The Beginning Of The Creation

Oh! I KNOW! I KNOW! One attains salvation through the sacraments of Baptism, in which we enter into Christ's death,so we may rise with Him. And also by partaking in the Holy Eucharist.
AND by confessing our sins regularly, doing pennance, and being Christ's love in this world for others.
BUT we are not guaranteed anything. We are in serious trouble if we claim that we KNOW we are saved.
We need to pray for mercy that we will be given eternal life with Christ and not what we truly deserve.
Sorry to butt in, but this is one answer that I **DO** know and love to share!
As for end times, it's a mystery,now, isn't it. Christ clearly said that nobody will know the day nor the hour, but He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead. And we pray for the living,and the dead,that He will raise us up on that last day. the end.

What in the world is "eternal security?" Where is that in the Bible or any Ecumenical Creed? Riddle me that. I did not get no fancy book learning about no 'ternal security. Nor do I know anything about birthing babies or snake handling.

It is simple: believe in love the Lord thy God with all your heart and all your strength and take up your cross and follow Him. That means to follow His commandments, His Church, and His examples.

I wonder where y'all come up with all these little quaint revival terms, anyhow, "get saved," "Tribulation," "Rapture," "Sinners' Prayer," etc.? Did it come in a crackerjack box or is just a translation from the Latin and Greek of the Apostles and Church Fathers? I wonder because it certainly is not in the Holy Scriptures! Maybe that talking snake whispered it to you in a dream -- he is one sneaky dog -- or is it that your crystal worker and astrologer got together and worked it out for you?

Aude Sapere, Eternal Security is another word for "once saved always saved". once you are saved you can't be lost, I know better and maybe you do to, but that is what foundation Bill's religion is based on, and John 10 27-29.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

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Originally posted by vplee123:
Oh! I KNOW! I KNOW! One attains salvation through the sacraments of Baptism, in which we enter into Christ's death,so we may rise with Him. And also by partaking in the Holy Eucharist.
AND by confessing our sins regularly, doing pennance, and being Christ's love in this world for others.
BUT we are not guaranteed anything. We are in serious trouble if we claim that we KNOW we are saved.
We need to pray for mercy that we will be given eternal life with Christ and not what we truly deserve.
Sorry to butt in, but this is one answer that I **DO** know and love to share!
As for end times, it's a mystery,now, isn't it. Christ clearly said that nobody will know the day nor the hour, but He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead. And we pray for the living,and the dead,that He will raise us up on that last day. the end.

There are as many views of scripture as there are people, one might say, and while I understand that not everyone has or will have the same belief or understanding as I do I would like to share a few thoughts regarding some of your comments and the following verses:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NIV) 13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.

Note in vs 13 "Brothers" are addressed as the recipients of this word therefore it is being told, written to, saved people, Christians that is. The talk is regarding the dead or those who have died and left this physical life. He also points out in vs 13 that there are Christians and non-Christians that have to deal with death only non-Christians he refers to as those that have no hope., Vs 14 again declares what defines a Christian "Belief" and that those who have died as Christians will be brought by Jesus at the time of His future coming. vs 15 .. those believers alive at the time of Christ coming will not be "raptured" or precede those that have died ( in Christ ). Verses 16 & 17 is referring to that which many call the Rapture, the catching up of the Christians who have died and those Christians that are alive at the time of the Rapture to be translated into their new spiritual body. Vs 18 tells Christians to encourage each other with the words about how both the Christians that have died as well as those that persevere during the time of Christ future coming will be taken care of by God/Christ.

Now regarding your point about no one knowing ..
Reference the following:
1 Thessalonians 5:1-8 (NIV) 1 Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

Again this is written to Brothers, Christians, fellow believers. Verse 5:1, 2, & 3 taken by themselves and alone reinforce what you have said about knowing about the times of Christ Coming for the Saints (dead and alive) known or said by many as "The Rapture" or Catching up. But verse 4 follows and also is to the same Christians that the book was written to. Note it says YOU BROTHERS .. that's fellow Christians are NOT in darkness that this day should surprise you.

I've posted many times and gone around, with Bill, about this but I not only believe fully that the Church and many Christians will have to endure events that will happen before the Rapture, events that are by some termed as part of the Tribulation period and more specifically the seals of Chapter 6 of Revelation and then the Rapture will come in Revelation 7:9. Christ foretold these events to his disciples in the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24. Christ told of this future Rapture and events in the following versses:
Matthew 24:29-31 (NIV) 29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

So ... Christians are not in darkness but have warning signs (cosmic signs) that will precede when Christ will return to Rapture the dead and alive to himself, in the air. For that reason Brothers (Christians) are not or should not be in total darkness about the future events.

Again I realize that many will not see it this way. This is what I believe the Scriptures say and that the scriptures I have highlighted say. While many will disagree I hope we can do so respectfully and lovingly.

