksman comp, health insurance, pensions, vacations,sick days,higher wages, etc...
Now! The question is who is buying the products that can be bought cheaper than american made... The answer is simple non-union and union people alike..
Thoughts-words-deeds are tools that create our reality...the reality of today is our population demands those products made else where at a lower price... If the American Company can not be competitive with his competitors...then the doors will close...
The Question is: Which does the American worker want...a full loaf that will soon no longer exist because of the doors closing...or 1/2 loaf where there is something on the table...
Personally, I think Unions have done a wonderful job in getting the american worker out of the sweat shops...unfortunately they got to powerful and went beyond reason in making a company profitable...they quit working as a team with the management, and somewhere along the way it became two categories them and us...
Yes! There are still a lot of sweat shops that exist. I don't have to name them, you or a family member probably works in some...but this up to the workers who work there to band together and form an employee negotiation team to talk over issues with management.
The problem is a lot of employees are afraid of losing their job by being assertive in their list..why? Low education, their age, limited technical skills, health reasons, etc... the list goes on..and these are valid reasons...

To me, Wise Management is doing what they have to do to keep their company competitive...in order to lower price...you have to lower expenses...part of reduction of expenses is labor cost...you either do in by reducing personnel, wages, benefit cost, and a lot of times all just listed...
Get adjusted...the worst is yet to come...
quote:
Originally posted by justthinking:
Contract negotiatons are a joke. The owners of Wise Alloys are about to contract Maintence, Electrical, Oilers, Crane operators, etc. , out to a non- union company.


It's about darn time!

The union has had a stranglehold on industry and has stifled growth in the Shoals for far too long. I sure hope Wise continues the practice.
quote:
Originally posted by Confederate Pride:
Yes, Unions were good and needed at one time. There are a lot of good honest hard working union workers out there. But unions are not what they once were.

Now they help keep drug heads, alcoholics, and lazy people on the job and they drive up the cost of doing business.

How many Union members and their families shop at Wal-Mart? Union members cut their own throats they don't need to blame businesses.



PBA, you are way off base in your comments about the GOP. Tell me what the Democrats have done to keep jobs in the United States and to keep unions strong. Both parties are equal in blame for down fall of the USA.



Take a look around at Corporate America, where Employers take harsh advantage of workers, and SEE that Unions are needed more now than ever before.

Our forefathers who bled and died to make life easier for the American worker did it for NOTHING, not with the brain washing that has slowly happened over the last 35 years.
quote:
Originally posted by Confederate Pride:
Yes, Unions were good and needed at one time. There are a lot of good honest hard working union workers out there. But unions are not what they once were.

Now they help keep drug heads, alcoholics, and lazy people on the job and they drive up the cost of doing business.

How many Union members and their families shop at Wal-Mart? Union members cut their own throats they don't need to blame businesses.



PBA, you are way off base in your comments about the GOP. Tell me what the Democrats have done to keep jobs in the United States and to keep unions strong. Both parties are equal in blame for down fall of the USA.



Confederate Pride, I thought you knew Republicans have always been against the unions. Democrats? What democrats? I did not know we had a democrat party anymore and if we do the democrats have join ranks with the republicans.
quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
quote:
Originally posted by Confederate Pride:
Yes, Unions were good and needed at one time. There are a lot of good honest hard working union workers out there. But unions are not what they once were.

Now they help keep drug heads, alcoholics, and lazy people on the job and they drive up the cost of doing business.

How many Union members and their families shop at Wal-Mart? Union members cut their own throats they don't need to blame businesses.



PBA, you are way off base in your comments about the GOP. Tell me what the Democrats have done to keep jobs in the United States and to keep unions strong. Both parties are equal in blame for down fall of the USA.



Take a look around at Corporate America, where Employers take harsh advantage of workers, and SEE that Unions are needed more now than ever before.

Our forefathers who bled and died to make life easier for the American worker did it for NOTHING, not with the brain washing that has slowly happened over the last 35 years.


At 95% employment it is really hard to take advantage of your employees. There are plenty of jobs out there.
well it sat. morning getting ready for work. being an ex-pat I only have to work 6 days a week.(but well paid)a plant has an expected "lifetime" and alloys is over 50 years old. right now i'm working on reinstalling 2 alum mills that came from the states.plastic containers put reynolds out of buis. du REYNOLDS does not exist anymore cause the family wanted to cash out!and get out of EPA clean-up.one day they will rip up those mill stands and sell them to China or India where they have "slave" labor. the new steel plant in south ala. will have new tech. and be with German mills (SMS or VAI) and they will be built UNION because the Germans are the most UNION country in the world.! Wal-mart left Germany because they were going to have to unionise.you get what you pay for.look at the non-union water treatment plant at Barton. how long and how much money it cost to fix it! they have union contractors in the Shoals that would have done it right the first time.
I am a union worker. I also have family members on both sides of this fence. But anyone who thinks that doing a way with the unions has obviously never worked in the type of work we do, and do not realize the need for the union. As for the comments about unions keeping alcoholics, drug addicts and lazy people people working- I will have you know that this is the job I do to take care of my children. I am not lazy. I am not an alcohlic nor do I do drugs. I was raised by a father who was a union worker. My grandfathers were both union workers. My uncle, my brother-in-laws, my friends, all union workers. We are good people trying to stand up for our rights. We do not want what we have not earned. Maybe you want to work 20 hours a day for straight pay and be told when you will and wont stay over on a job. Maybe you want to have people who are not qualified to come in and do jobs that could be potentially dangerous to yourself and others. Maybe you want to lose the health insurance for you and your children. I don't. This is why I support my union. When Wise Alloys fails and the business is no longer here, many non-union people will see jsut how much this company meant to our economic community as well. Maybe then you will see that the unions aren't such a bad thing when your kids are going to work at the chicken plant with the mexicans (if they are lucky).
Justthinking,

You bring up an interesting point. Unions favor amnesty for illegal aliens and the importation of more of them. why?

A large pool of workers drives down wages for everyone. Illegal aliens can nail boards, hang drywall, drive trucks, and cook in kitchens as well as anyone. But they will do it for wages Americans will not accept. I think the unions are working to their own disadvantage by encouraging them to be here.

An interesting note, the Teamsters Union is asking Americans to protest Mexican trucks on American roads. BUT, the Teamsters are, according to their own website, in solidarity with illegal aliens here.

http://www.teamster.org/06news/hn_060419_2.asp

Is this confusion or hypocrisy?

DF
quote:
Originally posted by pipepat:
well it sat. morning getting ready for work. being an ex-pat I only have to work 6 days a week.(but well paid)a plant has an expected "lifetime" and alloys is over 50 years old. right now i'm working on reinstalling 2 alum mills that came from the states.plastic containers put reynolds out of buis. du REYNOLDS does not exist anymore cause the family wanted to cash out!and get out of EPA clean-up.one day they will rip up those mill stands and sell them to China or India where they have "slave" labor. the new steel plant in south ala. will have new tech. and be with German mills (SMS or VAI) and they will be built UNION because the Germans are the most UNION country in the world.! Wal-mart left Germany because they were going to have to unionise.you get what you pay for.look at the non-union water treatment plant at Barton. how long and how much money it cost to fix it! they have union contractors in the Shoals that would have done it right the first time.



