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We all know that women were considered basically slaves during the beginning of mankind, (sometimes now too), and I have always wondered who they were and from where did they come?
Even if we say Cain's wife was his sister, where did all the wives of other men come from?

16 And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and lived in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch; and he built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son, Enoch.
~
18 And to Enoch was born Irad; and Irad became the father of Mehujael; and Mehujael became the father of Methusael; and Methusael became the father of Lamech.
~

This was several generations, what happened in-between?
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Just my opinion about the wives that these men found to satisfy my own curiosity. If Cain did not marry his own sister, then God made a few more men and women once he started making them. However, I lean towards marrying his own sister.
With no birth control back then, there would be dozens of kids who had dozens of kids, who married cousins, therefore having dozens of kids and quickly populating the world.
quote:
Originally posted by weddingdoves:
Just my opinion about the wives that these men found to satisfy my own curiosity. If Cain did not marry his own sister, then God made a few more men and women once he started making them. However, I lean towards marrying his own sister.
With no birth control back then, there would be dozens of kids who had dozens of kids, who married cousins, therefore having dozens of kids and quickly populating the world.


wedd,
I agree, and some lived hundreds of years I think for that reason. We don't know
God didn't make more people. I think he did and put them in different parts
of the world.
quote:
Even if we say Cain's wife was his sister, where did all the wives of other men come from?



All this is academic when you consider that the bible is a weak metaphor for the story of evolution. I'm sure there was one single dude at one time that God spoke to and created his religion. He found a wife. The rest is biblical history. Other faiths have their own version of How We Came to Be.

The truth? Well, God left us abundant evidence to discern His secrets using the power of science, logic and reason. Unless God is just messing with our minds, the overwhelming evidence is that all races, all humans, all life came from a common ancestor a long, long time ago. Yes, every single one of us share an unbroken, living ancestral line that stretches all the way back to the initial spark of life. Perhaps Adam and Eve were the first to life forms to learn how to reproduce. We don't know. But we do know we are directly related to whatever life form that was.

I see the whole Genesis thing as man's first attempt in fuguing out how all this came to be. There is a traceable, natural evolution of man's knowledge beginning with the bible and other ancient texts, progressing through the Enlightenment period all the way up through Darwin, Einstein/Plank, Hawking, Dawkins and so on.

Faith explains no part of science. Science explains many parts of faith.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
We all know that women were considered basically slaves during the beginning of mankind, (sometimes now too), and I have always wondered who they were and from where did they come? Even if we say Cain's wife was his sister, where did all the wives of other men come from?. . . This was several generations, what happened in between?

Hi B,

We are told in Genesis 5:5 that Adam lived to be 930 years old. Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born (Genesis 5:3) -- so Cain was born many years before and had grown into a mature man who farmed; so, let's say he was born when Adam was 50 to 75 years old when Cain was born. In the 800 years after the birth of Seth; Adam and Eve had many children. How do I know this? They were young, for that time, healthy (their gene pool had not been corrupted) -- and most likely had many children. The article from Answers In Genesis referenced below shows that they had "thirty-three sons and twenty-three daughters."

Those children married and had children and it takes very few generations for the population to explode. In Genesis 10:6-8, we read that Noah's son, Japeth, had a son, Cush. Cush was the father of Nimrod. And, we know from Genesis 11 that by the time Nimrod led the people to the plain of Shinar -- there were quite a few, enough to get in trouble with God by trying to build their tower of Babel.

But, the real reason God was miffed at those in Babel was that they were disobedient to his command to "multiply and fill the earth." Instead if filling the earth -- they all stayed together on the plains of Shinar. So, God confused their language to cause them to migrate into other areas.

So, you can see that, in just a few generations -- the sons of Noah had built a healthy population. Imagine how many people descended from Seth -- until the flood -- billions. So, yes, during that time people married siblings as well as other relatives.

Paw suggests that this is incest. No, for God did not institute the law of incest until the time of Moses. For about 2500 years, there was no such restriction as we know incest today. However, we do know that the effect of interrelated marriages will eventually corrupt the gene pool -- so, God made changes in the way people married and had children. But, until the time of Moses -- no incest, no incest laws.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Cain’s Wife — Who Was She?
http://www.answersingenesis.or...b/who-was-cains-wife

Many people immediately reject the conclusion that Adam and Eve’s sons and daughters married each other by appealing to the law against brother-sister marriage. Some say that you can’t marry your relation. Actually, if you don’t marry your relation, you don’t marry a human! A wife is related to her husband before they are married because all people are descendants of Adam and Eve — all are of one blood. This law forbidding close relatives marrying was not given until the time of Moses (Leviticus 18–20). Provided marriage was one man for one woman for life (based on Genesis 1–2), there was no disobedience to God’s law originally (before the time of Moses) when close relatives (even brothers and sisters) married each other.

