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once he took God's name in vain, i have no reason to listen further.
hippiegirl...just curious...just wondering and please don't take it wrong.
Have you never used a swear/curse word in your life?
Have you never used a swear/curse word in your life?
quote:Originally posted by 46:1:
hippiegirl...just curious...just wondering and please don't take it wrong.
Have you never used a swear/curse word in your life?
A swear/curse word is meaningless....using God's name in vain is not.... Two very different things.
I can say ****, hell, ****, ****, son of a *****, bastard...and any mixure of those words all I want...like I said meaningless. Profanity is how you use ANY word. You can call someone a mother-****er in jest and it means nothing, but call them a fool with hate in your heart and it's profanity.
Taking the Lord's name in vain has nothing to do with either of these.
"Is our nations laws," just parse that for a moment, please. Now I am as typo prone as the next person, but that is just illiteracy incarnate and antigrammar personified. Is is a singular verb. Nations is a plural noun. Nation's, on the other hand is a singular possessive. If the question is "Are our nation's laws..." then the answer is partially "yes."
Not our Constitution, however, nor our common law (which is derived from Anglo-Saxon tribal law/Anglo-Norman statute law, and modern statute and case law). There are laws that are or were rooted in an interpretation of the Ten Commandments, but Germanic tribal law covered many of them as well, independent of the Bible, and the Constitution is derived from the ancient pagan and early Christian republics, such as Venice, San Marino, Rome, Athens, et cetera.
Some statute law is derived from the Ten Commandments, and many of them are now overturned or not enforced, such as taking the Lord's name in vain, graven images as Verboten, others of purely Jewish cultic origin. Witness "blue laws," which forced stores and entertainments to shut down on the so-called "Sabbath," even though that was "translated" to Sunday from sundown on Friday night.
How could one legislate against "having no other gods before me" or "coveting"?
Merely because the law code of one society happens at times to coincide with that of another, or one preceded another does not make them related in any form. Hence, the US law is not, per se, derived from the Ten Commandments. That is not to say that those who originated the US laws were not familiar with the Ten Commandments, and may not have formed some inculcation towards their formation, but they were, by and large more informed by the Enlightenment and its ideas moreso than ancient texts, with the traditional English Common Law being the base of our local law.
Not our Constitution, however, nor our common law (which is derived from Anglo-Saxon tribal law/Anglo-Norman statute law, and modern statute and case law). There are laws that are or were rooted in an interpretation of the Ten Commandments, but Germanic tribal law covered many of them as well, independent of the Bible, and the Constitution is derived from the ancient pagan and early Christian republics, such as Venice, San Marino, Rome, Athens, et cetera.
Some statute law is derived from the Ten Commandments, and many of them are now overturned or not enforced, such as taking the Lord's name in vain, graven images as Verboten, others of purely Jewish cultic origin. Witness "blue laws," which forced stores and entertainments to shut down on the so-called "Sabbath," even though that was "translated" to Sunday from sundown on Friday night.
How could one legislate against "having no other gods before me" or "coveting"?
Merely because the law code of one society happens at times to coincide with that of another, or one preceded another does not make them related in any form. Hence, the US law is not, per se, derived from the Ten Commandments. That is not to say that those who originated the US laws were not familiar with the Ten Commandments, and may not have formed some inculcation towards their formation, but they were, by and large more informed by the Enlightenment and its ideas moreso than ancient texts, with the traditional English Common Law being the base of our local law.
quote:Originally posted by Neal Hughes:
"Is our nations laws," just parse that for a moment, please. Now I am as typo prone as the next person, but that is just illiteracy incarnate and antigrammar personified. Is is a singular verb. Nations is a plural noun. Nation's, on the other hand is a singular possessive. If the question is "Are our nation's laws..." then the answer is partially "yes."
Not our Constitution, however, nor our common law (which is derived from Anglo-Saxon tribal law/Anglo-Norman statute law, and modern statute and case law). There are laws that are or were rooted in an interpretation of the Ten Commandments, but Germanic tribal law covered many of them as well, independent of the Bible, and the Constitution is derived from the ancient pagan and early Christian republics, such as Venice, San Marino, Rome, Athens, et cetera.
Some statute law is derived from the Ten Commandments, and many of them are now overturned or not enforced, such as taking the Lord's name in vain, graven images as Verboten, others of purely Jewish cultic origin. Witness "blue laws," which forced stores and entertainments to shut down on the so-called "Sabbath," even though that was "translated" to Sunday from sundown on Friday night.
How could one legislate against "having no other gods before me" or "coveting"?
Merely because the law code of one society happens at times to coincide with that of another, or one preceded another does not make them related in any form. Hence, the US law is not, per se, derived from the Ten Commandments. That is not to say that those who originated the US laws were not familiar with the Ten Commandments, and may not have formed some inculcation towards their formation, but they were, by and large more informed by the Enlightenment and its ideas moreso than ancient texts, with the traditional English Common Law being the base of our local law.
BRAVO! Great post. One of the best short explications of the provenance of our laws that I have ever seen. I am a Christian, but I am often embarrassed and horrified by the ignorance and historical illiteracy of the theocratically-disposed partisans who would, if empowered, stretch and chop the laws of this nation to fit the Procrustean bed of their particular religious biases.
Where's Bill Gray? Yoo Hoo...Bill,where are you?
quote:Originally posted by 46:1:
hippiegirl...just curious...just wondering and please don't take it wrong.