You make a good point! Union products are better made and last longer. union products are safer!
Since the demise of unions people have been working longer and harder just to keep up. Safety regulations are lax and worker injuries are up. Productivity is up, profits are up, CEO salaries are up and the Stocks are up. Yet the workers share gets smaller.

We don't have 95% full employment. Even though they claim that unemployment is only 5% employment is at around 65%. The unemployment figures come from who is collecting benefits. When your benefits run out your no longer counted, whether you have a job or not. That also doesn't take into account those who are underemployed, forced to take low wages because they can't find decent wages.

Unions were split for a while over immigrants but now have realized unionized immigrants help us all. They oppose the truck drivers from Mexico because they have lower standards and requirements for truck drivers in Mexico and they are a part of NAFTA and receive lower wages. They are here to break the unions.

American workers need to unionize and create international unions with workers around the world. Corporate Globalization is driving wages down by taking good paying jobs to 3rd world countries and creating sweatshops. The people cannot live in these wages and are forced to immigrate. It's happening world wide. Corporations are forcing workers to compete with each other for who will work for the least, and countries to have the least safety and environmental regulations. It has been coined as a "race to the bottom."
quote:
Originally posted by justthinking:
I am a union worker. I also have family members on both sides of this fence. But anyone who thinks that doing a way with the unions has obviously never worked in the type of work we do, and do not realize the need for the union. As for the comments about unions keeping alcoholics, drug addicts and lazy people people working- I will have you know that this is the job I do to take care of my children. I am not lazy. I am not an alcohlic nor do I do drugs. I was raised by a father who was a union worker. My grandfathers were both union workers. My uncle, my brother-in-laws, my friends, all union workers. We are good people trying to stand up for our rights. We do not want what we have not earned. Maybe you want to work 20 hours a day for straight pay and be told when you will and wont stay over on a job. Maybe you want to have people who are not qualified to come in and do jobs that could be potentially dangerous to yourself and others. Maybe you want to lose the health insurance for you and your children. I don't. This is why I support my union. When Wise Alloys fails and the business is no longer here, many non-union people will see jsut how much this company meant to our economic community as well. Maybe then you will see that the unions aren't such a bad thing when your kids are going to work at the chicken plant with the mexicans (if they are lucky).


I work in a chicken plant that is unionized, so what does that say? And just like all the things mentioned previously about insurance, providing for my family, paying for my college education, this has all come from this chicken plant job!
quote:
Originally posted by Do the Right Thing:
quote:
Originally posted by justthinking:
I am a union worker. I also have family members on both sides of this fence. But anyone who thinks that doing a way with the unions has obviously never worked in the type of work we do, and do not realize the need for the union. As for the comments about unions keeping alcoholics, drug addicts and lazy people people working- I will have you know that this is the job I do to take care of my children. I am not lazy. I am not an alcohlic nor do I do drugs. I was raised by a father who was a union worker. My grandfathers were both union workers. My uncle, my brother-in-laws, my friends, all union workers. We are good people trying to stand up for our rights. We do not want what we have not earned. Maybe you want to work 20 hours a day for straight pay and be told when you will and wont stay over on a job. Maybe you want to have people who are not qualified to come in and do jobs that could be potentially dangerous to yourself and others. Maybe you want to lose the health insurance for you and your children. I don't. This is why I support my union. When Wise Alloys fails and the business is no longer here, many non-union people will see jsut how much this company meant to our economic community as well. Maybe then you will see that the unions aren't such a bad thing when your kids are going to work at the chicken plant with the mexicans (if they are lucky).


I work in a chicken plant that is unionized, so what does that say? And just like all the things mentioned previously about insurance, providing for my family, paying for my college education, this has all come from this chicken plant job!



I work in a chicken plant that is unionized, so what does that say? And just like all the things mentioned previously about insurance, providing for my family, paying for your college education, this has all come from this chicken plant job! Yep, and by the time you pay your taxes, your high insurance,paying for your college That leaves very little for you to provide for your family. But if you like that then keep thinking the way you do. Then again you may be the CEO of the chicken plant, and that may explain why you feel the way you do.
I'm an hourly worker, who pays $31/wk for family insurance coverage. It is hard for me to provide for my family, but I know that my future is going to come through education. I'm doing what I have to do at this point in my life to provide a better future for me and my family. I was always told that honest work is honest work. I've seen alot of honest hard working people have their jobs saved because of our union (UFCW). The Shoals area needs more better paying hourly jobs, with decent benefits. The cold reality in this global economy is this: take cuts in pay and benefits, or have employers move work to underpaid workers in Mexico, India, and China. It's that simple. The day of hourly workers having good paying jobs to provide for their families is dissappearing in this country. Unions or no union, when the borders were opened for free trade, this is the result.
You got to understand all the skilled intelligent capable managers and salaried people have been gone for some time. Wise is not Reynolds, it is a third rate company with third rate managers, and third rate companies don't know how to manage except by drastic cost cutting without regard for the consequences. All that is left in management is scrubs with egos, the worst kind. They have no creativity or imagination. What you will see next is quality continue to suffer until they lose customers and eventually either close or someone buy it and shutter the production capacity. If anyone continues to work there they must suffer the whims and bad decisions, that's the way it works. It's an old plant with old equipment and without new large amounts of capital (which they dont have) it will whither away, the fact they have decided to take on the unions is a signal they are close to withering. So act accordingly.
The FACT that they are allowing ABB into their organization to SAVE them is something that amazes me!!!! It totally proves that the management has NOT been doing their jobs for a very long time, or else ABB has bought stock into that location.

ABB is one of the highest paid contractors that are operating world wide, and Wise can AFFORD to hire their serices.

Everyone take a whiff, there is something fishy going on there and it is NOT going to help our Shoals Economy.

Now, as it stands, TMC is doing a pretty good job with local labor, but they are (supposedly) be a separate entity from Wise.

I think this is a money game that most of us do NOT want to see played out.

You guys need to really read up on ABB and their past practices and the way THEY do people. THey aren't going to be put in place to "SAVE" Wise, they will close it with the "CLASS" that they are so experienced at.
I wonder why Wise didn't contract with ABB to replace their Engineering and Information Systems departments? Those are right in ABB's wheelhouse of speciality. ABB could do a much more efficient job and I'm sure could expand their cost savings. Those are salaried not union jobs so would be no resistence. A gimme.

IMO Look next in 6 months or so for them to contract out production workers (Steelworkers Union) to an employment service such as Sara Lee uses for their production force. It's the logical next step.
quote:
Originally posted by EvilGenius:
I wonder why Wise didn't contract with ABB to replace their Engineering and Information Systems departments? Those are right in ABB's wheelhouse of speciality. ABB could do a much more efficient job and I'm sure could expand their cost savings. Those are salaried not union jobs so would be no resistence. A gimme.

IMO Look next in 6 months or so for them to contract out production workers (Steelworkers Union) to an employment service such as Sara Lee uses for their production force. It's the logical next step.



The public will be the LAST to know, and the workers too, but it isn't going to be a GOOD thing. And it is going to cost our area dearly!!!

I am wondering why they didn't turn it all over to TMC if they HAD to make any moves?? They have all the TECH people at their beck and call, so why ABB???

For anyone who don't know TMC, it is LOCALLY OPERATED, and some VERY good folks there who has the benefits of tech support and is housed within the confines of Wise. WHY ABB???