Remember that Abraham was married to his half-sister (Genesis 20:12). God’s law forbade such marriages, but that was some four hundred years later at the time of Moses.

During their lives, Adam and Eve had a number of male and female children. In fact, the Jewish historian Josephus wrote, “The number of Adam’s children, as says the old tradition, was thirty-three sons and twenty-three daughters.” (The Complete Works of Josephus)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Population of the PreFlood World
http://ldolphin.org/pickett.html

Very little is known about the people who lived before the Great Flood. Genesis chapters 2 through 7 provide a synopsis of that age. Ancient Jewish writings provide more possible detail. However, no archaeological discoveries have been made which would reveal additional information about this lost society. Therefore, scripture is all we have to rely on. Of the many issues concerning the flood, a common question that has often been asked is: "What was the world population when the flood occurred?" Most people have been taught that the population might have been in the tens of millions or perhaps in the hundreds of millions. Using an electronic spreadsheet, an analysis was made of the effects of population size using the numerical values provided in the book of Genesis for age of childbirth, number of children per family and life-spans.

This study is based upon a time span of 1656 years, beginning with the creation of Adam and extending to the time the Great Flood occurred. Although arguments can be made against this amount of time, it is widely accepted among Bible scholars. When you add up the genealogies in the book of Genesis you get 1656 years. However, it should be noted that other ancient Jewish writings such as the Septuagint indicate a longer time period .

Although it is difficult to obtain an actual value of world population at the time of the flood, 5 to 17 billion people would appear to be reasonable populations, with an average of around 10 billion. The best ages for childbirth would be 80.8 to 92 years with 6 to 7 children per family. This would be 20 to 18 generations produced from Adam to the Flood in 1656. The Book of Genesis indicates (Chapter 5) that each family had at least 5 children. Adam and Eve had a total of 7 (including Abel). However, Noah apparently had only 3 children. (It is possible that he could have had sons and daughters that aren't recorded and who weren't on the ark.)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So, B50, where did Cain get his wife? She was either a sibling or a close relative, i.e., cousin.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Genesis 6
Increasing Corruption on Earth
1When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3Then the LORD said,(A) "My Spirit shall not abide in[a] man forever,(B) for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years." 4The Nephilim[b] were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

5(C) The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every(D) intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And(E) the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it(F) grieved him to his heart. 7So the LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them." 8But Noah(G) found favor in the eyes of the LORD.


Any one want to take a stab at:
'the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.'

or:
Nephilim[b] were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them.


So we had giants and man together and the 'sons of God' who admired the daughters of man. Who were the giants and the 'sons of God'?
quote:
Originally posted by Kraven:
quote:
Originally posted by themax:
Hi, B50, this is something I have often wondered about. Og, who was defeated by Gods people had a bed that was 13 feet long if my memory serves me right. Where did the giants come from??


themax
Fallen angels?


That is one possibility but then that means the fallen angels are the reason that mankind became corrupt which means God intended to wipe out the race he had just created. Why?

Are the giants and the 'sons of God' the same thing?
Are the giants the result of the mating of the fallen angels and human females?
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
quote:
Originally posted by Kraven:
quote:
Originally posted by themax:
Hi, B50, this is something I have often wondered about. Og, who was defeated by Gods people had a bed that was 13 feet long if my memory serves me right. Where did the giants come from??


themax
Fallen angels?


That is one possibility but then that means the fallen angels are the reason that mankind became corrupt which means God intended to wipe out the race he had just created. Why?

Are the giants and the 'sons of God' the same thing?
Are the giants the result of the mating of the fallen angels and human females?

b50..

Wipe out the race? - Yes, because of corruption and fallen angels. Yes, they
mated with the angels. The angels stayed in the highlands and the females
followed them. Because they did God allow them to mate. Giants.
Giants are Sons of God
quote:
Originally posted by Kraven:
Wipe out the race? - Yes, because of corruption and fallen angels. Yes, they
mated with the angels. The angels stayed in the highlands and the females
followed them. Because they did God allow them to mate. Giants.
Giants are Sons of God



Where do you find this information? : The angels stayed in the highlands and the females
followed them. Because they did God allow them to mate.

quote:
Nephilim[b] were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them.


If we move the part 'and also afterward' to the end:

Nephilim[b] were on the earth in those days when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them, and also afterward.