Have you never used a swear/curse word in your life?
sorry i missed this somehow...
no offense taken..i do not take God's name in vain, but did curse occasionally when i was a teenager..and when i worked around some people who cursed regularly, i picked up some bad language without even realizing how awful i sounded, till my sons pointed it out to me..i haven't since then, it's been over 20 years..
i am not comfortable hearing that language, it offends me..if someone continuously curses in my presence, i usually ask them to refrain, if they don't, i just leave the area..they have a right to 'free' speech, i have a right not to hear it..
.........................................................................................
A swear/curse word is meaningless..[quote]
PR, God says we will be accountable for every idle word..Matthew 12:36...to each his own...
quote:Originally posted by thehippiegirl:
A swear/curse word is meaningless..[quote]
PR, God says we will be accountable for every idle word..Matthew 12:36...to each his own...
Yes, but the specific "curse words" I listed, most of which were blocked out, are meaningless. those are words created, and labled by society, not God. If you stump your toe and scream s#*!, that is no worse than screaming crap or fiddlesticks or hoochimomma. that's my point, the actual word is meaningless.
Here's some good info for ya...one of the most horrible words in society is dirived from an acronim. This sign would hang above the door of 2 people having sex outside of marriage in old day England.
Fornicating
Under
Consent of
King
As you can see, we now use a shortened version of this in our everyday speak and society decided it was bad. Not that it's wrong to have these certain words in society, but to say that these words are no,no's based on God's teaching is untrue. Society will often create rules that have little or nothing to do with God, as long as those rules don't obviously go against God then it's no biggie.
I agree with most of the comparison made between "Law" and the Ten Commandments. However, the basic moral code we get most of our laws from and the basic moral code most all of America is raised with is derived directly from the Bible, and in large part the Ten Commandments. I believe the Ten Commandments to be largely over-rated in today's discussion because of just these types of debates. The Ten Commandments were set out mainly for a specific group of people at a specific time in history. The base message is very important however, and what is more important is Jesus' teachings of the Ten Commandments.
Also a focus on the Ten Commandments takes focus away from the entire scope of the Bible, and what we are to learn from it.
Also a focus on the Ten Commandments takes focus away from the entire scope of the Bible, and what we are to learn from it.
Hi Ms. Wonka,
You ask, "Where's Bill Gray? Yoo Hoo...Bill, where are you?"
Well, as the great Andy Griffith said in "No Time for Sergeants" (1955), "I'm rat cheer!" The Shoals area is still my home town -- and I do not plan on letting that change. Even if I do reside in Californy.
And I do have a question for BeternU. You say to Neal Hughes, "BRAVO! Great post. One of the best short explications of the provenance of our laws that I have ever seen. I am a Christian, but I am often embarrassed and horrified by the ignorance and historical illiteracy of the theocratically-disposed partisans who would, if empowered, stretch and chop the laws of this nation to fit the Procrustean bed of their particular religious biases."
First of all, it seems you dug out your dusty old dictionary -- and tried to really lay one on us. Your statement reminds me of a Mark Twain quote, "Use plain, simple language, short words and brief sentences. That is the way to write English -- it is the modern way and the best way. Stick to it; don't let fluff and flowers and verbosity creep in. When you catch an adjective, kill it. No, I don't mean all, but kill most of them -- then the rest will be valuable. They weaken when they are close together. They give strength when they are wide apart."
And George Orwell advised in 1946, "Never use a long word where a short one will do."
But, that point made, I have just one question for you: "You say you are a Christian -- yet, you applaud when someone attempts to tear down the role of the Christian faith, the Bible, and the Ten Commandments in the founding and building of our country. What is your definition of a Christian?"
You say you are embarrassed and horrified by Christians who believe that our nation was founded and established as a Christian nation. Yet, there is ample proof of the influence of the Bible and the Christian faith in the founding of America. Start with the Mayflower Compact which begins, "IN THE name of God, Amen." It continues, "We whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread sovereign Lord, King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britain, France and Ireland king, defender of the faith, etc., having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith. . ." Sound to me like they meant to establish a Christian lifestyle in their new homeland.
The Declaration of Independence tells us, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator. . ." Obviously the writers and signers of this document believed in our Creator.
And the First Amendment of our Constitution tells us, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;. . ." This tells me that Congress will not establish a national church -- and that Congress, nor any part of the United States government will stop anyone from worshipping God when and where they please -- or not to worship if that is a person's desire. Sadly, this guaranty of our freedom in America has been badly abused in the last fifty years.
So, BeternU, even if you are ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- and if Neal wants to appear intellectually above all this God stuff -- America was still founded as a Christian nation and America is still the most Christian nation on earth.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net
Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!
You ask, "Where's Bill Gray? Yoo Hoo...Bill, where are you?"
Well, as the great Andy Griffith said in "No Time for Sergeants" (1955), "I'm rat cheer!" The Shoals area is still my home town -- and I do not plan on letting that change. Even if I do reside in Californy.
And I do have a question for BeternU. You say to Neal Hughes, "BRAVO! Great post. One of the best short explications of the provenance of our laws that I have ever seen. I am a Christian, but I am often embarrassed and horrified by the ignorance and historical illiteracy of the theocratically-disposed partisans who would, if empowered, stretch and chop the laws of this nation to fit the Procrustean bed of their particular religious biases."