Something underhanded is in the air, smell it??
If anyone wants to take the time to Google ABB you will find that it is DEFINITELY NOT an AMERICAN COMPANY, and that it's stock was down this past week, bet it goes up next week with all the aluminum makers in the USA.

This is really looking BAD for Wise, and for the Managers who professed to be MANAGERS all these years.

This isn't about "BREAKING THE UNIONS" it is about Corporate America taking over, we are just now getting a nice BITE of it, we have only previously had a taste.
Last edited by Kindred
You're on the wrong track, this Wise project will be a drop in the bucket to ABB, and by the way they are doing very well with power generation plants and big projects in Europe, there stock is projected to do well over the next year or so, the Wise project to them, would be like you having a yard sale to make a few bucks. I would focus your conspiracy theory on Wise management, ABB is just taking advantage.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
Justthinking,

You bring up an interesting point. Unions favor amnesty for illegal aliens and the importation of more of them. why?

A large pool of workers drives down wages for everyone. Illegal aliens can nail boards, hang drywall, drive trucks, and cook in kitchens as well as anyone. But they will do it for wages Americans will not accept. I think the unions are working to their own disadvantage by encouraging them to be here.

An interesting note, the Teamsters Union is asking Americans to protest Mexican trucks on American roads. BUT, the Teamsters are, according to their own website, in solidarity with illegal aliens here.

http://www.teamster.org/06news/hn_060419_2.asp

Is this confusion or hypocrisy?

DF


Obviously you are not a Teamster, Union member or informed. The Teamsters OF COURSE do not back a work force of truck drivers who are not safe, not regulated, not inspected, possibly not drug tested etc. BUT, we do stand up for the rights of ALL Americans regardless of race, ethnic background, gender or religious affiliation. These trucks coming from Mexico are not AMERICAN trucks.
The thing ABB likes NOTHING better than is to TAKE OVER a Corporation who (ON PAPER) shows a decline in business. They are not in the USA, and their "take over" rate here is VERY high.

I personally wish they would stay in Sweden, or Switzerland, wherever they originate. The United States of America HAS people who KNOW how to pull a business out of the mud. Just ask Lee Iococca (SP?)
I personally have never worked a union job but I work at a plant where the production workers are union and I have never heard any complaints about it. I do know of some newer plants in the area that are union. Take SCA in Barton, union, members of the Steel workers union. SCA employees over 400 people and many of those jobs are hourly union jobs. It is my understanding that the salary positions down there are not union. The new plant coming in down in Barton will be union as well. They too will be members of the Steel workers union so I hear. It was a concern for managemnet at SCA that the new plant would pay more to start than they do and were afraid they would loose employees to National Alabama. They union had told them that National Alabama would have a lower hire in rate then SCA but that turned out to be false.

As far as Wise is concerned those folks should probably start looking for a job. That place has been on the way down since before Wise took over. I had a lady from wise contact me some time back about a position with them and I told her I wasn't interested. I like to have a little security with my job and to me that place is a couple years from being an empty building.
quote:
Originally posted by cjtl1000r:
I personally have never worked a union job but I work at a plant where the production workers are union and I have never heard any complaints about it. I do know of some newer plants in the area that are union. Take SCA in Barton, union, members of the Steel workers union. SCA employees over 400 people and many of those jobs are hourly union jobs. It is my understanding that the salary positions down there are not union. The new plant coming in down in Barton will be union as well. They too will be members of the Steel workers union so I hear. It was a concern for managemnet at SCA that the new plant would pay more to start than they do and were afraid they would loose employees to National Alabama. They union had told them that National Alabama would have a lower hire in rate then SCA but that turned out to be false.

As far as Wise is concerned those folks should probably start looking for a job. That place has been on the way down since before Wise took over. I had a lady from wise contact me some time back about a position with them and I told her I wasn't interested. I like to have a little security with my job and to me that place is a couple years from being an empty building.



In ALL the places that employee union workers, the Salary people do not belong to a Union. Their force does, but they don't.

So SCA and the New plant are just falling in line with everyone else it looks like.
For all of those people that are anti union or hate unions. Where do you think the 8 hour work day came from? The Union. Where do you think overtime pay came from? The Union. Where do you think family insurance or benefits came from? The union. Where do you think the safer work environments came from? The Union. So the next time you have to work over 8 hours in a day and not get paid for it you can say I hate the union. The Union isn't just about more money on the check its about alot more.
Union workers are all skilled craftsmen who serve apprenticeship programs and learn the trade that they have chosen to work and not just get hired off the street cause he can spell pipefitter, electrician or teamster. They are skilled craftsmen who take pride in their work and they support america and american products.
Truer words were NEVER spoken!!!

But, sad thing is that the men who bled and died getting these changes in effect has sadly been forgotten and replaced by a new society that thinks that employers have the rights to do anything, anytime, anywhere they want.

We have taken steps BACKWARD in the last 10 years instead of FORWARD. Sad huh?
quote:
Originally posted by rll_tide@yahoo.com:
For all of those people that are anti union or hate unions. Where do you think the 8 hour work day came from? The Union. Where do you think overtime pay came from? The Union. Where do you think family insurance or benefits came from? The union. Where do you think the safer work environments came from? The Union. So the next time you have to work over 8 hours in a day and not get paid for it you can say I hate the union. The Union isn't just about more money on the check its about alot more.
Union workers are all skilled craftsmen who serve apprenticeship programs and learn the trade that they have chosen to work and not just get hired off the street cause he can spell pipefitter, electrician or teamster. They are skilled craftsmen who take pride in their work and they support america and american products.


Why do most of them and their families take pride in shopping at Wal-Mart buying imported goods? What does the union do to insure that it members are drug free while on the job?
quote:
Originally posted by Confederate Pride:
quote:
Originally posted by rll_tide@yahoo.com:
For all of those people that are anti union or hate unions. Where do you think the 8 hour work day came from? The Union. Where do you think overtime pay came from? The Union. Where do you think family insurance or benefits came from? The union. Where do you think the safer work environments came from? The Union. So the next time you have to work over 8 hours in a day and not get paid for it you can say I hate the union. The Union isn't just about more money on the check its about alot more.
Union workers are all skilled craftsmen who serve apprenticeship programs and learn the trade that they have chosen to work and not just get hired off the street cause he can spell pipefitter, electrician or teamster. They are skilled craftsmen who take pride in their work and they support america and american products.


Why do most of them and their families take pride in shopping at Wal-Mart buying imported goods? What does the union do to insure that it members are drug free while on the job?



CP, I don't think you will find many UNION wives or Union husbands or Union members shopping at Walmart. It is one of the most detested stores on the list for Union members/families.

IF a Union member goes to Walmart, I just becha they don't come out with something made in China, Taiwan or Korea. Union Members LOOK at what they buy.

Union members are drug free on the job unless it is an approved prescription. Random drug testing has made it possible for Unions to be CLEAN and for Employers to expect a CLEAN workforce.

IMMEDIATE FIRING occurs when someone tests dirty.
I guess that 5 union workers I know are the exception. I know several of them that blame shopping at Wal-Mart on their wives. I know for a fact they brag about doing drugs on the job. They have been caught and had to go to rehab but came right back to work and started using again. They are still on the job.