It is easier to read the giants were on the earth before and after the sons of God came to the women. So how could the giants be the product of the union?
quote:
Originally posted by buffalo:
Bro. Bill,

With an average of 10 billion; I wonder why it took so long for someone to invent Country Music?

Hi Buffalo,

He was waiting for Hank Williams, Patsy Cline, George Jones, Meryl Haggard and a few other good ones to jump in -- then He blessed all music through our good Country Music.

I'm with you! But, I also love good R&B, Blues, and Big Band Sound. If I can dance to it -- it is good!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

I WAS AT THIS CONCERT AT THE SHEFFIELD COMMUNITY CENTER!

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quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Now that we know what country singers you like, Bill, want to take a crack at the giants and sons of God?

Hi B,

First, tell me what YOU believe the Bible means. Who knows, we may be on the same page.

So, while I go eat dinner -- you share your thoughts and I will get back to you later.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill, I already gave my thoughts earlier.

quote:
themax
Fallen angels?



That is one possibility but then that means the fallen angels are the reason that mankind became corrupt which means God intended to wipe out the race he had just created. Why?

Are the giants and the 'sons of God' the same thing?
Are the giants the result of the mating of the fallen angels and human females?
It is easier to read the giants were on the earth before and after the sons of God came to the women. So how could the giants be the product of the union?
From two sources Bill will not accept.

The Book of Jubilees
"And it came to pass when the children of men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born unto them, that the angels of God saw them on a certain year of this jubilee, that they were beautiful to look upon; and they took themselves wives of all whom they chose, and they bare unto them sons and they were giants.
And lawlessness increased on the earth and all flesh corrupted its way, alike men and cattle and beasts and birds and everything that walks on the earth -all of them corrupted their ways and their orders, and they began to devour each other, and lawlessness increased on the earth and every imagination of the thoughts of all men (was) thus evil continually.
And God looked upon the earth, and behold it was corrupt, and all flesh had corrupted its orders, and all that were upon the earth had wrought all manner of evil before His eyes. And He said that He would destroy man and all flesh upon the face of the earth which He had created.
But Noah found grace before the eyes of the Lord. And against the angels whom He had sent upon the earth, He was exceedingly wroth, and He gave commandment to root them out of all their dominion, and He bade us to bind them in the depths of the earth, and behold they are bound in the midst of them, and are (kept) separate.
And against their sons went forth a command from before His face that they should be smitten with the sword, and be removed from under heaven. And He said 'My spirit shall not always abide on man; for they also are flesh and their days shall be one hundred and twenty years'. And He sent His sword into their midst that each should slay his neighbour, and they began to slay each other till they all fell by the sword and were destroyed from the earth." - Jubilees 5:1-8

The Book of Enoch has the following to say about them:

"It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful. And when the angels, the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children. Then their leader Samyaza said to them; I fear that you may perhaps be indisposed to the performance of this enterprise; And that I alone shall suffer for so grievous a crime.
But they answered him and said; We all swear;
And bind ourselves by mutual execrations, that we will not change our intention, but execute our projected undertaking. Then they swore all together, and all bound themselves by mutual execrations. Their whole number was two hundred, who descended upon Ardis, which is the top of mount Armon.
That mountain therefore was called Armon, because they had sworn upon it, and bound themselves by mutual execrations. [Mt. Armon, or Mt. Hermon, derives its name from the Hebrew word herem, a curse.]
These are the names of their chiefs: Samyaza, who was their leader, Urakabarameel, Akibeel, Tamiel, Ramuel, Danel, Azkeel, Saraknyal, Asael, Armers, Batraal, Anane, Zavebe, Samsaveel, Ertael, Turel, Yomyael, Arazyal. These were the prefects of the two hundred angels, and the remainder were all with them.
Then they took wives, each choosing for himself; whom they began to approach, and with whom they cohabited; teaching them sorcery, incantations, and the dividing of roots and trees.
And the women conceiving brought forth giants,
Whose stature was each three hundred cubits. These devoured all which the labor of men produced; until it became impossible to feed them; When they turned themselves against men, in order to devour them; And began to injure birds, beasts, reptiles, and fishes, to eat their flesh one after another, and to drink their blood. Their flesh one after another. [Or, "one another s flesh." R.H. Charles notes that this phrase may refer to the destruction of one class of giants by another.]
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Now that we know what country singers you like, Bill, want to take a crack at the giants and sons of God?

Hi B,

First, tell me what YOU believe the Bible means. Who knows, we may be on the same page.