First of all, it seems you dug out your dusty old dictionary -- and tried to really lay one on us. Your statement reminds me of a Mark Twain quote, "Use plain, simple language, short words and brief sentences. That is the way to write English -- it is the modern way and the best way. Stick to it; don't let fluff and flowers and verbosity creep in. When you catch an adjective, kill it. No, I don't mean all, but kill most of them -- then the rest will be valuable. They weaken when they are close together. They give strength when they are wide apart."
And George Orwell advised in 1946, "Never use a long word where a short one will do."
But, that point made, I have just one question for you: "You say you are a Christian -- yet, you applaud when someone attempts to tear down the role of the Christian faith, the Bible, and the Ten Commandments in the founding and building of our country. What is your definition of a Christian?"
You say you are embarrassed and horrified by Christians who believe that our nation was founded and established as a Christian nation. Yet, there is ample proof of the influence of the Bible and the Christian faith in the founding of America. Start with the Mayflower Compact which begins, "IN THE name of God, Amen." It continues, "We whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread sovereign Lord, King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britain, France and Ireland king, defender of the faith, etc., having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith. . ." Sound to me like they meant to establish a Christian lifestyle in their new homeland.
The Declaration of Independence tells us, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator. . ." Obviously the writers and signers of this document believed in our Creator.
And the First Amendment of our Constitution tells us, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;. . ." This tells me that Congress will not establish a national church -- and that Congress, nor any part of the United States government will stop anyone from worshipping God when and where they please -- or not to worship if that is a person's desire. Sadly, this guaranty of our freedom in America has been badly abused in the last fifty years.
So, BeternU, even if you are ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- and if Neal wants to appear intellectually above all this God stuff -- America was still founded as a Christian nation and America is still the most Christian nation on earth.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net
Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!
quote:Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
However, the basic moral code we get most of our laws from and the basic moral code most all of America is raised with is derived directly from the Bible,
Show some evidence of this assertion.
quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Sound to me like they meant to establish a Christian lifestyle in their new homeland.
The Declaration of Independence tells us, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator. . ." Obviously the writers and signers of this document believed in our Creator.
No Bill, the founding fathers realized the errors of their predecessors and purposefully did not mention "god" in any of the founding documents. In fact, they specifically, consciously avoided the use ot any words that oculd be interpreted as suport for Christianity or any other religion.
This is a country by and for the People, not for the glory of god.
quote:Originally posted by GoFish:quote:Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
However, the basic moral code we get most of our laws from and the basic moral code most all of America is raised with is derived directly from the Bible,
Show some evidence of this assertion.
murder=bad....stealing=bad....child abuse=bad... prostitution=bad.... lying=bad...
adultery=bad....assault=bad.... drug use/alcoholism/smoking/etc.=bad
some of these are laws, some are basic moral codes that I believe even you would teach your kids.... where did these basic moral codes come from and why would we have any of our laws match up with the Bible?
Oh, that's right..your god Nothingness told us all about that stuff right?
quote:Originally posted by Peter Rielly:quote:Originally posted by GoFish:quote:Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
However, the basic moral code we get most of our laws from and the basic moral code most all of America is raised with is derived directly from the Bible,
Show some evidence of this assertion.
murder=bad....stealing=bad....child abuse=bad... prostitution=bad.... lying=bad...
adultery=bad....assault=bad.... drug use/alcoholism/smoking/etc.=bad
some of these are laws, some are basic moral codes that I believe even you would teach your kids
These laws existed long before the Bible was a twinkle in man's eye. Civilization would not exist if people did not adhere to a basic set of moral instructions. Even higher animals have been shown to exhibit morality. Morality is clearly an evolutionary, natural trait. No god necessary.
If you are moral because of threats from your god, then you are not a moral person.
I have to agree with you, Fish. Is it more honorable to be a good person in order to receive the rewards of heaven, or more honorable to be a good person because you are a good person? That is a lot to chew on.quote:Originally posted by GoFish:
If you are moral because of threats from your god, then you are not a moral person.
Hi Fish,
I know you have a problem with perception -- but, I never knew you had a problem with reading.
You say, "No Bill, the founding fathers realized the errors of their predecessors and purposefully did not mention "god" in any of the founding documents. In fact, they specifically, consciously avoided the use ot any words that oculd be interpreted as suport for Christianity or any other religion. This is a country by and for the People, not for the glory of god."
Once again -- and this time I will type slowly so that it will be easier for you to read:
The Mayflower Compact begins, "IN THE name of God, Amen."
It continues, "We whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread sovereign Lord, King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britain, France and Ireland king, defender of the faith, etc., having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith. . ."
Sound to me like they meant to establish a new homeland "For the glory of God" and for the "Advancement of the Christian faith."
Fish, I'm still typing slow:
The Declaration of Independence tells us, "We hold these truths to beself-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator. . ."
You might not recognize Him -- but this Creator they mention; that is God -- the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Real Deal.
I do hope I typed slow enough for you to read what was written by the Pilgrims who came to this country and by the founding fathers who wrote our Declaration of Independence.
And, I do believe that when the First Amendment of our Constitution was written, saying, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. . ." --- they had in mind to protect the religious and Christian practices of all Americans. Me to worship as a Christian. You to worship as an Atheist. They had us both in mind.
Fish, I sure hope I typed slow enough for the words of these great documents to sink in and be understood.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net
Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!
I know you have a problem with perception -- but, I never knew you had a problem with reading.
You say, "No Bill, the founding fathers realized the errors of their predecessors and purposefully did not mention "god" in any of the founding documents. In fact, they specifically, consciously avoided the use ot any words that oculd be interpreted as suport for Christianity or any other religion. This is a country by and for the People, not for the glory of god."