I also know good union members but I still think more could be done to crackdown on the bad ones.
quote:
Originally posted by Confederate Pride:
I guess that 5 union workers I know are the exception. I know several of them that blame shopping at Wal-Mart on their wives. I know for a fact they brag about doing drugs on the job. They have been caught and had to go to rehab but came right back to work and started using again. They are still on the job.

I also know good union members but I still think more could be done to crackdown on the bad ones.



You and I both know there are exceptions to EVERYTHING in this world.

Let them blame their wives if they want, let them take their drugs, but when they are out of a job, or working for six bucks an hour, let them scream in their OWN backyard, lol.

Most Union people take their jobs seriously.
quote:
For all of those people that are anti union or hate unions. Where do you think the 8 hour work day came from? The Union. Where do you think overtime pay came from? The Union. Where do you think family insurance or benefits came from? The union. Where do you think the safer work environments came from? The Union. So the next time you have to work over 8 hours in a day and not get paid for it you can say I hate the union. The Union isn't just about more money on the check its about alot more.



WHAT???

There is not one bit of truth to what you have written.
quote:
Originally posted by Invex:
quote:
For all of those people that are anti union or hate unions. Where do you think the 8 hour work day came from? The Union. Where do you think overtime pay came from? The Union. Where do you think family insurance or benefits came from? The union. Where do you think the safer work environments came from? The Union. So the next time you have to work over 8 hours in a day and not get paid for it you can say I hate the union. The Union isn't just about more money on the check its about alot more.



WHAT???

There is not one bit of truth to what you have written.



I think someone should read HISTORY!!! Big Grin

There is more than one word of truth to what he said there.

And of course the Auto Industry pays more than six bucks, they are UNION, which is the POINT of this post. Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by Invex:
quote:
For all of those people that are anti union or hate unions. Where do you think the 8 hour work day came from? The Union. Where do you think overtime pay came from? The Union. Where do you think family insurance or benefits came from? The union. Where do you think the safer work environments came from? The Union. So the next time you have to work over 8 hours in a day and not get paid for it you can say I hate the union. The Union isn't just about more money on the check its about alot more.



WHAT???

There is not one bit of truth to what you have written.



Actually, it is all the truth.
quote:
Originally posted by DHS-86:
quote:
Originally posted by Invex:
quote:
For all of those people that are anti union or hate unions. Where do you think the 8 hour work day came from? The Union. Where do you think overtime pay came from? The Union. Where do you think family insurance or benefits came from? The union. Where do you think the safer work environments came from? The Union. So the next time you have to work over 8 hours in a day and not get paid for it you can say I hate the union. The Union isn't just about more money on the check its about alot more.



WHAT???

There is not one bit of truth to what you have written.



Actually, it is all the truth.


Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Confederate Pride:
I guess that 5 union workers I know are the exception. I know for a fact they brag about doing drugs on the job. They have been caught and had to go to rehab but came right back to work and started using again. They are still on the job.


I also know several union members who do drugs on the job. One of them got caught selling drugs on the job and the union fought for him to keep his job.
TenPercent, as stated above, there are bad pennies in EVERY walk of life. NO ONE denies that they can find a FEW Union workers who don't live up to what they should, but for the MOST part, they do.

Did you turn these people in??? Did you do YOUR part to make your jobsite safer??? Or did you just turn a blind eye against it???
quote:
Originally posted by Invex:
I am very grateful to the unions. It is the reason the auto industry is moving south. If you think the wages are $6 an hour...better look again.


Well let me let you in on a secret Invex; Toyota already is complaining about the wages which are in the ($23.00 an hour range NOW)they have to PAY in the United States, and are in the process of reversing that trend. It may even someday soon make it back to that SILLY $6.00 an hour of yours!!

As soon as they get control here our workers will be just like their conterparts in Japan, China, Korea, ect,ect, you will be working 7 days a week ( overtime?? WHATS THAT?)for practically nothing. Benefits FUG-GIT-About-it!! HEALTH CARE? (you get sick too bad your fired) Vacations? HA!HA! And after they get control their great Quality Products go back to Japanese standards of Poor Craftsmanship like after WW2.

You Remember that WE the UNITED STATES gave Japan all those NEWER FACTORIES after WW2 to build up their economy putting our factories at a disadvantage of NOT having newer factories and tools to build automobiles as efficent. And of course the "CHEAP LABOR" (almost slave labor) with none of the above benefits to boot.

So please don't put the UNIONS DOWN they are the reason you can afford to buy that computer your writing that Anti Union PUKE on.

Semper Fi,(Carry on Citizen's)
quote:
Originally posted by Delldude:
quote:
Originally posted by Invex:
I am very grateful to the unions. It is the reason the auto industry is moving south. If you think the wages are $6 an hour...better look again.


Well let me let you in on a secret Invex; Toyota already is complaining about the wages which are in the ($23.00 an hour range NOW)they have to PAY in the United States, and are in the process of reversing that trend. It may even someday soon make it back to that SILLY $6.00 an hour of yours!!

As soon as they get control here our workers will be just like their conterparts in Japan, China, Korea, ect,ect, you will be working 7 days a week ( overtime?? WHATS THAT?)for practically nothing. Benefits FUG-GIT-About-it!! HEALTH CARE? (you get sick too bad your fired) Vacations? HA!HA! And after they get control their great Quality Products go back to Japanese standards of Poor Craftsmanship like after WW2.

You Remember that WE the UNITED STATES gave Japan all those NEWER FACTORIES after WW2 to build up their economy putting our factories at a disadvantage of NOT having newer factories and tools to build automobiles as efficent. And of course the "CHEAP LABOR" (almost slave labor) with none of the above benefits to boot.

So please don't put the UNIONS DOWN they are the reason you can afford to buy that computer your writing that Anti Union PUKE on.

Semper Fi,(Carry on Citizen's)




YAY, VERY well said, and it is the TRUTH, but no one will believe it until they SEE it firsthand. Hope they get along better in the unemployment line than they do here. Big Grin
NO ONE BELIEVED ROSS PEROT EITHER...the unions supported William Clinton...and he is the one who signed the NAFTA treaty into affect...

God gave us three tools to create our reality...

THOUGHTS...WORDS....DEEDS...

The American people took those tools and created politicians who put in NAFTA...now we get to experience the reality...
quote:
Originally posted by traderconnections:
NO ONE BELIEVED ROSS PEROT EITHER...the unions supported William Clinton...and he is the one who signed the NAFTA treaty into affect...

God gave us three tools to create our reality...

THOUGHTS...WORDS....DEEDS...

The American people took those tools and created politicians who put in NAFTA...now we get to experience the reality...



We are reaping what politicians have sown. Bush has done no better, more companies have moved overseas in the last 6 years than ever before. WHAT ARE THEY THINKING.

Our only hope is to BUY AMERICAN FROM AMERICANS.

ABB at Wise is going to impact all of us in one way or (worse yet) another.
quote:
Originally posted by CharlieFoxtrot:
quote:
Originally posted by pba:
At 95% employment it is really hard to take advantage of your employees. There are plenty of jobs out there.

Out there meaning China or Mexico or both?


I do not know the employment rate in China or Mexico.



I can tell you one thing, their rate of work has gone WAY up over the last 20 years, that is a certainty!!!
quote:
Originally posted by imjstacntrygirl:
When I was in college, (a few years back) one of my professors said, that one day the U.S. would be taken over with out a shot being fired.
The U.S. would be taken over from within. One of those things that make you go, "hhmmmm..."