So, while I go eat dinner -- you share your thoughts and I will get back to you later.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Hey Bill, you through eatin dinner?
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Now that we know what country singers you like, Bill, want to take a crack at the giants and sons of God?

Hi B,

First, tell me what YOU believe the Bible means. Who knows, we may be on the same page.

So, while I go eat dinner -- you share your thoughts and I will get back to you later.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Hey Bill, you through eatin dinner?

Hi B,

Actually, I am getting ready to eat dinner again. But, I still have not seen your thoughts on the subject.

You show me yours -- and I'll show you mine.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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  • 1_-__Snoopy_Running
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
We all know that women were considered basically slaves during the beginning of mankind, (sometimes now too), and I have always wondered who they were and from where did they come?
Even if we say Cain's wife was his sister, where did all the wives of other men come from?

16 And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and lived in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch; and he built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son, Enoch.
~
18 And to Enoch was born Irad; and Irad became the father of Mehujael; and Mehujael became the father of Methusael; and Methusael became the father of Lamech.
~

This was several generations, what happened in-between?


my thoughts are pretty simple.
TheBill will reject them of course.

it tells us adam and eve were the first couple.
it doesn't mention who the 2nd or 3rd or etc and so forth were.

so, he plonks down adam and eve.. likes the look of them, so someplace else He drops down Bill and maggie, and ethyl and herman, carol and steve, etc etc...

it mentioned adam and eve specifically because as the first 2 they were significant. the thousands that followed not so much...

bill will prolly say something about all of the people really came from adam and eve so that cain was diddling his sister, which is sick.

ok.. i just scrolled through the replies.. he does indeed, and then he presumes to give us a genetics lesson.
clean gene pool? go open a science book, nimrod.

as weddingdoves says -
quote:
"With no birth control back then, there would be dozens of kids who had dozens of kids, who married cousins, therefore having dozens of kids and quickly populating the world."


and to which i add -
and the dozens of dozens of kids would have dozens of fingers and toes each, because reinforcing recessive alleles can be a bad thing indeed.

so after a couple thousand years He jus treached in and dirtied up our gene pool because he changed his mind about it being kosher to boink our cousins?

yeah. right.
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:



so after a couple thousand years He just reached in and dirtied up our gene pool because he changed his mind about it being kosher to boink our cousins?

yeah. right.


That's the way God rocked in the OT. He makes bets with Satan, orders his followers to commit unspeakable atrocities, and puts them to tests (even though he already knows the outcome) that no one should have to go through. And this is the short list.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Number one son had an even more disturbing idea. Since Eve was made from Adam, then we are descended from one set of DNA code. Eve was a female Adam. That idea leads to things I don't want to think. Big Grin



almost the point i was going to make.
eve came from adam, so they had the exact same dna. all the offspring dna would also be the same. there would be no dominant or recessive genes. there could be no corruption of the gene pool. not in 100 yrs, not in a million. there had to be at least 1 more set of humans to corrpt the pool.
Bio of mutation

Mutations can be caused by copying errors in the genetic material during cell division and by exposure to ultraviolet or ionizing radiation, chemical mutagens, or viruses, or can occur deliberately under cellular control during processes such as meiosis or hyper-mutation. In multicellular organisms, mutations can be subdivided into germ-line mutations, which can be passed on to descendants, and somatic mutations. The somatic mutations cannot be transmitted to descendants in animals. Plants sometimes can transmit somatic mutations to their descendants asexually or sexually (in case when flower buds develop in somatically mutated part of plant).
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Bio of mutation

Mutations can be caused by copying errors in the genetic material during cell division and by exposure to ultraviolet or ionizing radiation, chemical mutagens, or viruses, or can occur deliberately under cellular control during processes such as meiosis or hyper-mutation. In multicellular organisms, mutations can be subdivided into germ-line mutations, which can be passed on to descendants, and somatic mutations. The somatic mutations cannot be transmitted to descendants in animals. Plants sometimes can transmit somatic mutations to their descendants asexually or sexually (in case when flower buds develop in somatically mutated part of plant).


But.. for things to mutate from the all powerful god's original design wouldn't be possibile, would it?

i mean.. He knows that such factors would cause possible mutations, being omnescient, and would prevent them from altering his perfect design, being omnipotent... wouldn't he?

or.. perhaps it was the mutating potential that caused him to put life on this planet to begin with, because he knew over the millions of years the mutation would cause the bilogical material to evolve into us Smiler

there is some texts out there that acctually suggests that eve wasn't really the first woman after all.

and the cloned rib thing, yeah, i've often wondered about that. i just put it in the list of things that make me think the bible isn't as holy as bill makes it out to be.

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