Once again -- and this time I will type slowly so that it will be easier for you to read:
The Mayflower Compact begins, "IN THE name of God, Amen."
It continues, "We whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread sovereign Lord, King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britain, France and Ireland king, defender of the faith, etc., having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith. . ."
Sound to me like they meant to establish a new homeland "For the glory of God" and for the "Advancement of the Christian faith."
Fish, I'm still typing slow:
The Declaration of Independence tells us, "We hold these truths to beself-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator. . ."
You might not recognize Him -- but this Creator they mention; that is God -- the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Real Deal.
I do hope I typed slow enough for you to read what was written by the Pilgrims who came to this country and by the founding fathers who wrote our Declaration of Independence.
And, I do believe that when the First Amendment of our Constitution was written, saying, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. . ." --- they had in mind to protect the religious and Christian practices of all Americans. Me to worship as a Christian. You to worship as an Atheist. They had us both in mind.
Fish, I sure hope I typed slow enough for the words of these great documents to sink in and be understood.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net
Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!
Bill, Bill, Bill, Bill, Bill! The Mayflower Compact! This was a bunch of separatists who were driven out of England to Holland then came onward to America, in short, "a self-selected group with a mission to purify the Church, and when that was not forthcming, to separate from it and the entire society under which it flourished." That is taken from old seminar notes, and later I used it in a review on Jack Green's seminal work on why The Chesapeake and not New England was the actual normative experience for the development of the North American colonies.
Plymouth Colony went away rapidly, becoming part of the Royal Colony of Mass. Once the second generation of Separatists were in America, they had to establish the "halfway convenant" whereby the kids could become baptized semi-members of the Congregational Church in N.E., but not full members until they had demonstrated enough "enthusiasm" and convinced of their own wretchedness and dependence upon God for their individual salvations.
In the Chesapeake, the Anglican established Church was the norm, and a non-Anglican sermon could not be preached in public. Quakers could be hanged in VA, Mass, etc. until Penn established the colony of Pennsylvania under Charles II (Penn's father was owed a lot of money from Charles I and was a Quaker), hence Pennsylvania was a bastion of religious freedom. Roger Williams and a band of outcasts from Mass. established Rhode Island as an enclave of religious freedom, unlike its neighbors of Connecticut, Mass. and NY.
NY was first Dutch Reformed established, then after conquered by Britain, the C. of England, with Protestant toleration allowed. In Maryland, the RC Church was the motive for the Calvert Family leading that colony's settlement, but later Anglicans came to dominate, with the Anglican Church established, but dissent tolerated. NC and SC were largely irreligous, especially for NC save for the coast, where the C of E was established.
As the growth of dissent grew among the common folk, the lack of bishops especially hindering the growth of the Anglican Church, and the fact that most of the clergy were "losers" who could not get a potition in Britain or Ireland, the toleration and acceptance of dissent rose, until despite de facto establishment, by the time of Jefferson, the Church was disestablished and the tithe transferred to the public welfare system. By that time, one could be on the vestry of an Anglican parish and not a member of the Church, as most of its duties were secular! Jefferson's children, KY and TN were never established in religion!
Mass. was the last state to do away with the established church in 1834. By then the majority of citizens were no longer members of the Congregational Church, Episcopalians and Unitarians predominating in Boston, and soon Roman Catholics.
The only groups who came as religious refugees were the Catholics from the Potato Famine, the various Anabaptist and Pietist sects such as the Mennonites and Amish, Jews from the pogroms of the Czarist Russia, and the original Separtist/Puritans of Plymouth. One could argue that the Jewish and Irish oppression was not as much religious per se, as it was socio-ethnic-economic.
In fact, one of the main grievences against the Crown by the leaders of the Revolution was the establishment of the RC Church in Quebec after it had been conquered by Britain in the 7 Years War (French and Indian War by US reckoning), along with the Proclamation of 1763 which prevented colonists from crossing the Appalachian Mountains and encroaching upon tribal lands.
The God of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution is not the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, rather the Great Architect of the Universe of Deism and Freemasonry.
I didn't sit through years of graduate seminars under Harold Selesky at UA on early Republic and Colonial History for nothing. I didn't study for my licenses as lay reader and eucharistic minister at my parish in NY for laughs.
"The Pilgrims set a precedent for godly government" is Whig history of the worst sort: it can't even be parsed out to be believable. The Puritans were wretched people whose legacy we are still trying to erradicate in the US: Quaker hangers, witch finders and sanctimonious scarlet letter hangers. In short, a bunch of bitter smug Calvinists whose demise ought to be daily celebrated for breaking their slim hold on power in the Northeast.
I wonder, Bill, what do you recommend for finding witches? Flotating or the mark of the Beast? Should they be hanged, burnt, or drawn and quartered? Perhaps hanged, drawn, then quartered and then burnt to be on the safe side?
That is the type of "America" your precious Puritans wanted. Thank God they were thwarted by the Enlightenment!
In closing, I can only thank the Lord that I was baptized a Methodist and confirmed an Episcopalian, and studied for too short a spell under the Jesuits at Creighton!
Plymouth Colony went away rapidly, becoming part of the Royal Colony of Mass. Once the second generation of Separatists were in America, they had to establish the "halfway convenant" whereby the kids could become baptized semi-members of the Congregational Church in N.E., but not full members until they had demonstrated enough "enthusiasm" and convinced of their own wretchedness and dependence upon God for their individual salvations.