BTW, he was an economics professor.



CountryGirl, I am so sad to even THINK of your professor being right, but it is playing out that way, and the time has come.

Did you listen to today's news about the NEW ARABIC SCHOOL opening in New York??? OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK, and before anyone says it isn't "OUR TAX DOLLARS" then read the FINE PRINT.

My Doctor's office has it on FOX NEWS all the time, and I saw it with my own eyes, and heard it with my own ears. I was in the waiting room with my mouth agape, as well as the rest of the patients watiting.

Want to know the KICKER??? NO ONE even KNOWS what sort of courses are going to be offered, what they are going to be doing, or anything. The FOX reporter was great though, she KEPT saying over and over, "IF IT IS MY DIME, TELL ME YOUR EDUCATIONAL SCHEDULE, OTHERWISE PAY TAXES AND GO PRIVATE, OR GO BACK TO THE MIDDLE EAST". I felt like hugging her!!!

Anyway, as it stands right now, the sheer number of sleeper cells that has infiltrated our country (ever State), BOUGHT OFF politicians, and recruiting even more nations for their sleeper activities, I definitely believe what your professor says, he was a very smart man and very enlightened.

Scary days are coming. And we are not even ready, our Troops aren't even HERE.
traderconnections:

NO ONE BELIEVED ROSS PEROT EITHER...the unions supported William Clinton...and he is the one who signed the NAFTA treaty into affect...

God gave us three tools to create our reality...

THOUGHTS...WORDS....DEEDS...

The American people took those tools and created politicians who put in NAFTA...now we get to experience the reality...

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS HAPPENING at Wise...then read the topic THE NORTH AMERICAN UNION TREATY and you will start to see what is to come...

________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Unions backed Clinton because he said he would make changes to NAFTA to protect the American worker and the environment. He lied. That's the lie he should have been impeached for. Just about the first thing he did was pressure NAFTA through Congress. But it also had to do with pressure by the corporate media which was hot on his tail to act on it. They also kept the American people in the dark about the consequences and what was really happening. They riducled Perot. Clinton is a corporate democrat but called himself a "New Democrat."

The majority of our representatives are corporate. We are now a one party state in America, the Corporate Party.

It is all part of Corporate Globalization and it actually began under Reagan but he called it something to the effect of his "Global Trade initiative." He and Bush Sr both gave tax breaks and incentives for business to move to Central America. It devastated our Manufacturing Sector. The corporate media and pundits blamed the workers and the unions but workers in America deserve a livable wage and fair share of the pie.

Bush Sr was suffering from a backlash due to the recession that was left over from Reagan's and his first term and the unions were mounting opposition to NAFTA so the corporate party and it's mouthpieces the corporate media backed Clinton to sell the program to the American people. Which they did.

It was just to increase corporate profits as corporations pit the American and European workers against sweatshop labor in 3rd world and developing nations to see who will work for the least, give up the most benefits and environmental protections. It is called "a race to the bottom" for the workers while corporate profits rise. And it is just what we are seeing happening.

We need international unions that will protect all workers around the world. People should read up on Labor History, it is one part of our history that is left out of our education and our corporate media. People died, were beaten and jailed for the right of an 8 hour day, 5 day work week, safe working conditions and labor rights. All which have been chipped away by the "Reagan Revolution."

Also, the Full Employment rate is only 65%.
What most folks don't think about is that people join the union that did not support the union. These folks were folks from the republican side of views to help bring the union down.The Wise Alloys employees I would say most vote republican because of the south being so conservative democrat or republican. The sad thing is these employees have no one to go to.



These very people who work for Wise Alloys may be waking up to reality because now they have been hit by the issue that they only heard on the news. Sometimes it takes an issue like this to wake people up. These conservative good folks have voted as their preachers have told them to, vote their conscience not their pocket book. The same has been told to the senior citizens who are barely getting by and their medicare has been stripped to the bone. Keep voting your conscience and not your pocket book as your preacher is telling you might put you in the poor house or on the street homeless. So I wonder how God looks at this. You know God gave us a brain and the problem is not many use it.So, keep voting conservative republican or conservative democrat and don't blame anyone but yourself. The Conservative democrats may tell you they support unions but this is not true in Alabama. Alabama democrats rule the house and senate and what have they done for the working man? The republicans have never been for the working class folks. Now go back to sleep and do nothing while the cancer grows.
Last edited by Jan55
PBA

I don't think it is the government's job to ensure you or I have a job. However, I am curious as to why you ask what AL politician have done for the "working man". I'm sure that you are aware of the state's unemployment rate being one of the lowest in the nation at less than 4%. The average wage has also been on the upswing in recent years.

I wonder how much the average "working man" could improve his/her own situation if they put half as much effort into sharpening skills or furthering education as they do looking for the next political superhero.

If it were so easy to improve the standard of living with one wave of the polical wand, why not raise min. wage to $20/hr.? I think you know the answer.
quote:
Originally posted by Rational Right:
PBA

I don't think it is the government's job to ensure you or I have a job. However, I am curious as to why you ask what AL politician have done for the "working man". I'm sure that you are aware of the state's unemployment rate being one of the lowest in the nation at less than 4%. The average wage has also been on the upswing in recent years.

I wonder how much the average "working man" could improve his/her own situation if they put half as much effort into sharpening skills or furthering education as they do looking for the next political superhero.

If it were so easy to improve the standard of living with one wave of the polical wand, why not raise min. wage to $20/hr.? I think you know the answer.




"working man" could improve his/her own situation if they put half as much effort into sharpening skills or furthering education as they do looking for the next political superhero.


Furthering Education is the key I agree. Most of your working class cannot afford Health ins. How can a working man afford to go to school for better Education? Get a loan that will eat him up in interset for the rest of his life? Most corp will not work with you anymore like they use to for you to go to school.Where are all these jobs that you speak of in Alabama?
You must be speaking of a low paying jobs that most already are working there anyway. I guess the wise Alloys people will be doing whatever they can get after they draw all their unemployment checks out.These folks will sit on their butts and draw all there unempoyment up and lie about looking for a job. These are the type people that would not work for min wage jobs.
This is for the comment posted by pba. I work at Wise Alloys. Yes I will probably draw an unemployment check if it comes to that. That is my right, as yours. As for lieing about looking for a job and us not working minimum wage jobs, I have already been looking for a job AND I have worked minimum wage jobs in my lifetime and if it comes to that to support my children, I will do so. A lot of people think we at Wise have it made. Yes, I have been fortunate to have had this job for its benefits and such. It will be a hard adjustment for some of us who are in unions that cannot send us elsewhere to work. It is unfair of you to speak of me as a person who would lie about looking for a job while I sit on my butt. I have worked since I was in high school and the ONLY time since then I have not worked, I was on maternity leave. I have children to raise. I am proud of the work I have done at Wise and if it is to come to an end, so be it. I can walk away proud of what I did there. I can WORK somewhere else. I would think that this community would be a little more supportive of us than this. We are your families, friends, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by justthinking:
This is for the comment posted by pba. I work at Wise Alloys. Yes I will probably draw an unemployment check if it comes to that. That is my right, as yours. As for lieing about looking for a job and us not working minimum wage jobs, I have already been looking for a job AND I have worked minimum wage jobs in my lifetime and if it comes to that to support my children, I will do so. A lot of people think we at Wise have it made. Yes, I have been fortunate to have had this job for its benefits and such. It will be a hard adjustment for some of us who are in unions that cannot send us elsewhere to work. It is unfair of you to speak of me as a person who would lie about looking for a job while I sit on my butt. I have worked since I was in high school and the ONLY time since then I have not worked, I was on maternity leave. I have children to raise. I am proud of the work I have done at Wise and if it is to come to an end, so be it. I can walk away proud of what I did there. I can WORK somewhere else. I would think that this community would be a little more supportive of us than this. We are your families, friends, etc.