In the Chesapeake, the Anglican established Church was the norm, and a non-Anglican sermon could not be preached in public. Quakers could be hanged in VA, Mass, etc. until Penn established the colony of Pennsylvania under Charles II (Penn's father was owed a lot of money from Charles I and was a Quaker), hence Pennsylvania was a bastion of religious freedom. Roger Williams and a band of outcasts from Mass. established Rhode Island as an enclave of religious freedom, unlike its neighbors of Connecticut, Mass. and NY.
NY was first Dutch Reformed established, then after conquered by Britain, the C. of England, with Protestant toleration allowed. In Maryland, the RC Church was the motive for the Calvert Family leading that colony's settlement, but later Anglicans came to dominate, with the Anglican Church established, but dissent tolerated. NC and SC were largely irreligous, especially for NC save for the coast, where the C of E was established.
As the growth of dissent grew among the common folk, the lack of bishops especially hindering the growth of the Anglican Church, and the fact that most of the clergy were "losers" who could not get a potition in Britain or Ireland, the toleration and acceptance of dissent rose, until despite de facto establishment, by the time of Jefferson, the Church was disestablished and the tithe transferred to the public welfare system. By that time, one could be on the vestry of an Anglican parish and not a member of the Church, as most of its duties were secular! Jefferson's children, KY and TN were never established in religion!
Mass. was the last state to do away with the established church in 1834. By then the majority of citizens were no longer members of the Congregational Church, Episcopalians and Unitarians predominating in Boston, and soon Roman Catholics.
The only groups who came as religious refugees were the Catholics from the Potato Famine, the various Anabaptist and Pietist sects such as the Mennonites and Amish, Jews from the pogroms of the Czarist Russia, and the original Separtist/Puritans of Plymouth. One could argue that the Jewish and Irish oppression was not as much religious per se, as it was socio-ethnic-economic.
In fact, one of the main grievences against the Crown by the leaders of the Revolution was the establishment of the RC Church in Quebec after it had been conquered by Britain in the 7 Years War (French and Indian War by US reckoning), along with the Proclamation of 1763 which prevented colonists from crossing the Appalachian Mountains and encroaching upon tribal lands.
The God of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution is not the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, rather the Great Architect of the Universe of Deism and Freemasonry.
I didn't sit through years of graduate seminars under Harold Selesky at UA on early Republic and Colonial History for nothing. I didn't study for my licenses as lay reader and eucharistic minister at my parish in NY for laughs.
"The Pilgrims set a precedent for godly government" is Whig history of the worst sort: it can't even be parsed out to be believable. The Puritans were wretched people whose legacy we are still trying to erradicate in the US: Quaker hangers, witch finders and sanctimonious scarlet letter hangers. In short, a bunch of bitter smug Calvinists whose demise ought to be daily celebrated for breaking their slim hold on power in the Northeast.
I wonder, Bill, what do you recommend for finding witches? Flotating or the mark of the Beast? Should they be hanged, burnt, or drawn and quartered? Perhaps hanged, drawn, then quartered and then burnt to be on the safe side?
That is the type of "America" your precious Puritans wanted. Thank God they were thwarted by the Enlightenment!
In closing, I can only thank the Lord that I was baptized a Methodist and confirmed an Episcopalian, and studied for too short a spell under the Jesuits at Creighton!
quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:
The Mayflower Compact begins, "IN THE name of God, Amen."
You may not be aware that the Pilgrims did not actually found this country, Bill. Yes, they were fundies. They were escaping religious persecution. But had they had their way, they would have had their own theocracy instead of insisting on religious freedom.
quote:The Declaration of Independence tells us, "We hold these truths to beself-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator. . ." You might not recognize Him -- but this Creator they mention; that is God -- the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Real Deal.
No, Bill. Please whip out a history book sometime. Our founders purposefully used the word "Creator" as a tip of the hat to a beef in a deity. If they wanted to say "Jesus" or the "God of Jehova" they damm well would have. But, no, they chose "Creator."
quote:to say that these words are no,no's based on God's teaching is untrue. Society will often create rules that have little or nothing to do with God, as long as those rules don't obviously go against God then it's no biggie.
the 'F' (fornication) in your example, is condemned by God in the Bible...
1 Corinthians 6:9.
........................................................................................
Yes, but the specific "curse words" I listed, most of which were blocked out, are meaningless. those are words created, and labled by society, not God. If you stump your toe and scream s#*!, that is no worse than screaming crap or fiddlesticks or hoochimomma. that's my point, the actual word is meaningless.
[quote]
and THAT's my point..a 'meaningless' word would be unecessary to the conversation, thus 'idle', and God says we'll answer for those words...society might have 'made them up', but they have common meanings among us..and most of those meanings aren't so nice..i'll err on the side of NOT using them...to each his own...
quote:Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
The Ten Commandments were set out mainly for a specific group of people at a specific time in history. The base message is very important however, and what is more important is Jesus' teachings of the Ten Commandments.
Also a focus on the Ten Commandments takes focus away from the entire scope of the Bible, and what we are to learn from it.
Well said.
Hi Neal,
You say, "The Mayflower Compact! This was a bunch of separatists who were driven out of England to Holland then came onward to America, in short, 'a self-selected group with a mission to purify the Church, and when that was not forthcoming, to separate from it and the entire society under which it flourished.'"
Actually, the Puritans were the group of folks dissatisfied with the Church of England -- but, who chose to stay and try to purify it from within. The Separatists were the folks who were just tired of the Church of England -- and wanted no part of changing it or purifying it. They just wanted out. These Separatists became known as the Pilgrims. Pilgrims and Puritans are two totally different groups.
You are right that, because of persecution, they chose to leave England and go to Holland. They found that society to loose and not a place to raise a family, returned to England -- and contracted with the Plymouth Company in England to settle in America and do their trading exclusively with the Plymouth Company as payment for funding their trip.
Their intended destination was the colony of Virginia -- but, bad weather, and maybe God, drove them to land in Massachusetts. Here they named it Plymouth and settled. Before coming ashore, the men gathered, wrote, and signed the Mayflower Compact. This was the first attempt at putting a new form of government into writing in the new land. In the Mayflower Compact, they specifically stated that their purpose was to glorify God and to establish a Christian way of life in their new homeland.
True, these were not the men we call our founding fathers. But, their Mayflower Compact and their lives greatly influenced their descendants who wrote the Declaration of Independence. America was definitely settled and begun as a Christian nation -- and America is still the most Christian nation on earth.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net
Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!
You say, "The Mayflower Compact! This was a bunch of separatists who were driven out of England to Holland then came onward to America, in short, 'a self-selected group with a mission to purify the Church, and when that was not forthcoming, to separate from it and the entire society under which it flourished.'"
Actually, the Puritans were the group of folks dissatisfied with the Church of England -- but, who chose to stay and try to purify it from within. The Separatists were the folks who were just tired of the Church of England -- and wanted no part of changing it or purifying it. They just wanted out. These Separatists became known as the Pilgrims. Pilgrims and Puritans are two totally different groups.
You are right that, because of persecution, they chose to leave England and go to Holland. They found that society to loose and not a place to raise a family, returned to England -- and contracted with the Plymouth Company in England to settle in America and do their trading exclusively with the Plymouth Company as payment for funding their trip.
Their intended destination was the colony of Virginia -- but, bad weather, and maybe God, drove them to land in Massachusetts. Here they named it Plymouth and settled. Before coming ashore, the men gathered, wrote, and signed the Mayflower Compact. This was the first attempt at putting a new form of government into writing in the new land. In the Mayflower Compact, they specifically stated that their purpose was to glorify God and to establish a Christian way of life in their new homeland.
True, these were not the men we call our founding fathers. But, their Mayflower Compact and their lives greatly influenced their descendants who wrote the Declaration of Independence. America was definitely settled and begun as a Christian nation -- and America is still the most Christian nation on earth.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net
Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!
Hi Fish,
You say, and I find it hard to believe that you said this, "No, Bill. Please whip out a history book sometime. Our founders purposefully used the word "Creator" as a tip of the hat to a beef in a deity. If they wanted to say "Jesus" or the "God of Jehova" they damm well would have. But, no, they chose 'Creator.'"
Fish, if even you went on the street and asked 1000 people who is the Creator -- how many would not say He is God? In the past, you have really gone off the deep end. But, this takes the cake.
Even for an atheist, Creator means God. Now, maybe you might find one or two atheist with an IQ in the 25 to 30 range who might respond to the question with a, "Duh! What you mean?" But, I believe that most atheist are reasonably intelligent, although confused, individuals. Fish, I believe you are intelligent. But, I do have to admit that with this response -- I have had to wonder.
I promise you, Fish, even in 1776 when they wrote the Declaration of Independence, if someone spoke of the Creator, he meant God. And, today, in 2008, when anyone speaks of the Creator, he means God.
You can use your atheistic ploy of attempting to twist words all you want -- but the Creator always was God -- and the Creator always will be God.
And, one day EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess Jesus Christ as Lord and God (Philippians 2:9-11).
But, for many, it will be too late.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net
Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!
You say, and I find it hard to believe that you said this, "No, Bill. Please whip out a history book sometime. Our founders purposefully used the word "Creator" as a tip of the hat to a beef in a deity. If they wanted to say "Jesus" or the "God of Jehova" they damm well would have. But, no, they chose 'Creator.'"
Fish, if even you went on the street and asked 1000 people who is the Creator -- how many would not say He is God? In the past, you have really gone off the deep end. But, this takes the cake.
Even for an atheist, Creator means God. Now, maybe you might find one or two atheist with an IQ in the 25 to 30 range who might respond to the question with a, "Duh! What you mean?" But, I believe that most atheist are reasonably intelligent, although confused, individuals. Fish, I believe you are intelligent. But, I do have to admit that with this response -- I have had to wonder.
I promise you, Fish, even in 1776 when they wrote the Declaration of Independence, if someone spoke of the Creator, he meant God. And, today, in 2008, when anyone speaks of the Creator, he means God.
You can use your atheistic ploy of attempting to twist words all you want -- but the Creator always was God -- and the Creator always will be God.
And, one day EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess Jesus Christ as Lord and God (Philippians 2:9-11).
But, for many, it will be too late.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net
Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!
quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Fish, if even you went on the street and asked 1000 people who is the Creator -- how many would not say He is God? In the past, you have really gone off the deep end. But, this takes the cake.
Even for an atheist, Creator means God.