I should said most of the people I did not mean all. I hope that you are waking up to what is going on with jobs and hope you will speak up to what you have learned from all of this. Wise could careless about you or your co-workers. They have let you know how they feel about all that good work you're doing by giving your job to someone else.
the people going now will get the last laugh a year from now when ABB gets rid of overpaid management and engineers, the reason they are making 70 to 100 thou a year is because they had to make more than craft. go to non-union shops around the shoals and the engineers will be lucky to make 40-50/yr. THEY WILL BE NEXT! go to ABB sites and read how they like to do it all.
quote:
Originally posted by pipepat:
the people going now will get the last laugh a year from now when ABB gets rid of overpaid management and engineers, the reason they are making 70 to 100 thou a year is because they had to make more than craft. go to non-union shops around the shoals and the engineers will be lucky to make 40-50/yr. THEY WILL BE NEXT! go to ABB sites and read how they like to do it all.



I hope that you are right! I hate it for these folks that are losing their jobs from Wise Alloys. They need to think real hard about who they vote for and do their own research to see if they will be cutting their own throats by voting for someone just because they want you to vote the way they vote. If you are not outrage then you are not paying attention.
quote:
Originally posted by HiHO:
I have always been amazed how people on the outside know more than people on the inside. Walk a mile in our shoes then you will have a better understanding.




Walk a mile in our shoes then you will have a better understanding.

I think alot of people are getting the message that has and getting ready to walk in your shoes like the quote from today's you said it.

This is what the person called in to you said and said:QUOTE
"I'm calling in reference to the article about Wise Metals outsourcing maintenance service.Welcome to my world.AFTER 27 years of employment at ECM, administrators decided they no longer needed LPN'S. Now,after three months away from ECM, I realize how overworked,under-appreciated and underpaid I was. Good luck,Wise employees.
There may be a better life ahead of you.ECM did me a Big favor by doing for me what I could not do for myself.''

Note: This is in you said it, todays paper and I have notice that times daily has not posted it on the times daily website yet.
Roll Back the New Gilded Age: Repeal the Taft-Hartley Act

By Ralph Nader, Nader.org. Posted September 5, 2007.



This August marks the 60th anniversary of the Taft-Hartley Act, one of the corporate Right's great blows to American democracy. Tools


This August marks the 60th anniversary of the Taft-Hartley Act, one of the great blows to American democracy, going into effect.

The Act, which was drafted by employers, fundamentally infringed on workers' human rights.

Legally, Taft-Hartley: impeded employees' right to join together in labor unions; undermined the power of unions to represent workers' interests effectively; and authorized an array of anti-union activities by employers. Among its key provisions, Taft-Hartley:

Authorized states to enact so-called right-to-work laws. These laws undermine the ability to build effective unions by creating a free-rider problem -- workers can enjoy the benefits of union membership in a workplace without actually joining the union or paying union dues. Right-to-work laws thus increase employer leverage to resist unions by undermining individual workers' incentives to join a union; and thereby vastly decrease union membership, thus dramatically diminishing unions' bargaining power.

Outlawed the closed shop, which required that persons join the union before being eligible for employment with the unionized employer. (Still permitted are provisions that require any member of a bargaining unit to pay a portion of dues to that union, though not to join the union.)

Defined "employee" for purposes of the Act as excluding supervisors and independent contractors. This diminished the pool of workers eligible to be unionized, and has become an increasingly serious problem as courts and the National Labor Relations Board have authorized ever-expanding employer definitions of what constitutes a supervisor. The exclusion of supervisors from union organizing activity meant they would be used as management's "front line" in anti-organizing efforts.

Permitted employers to petition for a union certification election, thus undermining the ability of workers and unions to control the timing of an election during the sensitive organizing stage, forcing an election before the union is ready.

http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?key=4121...workplace%2F61686%2F
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
traderconnections:

NO ONE BELIEVED ROSS PEROT EITHER...the unions supported William Clinton...and he is the one who signed the NAFTA treaty into affect...

God gave us three tools to create our reality...

THOUGHTS...WORDS....DEEDS...

The American people took those tools and created politicians who put in NAFTA...now we get to experience the reality...

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS HAPPENING at Wise...then read the topic THE NORTH AMERICAN UNION TREATY and you will start to see what is to come...

________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Unions backed Clinton because he said he would make changes to NAFTA to protect the American worker and the environment. He lied. That's the lie he should have been impeached for. Just about the first thing he did was pressure NAFTA through Congress. But it also had to do with pressure by the corporate media which was hot on his tail to act on it. They also kept the American people in the dark about the consequences and what was really happening. They riducled Perot. Clinton is a corporate democrat but called himself a "New Democrat."

The majority of our representatives are corporate. We are now a one party state in America, the Corporate Party.

It is all part of Corporate Globalization and it actually began under Reagan but he called it something to the effect of his "Global Trade initiative." He and Bush Sr both gave tax breaks and incentives for business to move to Central America. It devastated our Manufacturing Sector. The corporate media and pundits blamed the workers and the unions but workers in America deserve a livable wage and fair share of the pie.

Bush Sr was suffering from a backlash due to the recession that was left over from Reagan's and his first term and the unions were mounting opposition to NAFTA so the corporate party and it's mouthpieces the corporate media backed Clinton to sell the program to the American people. Which they did.

It was just to increase corporate profits as corporations pit the American and European workers against sweatshop labor in 3rd world and developing nations to see who will work for the least, give up the most benefits and environmental protections. It is called "a race to the bottom" for the workers while corporate profits rise. And it is just what we are seeing happening.

We need international unions that will protect all workers around the world. People should read up on Labor History, it is one part of our history that is left out of our education and our corporate media. People died, were beaten and jailed for the right of an 8 hour day, 5 day work week, safe working conditions and labor rights. All which have been chipped away by the "Reagan Revolution."

Also, the Full Employment rate is only 65%.


With all due respect, here is my take on what you have posted:
I think that we get so involved in analyzing the situations that we see going on around us. This is a good thing. Having said that, it is also smart to stand back and look at the whole picture. This country started as an agricultural economy. Then it grew into an industrial/manufacturing economy (thus leaving the farmers out of work), now our economy - because we are so advanced - has grown into a technological economy (thus leaving industrial and manufacturing out in the cold). Yes, people will lose their jobs. They always have. However, our country is growing and developing, and this is our growing pains. Trade is detrimental to any country. Why waste time and precious resources producing things that other countries can produce better, cheaper, and faster. It gives their economy a much needed boost (such as third world countries who are still in the first stage of developement - agriculture); and our country gets these products cheaper and the freedom to use our resources on things of much greater importance.