No, Bill, I choose to believe that our creator is an uncaring universe. Our creator is evolution. A Buddhist can choose to believe the Creator is . . . Whatever Buddhists believe created them. Norwegians can believe it was Thor. American Indians can believe it was the Great Mole.
quote:I promise you, Fish, even in 1776 when they wrote the Declaration of Independence, if someone spoke of the Creator, he meant God. And, today, in 2008, when anyone speaks of the Creator, he means God.
Why do you think they avoided using "Jesus," Bill?
Let's take a look at what the founding fathers had to say about God, Jesus and religion, Bill:
Thomas Jefferson (he WROTE the DoI, Bill) has this to say about religion: "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."
John Adams said, "Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole cartloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" He also stated, ""The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."
Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli where he stated, "The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."
Thomas Paine said, "I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to
that book (the Bible)."
James Madison said, "What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on
civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyrrany. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."
Bill, there are reams of documents written by the very hand of the Founders themselves that say you are dead wrong about the US being founded on Christian principals. The fact that you deny this undeniable fact tells much about your penchant for being dishonest.
Like so many other things, you are ignorant of the FACTS of our history, Bill. Pick up a history book. You might learn something.
Bill, I did not clarify enough for you: indeed, the Separatists are now differentiated from mere Puritans (who chose to remain with the C of E). I assumed that my use of the word Separatist and your own tremendous learned knowledge of religious history would be enough for you, therefore my use of purify the church was used rather than "Puritan" and "Church". The capitalization of them being the province of proper nouns, and since the Separatists did first, truly, desire merely to purify the Church (of England -- hence the capitalization) and separated only when they found that purification was not forthcoming, I chose the use of majiscule and miniscule letters most carefully.
I therefore reject your belief that I somehow confounded the two groups. The two parties began as one, then the more radical, the Separatists, were, indeed the ones who came to Holland then America, the others choosing to "stay and fight" in England and Ireland, within the Church of England.
However, the Mayflower Compact did little to inform the establishment of the foundation of the United States, if anything. Merely because one event occurs before a later one does not prove causation. This logical fallacy is called "post hoc propter hoc" or "after this, because of this," and David Hackett Fischer discusses it among other fallacies in his seminal work Historians' Fallacies.
Indeed, his other magnus opus, Albion's Seed, while rejected by some as too overarching, is still a great resource for the historiography of the creation of various regional identities in the US stemming from the socio-religio-economic origins of the founding colonists and early settler of the US.
But when all is said and done, the Separatists were evil people who were convinced of their own superiority and correctness of belief, to the exclusion of all others. They believed in witch trials, demons and obedience to their "betters". That is not the type of country (a superstitious judgemental one) which the USA became, and hopefully their significance is soon to be replaced from idolization to condemnation in popular culture.
What is your opinion on Rhys Isaac's thesis that the Anglican establishment in Virginia was "tolerant" of the rise of the "common man" by way of the Baptist and Methodist and New Light Presbyterian movements and thus sided with them as they knew that they needed them in the fight for liberty against the Crown, especially after Bacon's Rebellion?
I therefore reject your belief that I somehow confounded the two groups. The two parties began as one, then the more radical, the Separatists, were, indeed the ones who came to Holland then America, the others choosing to "stay and fight" in England and Ireland, within the Church of England.
However, the Mayflower Compact did little to inform the establishment of the foundation of the United States, if anything. Merely because one event occurs before a later one does not prove causation. This logical fallacy is called "post hoc propter hoc" or "after this, because of this," and David Hackett Fischer discusses it among other fallacies in his seminal work Historians' Fallacies.
Indeed, his other magnus opus, Albion's Seed, while rejected by some as too overarching, is still a great resource for the historiography of the creation of various regional identities in the US stemming from the socio-religio-economic origins of the founding colonists and early settler of the US.
But when all is said and done, the Separatists were evil people who were convinced of their own superiority and correctness of belief, to the exclusion of all others. They believed in witch trials, demons and obedience to their "betters". That is not the type of country (a superstitious judgemental one) which the USA became, and hopefully their significance is soon to be replaced from idolization to condemnation in popular culture.
What is your opinion on Rhys Isaac's thesis that the Anglican establishment in Virginia was "tolerant" of the rise of the "common man" by way of the Baptist and Methodist and New Light Presbyterian movements and thus sided with them as they knew that they needed them in the fight for liberty against the Crown, especially after Bacon's Rebellion?
The matrix of our nation, the Constitution, mentions religion twice. Once, in the First Amendment, and again when it says "there shall be no religious test for elected office".
Doesn't sound very theocratic to me.
The Founding Daddy-Os were wise to keep religion and state separate, to the benefit of both.
We have two candidates of untraditional religious viewpoints running, Messrs Obama and Romney. Either could become President. Regarding their religions, I could not care less. In this country, it should not matter. It is to the country's credit that they are both doing well, their religious disharmonics notwithstanding.
This may be a religious country, but we enjoy a secular government, and we should.
Mr. Adams was quite correct when he wrote "The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." Or are you accusing President Adams of lying?
DF
Doesn't sound very theocratic to me.
The Founding Daddy-Os were wise to keep religion and state separate, to the benefit of both.
We have two candidates of untraditional religious viewpoints running, Messrs Obama and Romney. Either could become President. Regarding their religions, I could not care less. In this country, it should not matter. It is to the country's credit that they are both doing well, their religious disharmonics notwithstanding.
This may be a religious country, but we enjoy a secular government, and we should.
Mr. Adams was quite correct when he wrote "The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." Or are you accusing President Adams of lying?
DF
Hi Neal,
You say, "Bill, I did not clarify enough for you: indeed, the Separatists are now differentiated from mere Puritans (who chose to remain with the C of E). I assumed that my use of the word Separatist and your own tremendous learned knowledge of religious history would be enough for you. . ."
That might be true if it were just you and me dialoguing. However, since we have a great number of people reading the Forum who may or may not respond; but, instead just read and may believe what we write -- we must make every effort to be concise and correct.
That was my point in making the distinction between the two groups.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
You say, "Bill, I did not clarify enough for you: indeed, the Separatists are now differentiated from mere Puritans (who chose to remain with the C of E). I assumed that my use of the word Separatist and your own tremendous learned knowledge of religious history would be enough for you. . ."
That might be true if it were just you and me dialoguing. However, since we have a great number of people reading the Forum who may or may not respond; but, instead just read and may believe what we write -- we must make every effort to be concise and correct.
That was my point in making the distinction between the two groups.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
Kudo's to Bill...great job.Go Fish..I was taught in school ,T.M. Rogers located in Greenhill Al.,that our country was founded on christian principals!! I guess we've all been lied to our entire lives by the educational system.
Here's an idea,if you don;t believe in God why not go live in another country say...Iraq.
Ms Wonka,
Iraq is a highly religious country. Almost all of them believe in god.
What did you mean?
DF
Iraq is a highly religious country. Almost all of them believe in god.
What did you mean?
DF
quote:Originally posted by ms. wonka:
I guess we've all been lied to our entire lives by the educational system.
Funny thing is, the older you get, the more you realize that's exactly what has happened to some extent.
No, they believe in Allah...not our God.
Ms. Wonka,
"Allah" is just Arabic for "god". He's the god of Abraham. Same god of the Jews and the Christians.
Did you seriously not know that?
DF
"Allah" is just Arabic for "god". He's the god of Abraham. Same god of the Jews and the Christians.
Did you seriously not know that?
DF
you sure know alot about God not to be a believer. See I knew their was hope for you yet
quote:Originally posted by ms. wonka:
No, they believe in Allah...not our God.
Well, as long as our God can beat up their God, I guess we're ok then!
I know a lot about Zeus and Thor and Wotan, too. Does that make them legitimate?
And WZ... it's the same god, he can't beat himself up to any advantage.
DF
And WZ... it's the same god, he can't beat himself up to any advantage.
DF
quote:Originally posted by DeepFat:
I know a lot about Zeus and Thor and Wotan, too. Does that make them legitimate?
And WZ... it's the same god, he can't beat himself up to any advantage.
DF
well acknowledging God is the step in the right direction
I acknowledge that three different pre-scientific cultures had three different descriptions of an ancient desert god of a tribe of herdsmen.
DF
DF
quote:Originally posted by DeepFat:
And WZ... it's the same god, he can't beat himself up to any advantage.
DF
I'm aware. Just trying to inject a little sarcastic humor.quote:Originally posted by ms. wonka:
No, they believe in Allah...not our God.
Ms. Wonker is typing in tongues here. A vertitable Afro-Asiatic linguistic scholar here, we have onboard, and a comparative religion expert, as well. How blessed we are.
Ms. Wonker, what do you think that people say in Arabic when they say "GOD?" Why, just like people in Russia say "Bog," and those in Germany and Austria say "Gott," they say Allah."Allah, El, Elohim are all Arabic/Hebrew congnates of Lord, or GOD. The root is the letter "L". Just like the Arabic word for peace, hello, and a general nice word is "salaam," in Hebrew it is "shalom." Notice anything similar going on there? Think the slm might be a kinda root of similar languages?
Allah is actually closer in Muslim thought to Yahweh (EL) in Hebrew/Jewish thought. Omniscient, omnipotent, and singular. No trinity, no division, the creator of all that is seen and unseen. In Islam Allah created Adam from dust and breathed life into him, just like the Genesis story. The Noahide Flood is taught. Isa and Yaya (Jesus and John the Baptist), along with Miryan (Mary) are exalted in Isalm, alongside Ibrahim (Abraham).
Are you sure that Allah isn't the same God that the apostles and prophets of old taught? Adam, Eve, Abraham, Noah, Jesus, John the Baptist, the BV Mary . . . sounds too close to be a coinkydink to me!
quote:Originally posted by GoFish:quote:Originally posted by Peter Rielly:quote:Originally posted by GoFish:quote:Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
However, the basic moral code we get most of our laws from and the basic moral code most all of America is raised with is derived directly from the Bible,
Show some evidence of this assertion.
murder=bad....stealing=bad....child abuse=bad... prostitution=bad.... lying=bad...
adultery=bad....assault=bad.... drug use/alcoholism/smoking/etc.=bad
some of these are laws, some are basic moral codes that I believe even you would teach your kids
These laws existed long before the Bible was a twinkle in man's eye. Civilization would not exist if people did not adhere to a basic set of moral instructions. Even higher animals have been shown to exhibit morality. Morality is clearly an evolutionary, natural trait. No god necessary.
If you are moral because of threats from your god, then you are not a moral person.
I love how atheist are so EVIDENCE driven when wanting explainations from believers, yet you would throw that out there with NO evidence at all. #1, I didn't say morality began after the Bible...did I??? nope, didn't think so. However, this country DID begin after the Bible and it is more than clear that many of our laws and moral codes line up with the Bible...and not by coincidence. You don't have to believe the Bible to believe that...That's a fact whether you think the Bible is the Word of God or a fairy tale.