These corporations that some view as anti-american are the same corporations that pay a large amount of our federal tax bill and supply us with jobs.

As for unions, I am not much for setting high pay scales for workers unless they are truly worth it. I say let the market handle this. Unionization is a disincentive for a company. Who wants to "have" to hire people who are guarenteed a higher wage then an average worker. The disincentive is when you get these high paid workers in a job and they perform at a low level of performance...because they can...their pay is locked in. It is almost the reverse of capping salaries of CEO's or athletes, they have a disincentive - to perform in a less productive manner...because they are capped...it doesn't matter, they won't be paid anymore anyway. If the pay scale is to low, do not take the job, or take the job long enough to find a better paying job. These companies can't afford to pay workers so little money that their workers can't survive. After all, who will buy their products...their employees. The market will take care of itself if left alone.

Whoever plans on blasting me for this, please keep in mind, the things I have stated come from looking at the situation from a very broad perspective for future growth. Also, I learned this in my Economics class from UA. Not bad, huh!!
SLGREEN1999

First let me commend you for your willingness to put forth yrou views on this subject. I hope you did not take economic lessons from Professor Jim Crouch...if you did, you may want to go to the UNA office and get your money back...you got JIPPED....

The main problem with outsourcing all of your manufacturing and agriculture to other countries is, if history has shown us one thing....Nothing Remains Stable...everything is in constant change...Political leaders change, economics change, political conflicts change, etc...No! Country's leaders should allow his country to outsource so much, that they have to be dependent on other countries to survive...

We have allowed ourselves to be in that position...We have become a debtor nation...our coffers are empty...China and Russia could SINK THE DOLLAR VALUE just by dumping what they hold in their reserves(which puts us in a position of economic blackmail...and china threatened that last month)...A majority of our military uniforms are made in china by companies owned by the Chinese military...We have some of our ports to being managed by companies, fronted by the chinese government...We have allowed ourselves to be dependent on energy resources from unstable regions...

The Top Economist in the United States gave a formal endorsement to NAFTA...They stated, it was going to be the best thing, next to your fantasy of having sex with your significant other...Well! History has shown us the result of that little treaty...

YES! and NO! Do you Unions have they value and purpose...
Do Unions always look out for not only their interest but the interest of the company...

Sometimes Unions have bullied,backed violence, and almost put companies into bankrupcty because of their demands...when union officials do that, it becomes extortion and criminal...

I am at the age now where I do not see so much in a idealistic ways and the rose color has faded from my corneas...which tends to make me see a lot of grays...I wish the unions and management had the same goals...a lot of our manufacturing that went overseas or south would still be here in the U.S....
But the die has been set and you are already starting to see some of the major changes coming at ya, with the Mexican Drivers now being allowed to deliver their goods from point A in Mexico to Point B in the U.S. without dropping off to an American Driver...
quote:
Originally posted by traderconnections:
SLGREEN1999

First let me commend you for your willingness to put forth yrou views on this subject. I hope you did not take economic lessons from Professor Jim Crouch...if you did, you may want to go to the UNA office and get your money back...you got JIPPED....

The main problem with outsourcing all of your manufacturing and agriculture to other countries is, if history has shown us one thing....Nothing Remains Stable...everything is in constant change...Political leaders change, economics change, political conflicts change, etc...No! Country's leaders should allow his country to outsource so much, that they have to be dependent on other countries to survive...

We have allowed ourselves to be in that position...We have become a debtor nation...our coffers are empty...China and Russia could SINK THE DOLLAR VALUE just by dumping what they hold in their reserves(which puts us in a position of economic blackmail...and china threatened that last month)...A majority of our military uniforms are made in china by companies owned by the Chinese military...We have some of our ports to being managed by companies, fronted by the chinese government...We have allowed ourselves to be dependent on energy resources from unstable regions...

The Top Economist in the United States gave a formal endorsement to NAFTA...They stated, it was going to be the best thing, next to your fantasy of having sex with your significant other...Well! History has shown us the result of that little treaty...

YES! and NO! Do you Unions have they value and purpose...
Do Unions always look out for not only their interest but the interest of the company...

Sometimes Unions have bullied,backed violence, and almost put companies into bankrupcty because of their demands...when union officials do that, it becomes extortion and criminal...

I am at the age now where I do not see so much in a idealistic ways and the rose color has faded from my corneas...which tends to make me see a lot of grays...I wish the unions and management had the same goals...a lot of our manufacturing that went overseas or south would still be here in the U.S....
But the die has been set and you are already starting to see some of the major changes coming at ya, with the Mexican Drivers now being allowed to deliver their goods from point A in Mexico to Point B in the U.S. without dropping off to an American Driver...



You know, we can hash, re-hash and even hash this subject till the cows come home. We can blame this president, that president, this company and that company, this politician's promises and that politician's promises all we want and it still don't change the fact that we are LOSING our Country!!!

To heck with any of the history behind it, we are living TODAY and TOMORROW and each day that follows we are being taken over. Oh it has been going on for a while, of course it has!!! Ever so slowly so "We the People" wouldn't fuss and have a fit about it and choke on all the 'promises' from all the crooked politicians out there who pad their OWN pockets with all this stuff.

Bottom line is we are about to go through a wave in our Country that will leave all of us reeling. CORPORATE AMERICA has turned against us with the help of the 'pocket padding politicians, lying through their teeth' and we are going to suffer.

BUT WHO IS GOING TO SUFFER MOST???? Our Children, our Grandchildren and the generations thereafter. What a sad state of affairs we are leaving them!!!

It matters NONE at this point WHO is to blame, and right now, it is something NONE Of us can do anything about. WE ARE LOSING AMERICA as we know it. It is obvious in everything you see and everything you read and everything you hear. There is NO turning back for the biggest part of us here on the forum, and our hopes and dreams for a better life for our offspring is even a dim aspect.

Yep, America, as we know it (or knew it) is gone. September 11th sent us a message and we have been slowly sucked up by corporate hype ever since. People are getting mega-rich off the working class citizens.

Yes, I am pro-union, and at this point I can see ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER WAY out of the mess we have ALLOWED our elected officials to get us in. THE PEOPLE need to organize and throw them ALL out and get people in there who will SAVE AMERICA, the ECONOMY and the FUTURE.

Think I am crazy and just spouting off??? Well, open your ears and eyes, and please don't forget to put your seatbelt on, we are in for the roughest ride ever.

OH AND FOR THE RECORD-There is NOT nearly as many Teamsters going to lose their hard working driving jobs as our non-union drivers who work 6-7 days a week just to keep bills paid and food on the table for their family because of this insane "Mexican Drivers" that are now allowed to drive our highways. It is NOT the Unions that will be hurt on that aspect. THINK LONG AND HARD, look at the drivers you know, and understand that the VAST MAJORITY of our truck drivers belong to NO union and they will be the ones hurt.

SO NOW WHAT??????????????????
You are correct when you say little Joe has no friends....Just "YES" men who ill probably be out the door as soon as the ABB deal goes thru as well. There is no loyalty in this company. The reasons they have downsized to what they are now, is because people like Little Joe P. and The Wade Autens of Wise ALloys, have led David D'Arrio to believe this plant can run effiecintly with less people, less safety, and rotating schedules. I am sure that this will all be a big write off for D'Arrio, then he can go crawl back under the mansion he came from...as for the "yes" men..I will see you in the unemployment line soon.....
Jobless in the USA
Paul Craig Roberts
Thursday, Aug. 7, 2003
Throughout history, peoples have been overcome by trends and forces that they were unable to recognize. Could the United States be losing its economy to forces economists mistake for benevolent free trade?

Traditionally, free trade has required a country's workforce to compete indirectly against the workforces of other countries in the markets for traded goods and services. Fears in the post-WW II era that U.S. wages and living standards would be undermined by imports made with cheap foreign labor proved to be wrong. U.S. labor was better educated and worked with more and better capital and technology, which made American labor much more productive. Higher productivity protected U.S. wages and employment from cheap foreign labor.

The collapse of world socialism and the rise of globalism have made U.S. capital, technology and business know-how highly mobile. Today, it is as easy – and far less expensive – for a U.S. firm to produce abroad for U.S. markets. Instead of locating its capital and technology in Ohio, California or South Carolina, the company locates its facility in China, for example.

By locating in China, the firm substitutes a workforce that is paid less than a dollar an hour for U.S. labor that costs $26 an hour. By locating in China, the firm also avoids expensive regulations, torts, employment taxes and discrimination lawsuits.

The mobility of capital and technology means that American labor now faces direct competition in global labor markets. This is a new development.

A Chinese person working with U.S. capital and technology is just as productive as an American. The Chinese worker can be hired for much less, because living standards and the cost of living are far lower in China.

The huge labor surplus in countries such as China and India means that wages are not likely to rise very rapidly in those countries. U.S. firms that substitute Chinese and Indian labor for U.S. employees are building in lower labor costs for years to come.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/8/6/132901.shtml
quote:
Originally posted by justthinking:
You are correct when you say little Joe has no friends....Just "YES" men who ill probably be out the door as soon as the ABB deal goes thru as well. There is no loyalty in this company. The reasons they have downsized to what they are now, is because people like Little Joe P. and The Wade Autens of Wise ALloys, have led David D'Arrio to believe this plant can run effiecintly with less people, less safety, and rotating schedules. I am sure that this will all be a big write off for D'Arrio, then he can go crawl back under the mansion he came from...as for the "yes" men..I will see you in the unemployment line soon.....



I think "WISE" (what a name, lol) is doing EXACTLY what they planned from day one, they just had to do it slowly so the people would be acclimated to it.
quote:
Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
quote:
Originally posted by justthinking:
You are correct when you say little Joe has no friends....Just "YES" men who ill probably be out the door as soon as the ABB deal goes thru as well. There is no loyalty in this company. The reasons they have downsized to what they are now, is because people like Little Joe P. and The Wade Autens of Wise ALloys, have led David D'Arrio to believe this plant can run effiecintly with less people, less safety, and rotating schedules. I am sure that this will all be a big write off for D'Arrio, then he can go crawl back under the mansion he came from...as for the "yes" men..I will see you in the unemployment line soon.....



I think "WISE" (what a name, lol) is doing EXACTLY what they planned from day one, they just had to do it slowly so the people would be acclimated to it.




It would be nice if these folks could pull a Johnny Paycheck and say Take This Job And Shove IT!!! But they can't afford to do that.
30 years ago next summer,I returned to my ROOTS in the Shoals,My parents left here in '46 cause there were NO Jobs here after ww2. most of my family works UNION construction. so they settled in da big city up nawth.when I returned here in '78, you could work anywhere, Yellow Creek,tom-bigby,Colbert,Reynolds,Ford,Union Carbbde,Rust was doing the paper mill in Courtland,Browns Ferry(7 days a week),the dams needed people,the fert. plant on the res.the service shop2,the the smaler non-union shops,tee shirts,Robbins rubber, etc. now most are gone.my parents (now 86) said the last time they were here that they hadn't seen it this bad in Florence except in '46!!!and now I'm in China tring to make a buck.thankx RR
quote:
Originally posted by pipepat:
30 years ago next summer,I returned to my ROOTS in the Shoals,My parents left here in '46 cause there were NO Jobs here after ww2. most of my family works UNION construction. so they settled in da big city up nawth.when I returned here in '78, you could work anywhere, Yellow Creek,tom-bigby,Colbert,Reynolds,Ford,Union Carbbde,Rust was doing the paper mill in Courtland,Browns Ferry(7 days a week),the dams needed people,the fert. plant on the res.the service shop2,the the smaler non-union shops,tee shirts,Robbins rubber, etc. now most are gone.my parents (now 86) said the last time they were here that they hadn't seen it this bad in Florence except in '46!!!and now I'm in China tring to make a buck.thankx RR



Pipepat, I remember those days well! Ever since Reagan, it has been a sad song for the working middle class.
Democrats give unions new clout




By Ken Dilanian, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — The Democratic majority in Congress, which was elected with the help of $57.6 million in campaign contributions from unions, has pushed measures to increase wages on public projects, ease rules for unionizing workplaces and cut funding for corruption investigators.
Veto threats from President Bush and opposition by Republicans in the Senate, where the rules allow the minority to block legislation, have prevented those and other union-endorsed proposals from becoming law. But labor lobbyists say they are setting the stage for 2009, when they expect a Democrat in the White House.

One immediate impact of labor's clout has come in trade policy: Democrats are demanding union-backed changes to environmental, worker safety and other elements of four trade agreements negotiated by the Bush administration with South Korea, Colombia, Panama and Peru. Trade agreements require congressional approval.

"It's pure political payoff," said Rick Berman, a corporate lobbyist and public relations consultant who directs the Center for Union Facts, an anti-labor group. "The unions said, 'We got the money. You listen to us or you're going hungry.' "

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-09-10-democrats-union_N.htm
quote:
Originally posted by EvilGenius:
quote:
and now I'm in China tring to make a buck.thankx RR


Yeah that will really help, you over there helping the Communist Chinese to compete against an American commodity industry. You'll probably get the freedom award from Bush.



Impressive huh?

Not helping with the problems, but PART of the problem, a HUGE part too!!! UGH Mad
gotta go where da work is!! they have more freedom over here than we have in the States. I can walk down the streets anytime of the night and not worry about some ********er sticking a gun in my face.besides that all that money I'm making will be brought back and spent in the Shoals!!!when you can't find work at home,you go find it!
in the early 60's when in school I once had a prof say that with democracy we started with total FREEDOM with comminism they started with No freedom,we were at the top of the circle headed for each other. Every time our lawmakers make a new law,we lose FREEDOM,every time the commies make a new law they gain freedom.and that some day we will meet in middle. They told me that if Viet Nam fell the whole world would be commie. They lied,I can ride my Harley from one end of Nam to the other. its simple over here "don't break the law" if you deal drugs,you die, corrupt politican YOU die,steal from the state you die.this puts alot of lawers and judges and jailers out of work.Right now I'm learning Spanish so I will be able to communicate when I return home!
Big money and big business, corporations and commerce, are again the undisputed overlords of politics and government. The White House, the Congress and, increasingly, the judiciary, reflect their interests. We appear to have a government run by remote control from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the National Association of Manufacturers and the American Petroleum Institute. To hell with everyone else: Bill Moyers - PBS Commentator

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Money becomes evil not when it is used to buy goods but when it is used to buy power... economic inequalities become evil when they are translated into political inequalities: Samuel Huntington - Political Scientist

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