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Again I realize that many will not see it this way. This is what I believe the Scriptures say and that the scriptures I have highlighted say. While many will disagree I hope we can do so respectfully and lovingly.
Posts: 1036

I sincerely appreciate your comments. Respectfully and lovingly are the 2 smartest things I've heard on this forum in a while. We are not giving glory to God with bickering, and picking apart His words. Thank you for your comments!

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Originally posted by prince albert:
Aude Sapere, Eternal Security is another word for "once saved always saved". once you are saved you can't be lost, I know better and maybe you do to, but that is what foundation Bill's religion is based on, and John 10 27-29.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

One point about "Eternal Salvation" or "Eternal Security". While many do use the very verses you cited as their proof of that very point I would like to add why many believe such.

First it centers around Scripture's promise that those who accept Christ, are Saved are given the Holy Spirit to dwell (literally live) within their bodies along with their created spirit.

John 14:15 (NIV) 15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. John 14:16 (NIV) 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- John 14:17 (NIV) 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

Romans 8:9 (NIV) 9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Romans 8:10 (NIV) 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. Romans 8:11 (NIV) 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

also

1 Corinthians 3:16 (NIV) 16 Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 1 Corinthians 6:19 (NIV) 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

Given that the Holy Spirit of God, God Himself resides within the Christian's body as a Guarantee of Salvation in order for Satan to win back this person, the person to lose their salvation, then the Holy Spirit would have to be overcome and defeated otherwise it is the Holy Spirit of God who protects the Christian and no one is stronger or greater than God. It is this same indwelling Holy Spirit that is grieved when a Christian sins or lives a lifestyle of Sinning against God. Rather than leaving the Holy Spirit is grieved by our actions.

Ephesians 4:30 (AMP) 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God [do not offend or vex or sadden Him], by Whom you were sealed (marked, branded as God's own, secured) for the day of redemption (of final deliverance through Christ from evil and the consequences of sin).

If it was possible for a person to sin to the point of losing the Holy Spirit, our guarantee.

Ephesians 4:30 (AMP) 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God [do not offend or vex or sadden Him], by Whom you were sealed (marked, branded as God's own, secured) for the day of redemption (of final deliverance through Christ from evil and the consequences of sin).

It is based upon the ability of God (the Holy Spirit ) to protect, hold, maintain, the Saint or saved person's salvation that the concept of "Eternal Security" comes from and is based upon.

Hi GB,

Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, not the Rapture. We know this because we are told in Matthew 24:30, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

At the Rapture, only believers will see the Lord in the clouds. For the Lord will come, we know not when, like a "thief in the night" and take us, snatch up, rapture, His church from earth. This will happen in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15:52). In other words, the Lord will appear in the clouds -- then, we Christians will be snatched up, raptured, in a split second -- so fast that the world will not know what has happened. To them, suddenly millions, maybe billions, of people were there -- then, quicker than they could blink their eyes -- they were gone.

In the case of the Rapture -- He will come FOR His church.

Now, those who have read of or been told of the Rapture -- will begin to put two and two together and realize what has happened. But, unfortunately, these folks, even though they see the Light, will be left behind and will have to endure the Tribulation. We know from the Bible that the harvest of souls, those saved, during the Tribulation will be a number too great to count. In other words, the Rapture will cause many to reevaluate their lives -- and get on the path to glory with God. But, still, these new Christians will have to suffer, and many die, be martyred for their faith, in the Tribulation.

Yet, at His Second Coming -- all the world will see Him coming in glory -- and He will be coming WITH His church, the Bride of Christ. All the world will see Him during His Second Coming and they will mourn -- for they will know that it is now time to pay the piper -- to settle accounts with the Son of God.

Yes, Christians will endure the Tribulation -- but, only those who became believers AFTER the Rapture.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Dude, there is no rapture or tribulation chosen just for plot device! We are constantly under assail for our faith. We see the hungry and the thirsty and scurry past them, telling ourselves that once my business is done, I'll go back to them. . . . but we forget to remember on purpose.

We are not puppets and God is not the puppet master. We have free will to choose the left hand or the right hand path. We do have a bless3ed map to keep us on track, and that is the Church and all she encompasses, from Holy Scripture to comfortable sacraments, to Our Lord's Own Examples.

How the world ends or was created is about as germane as whether the chicken or egg was here first! We are here. We do have a pathway. We do have the Holy Spirit. It is like arguing about the chosen word for English translation for "serpent" in the Garden of Eden story: was it a snake or a snake that had legs and then lost them as some allege? Would that be a lizard then? Would that be evolution, by chance, a most interesting amount of sand to throw into the gears' lubrication that concept!

Why was the world united about the basics of the end times and salvation and the sacraments until the 1500s? Then it got interesting, but by the late 1800s it just got and stays just plain weird with snake handlers, revival tents, jets for tv preachers and their wigs, novel innovations such as "prosperity preaching" and the ever exciting "rapture and tribulation for fun and profit."

There is no point arguing with the insane and seriously brain damaged unless it is for fun and the edification of those who are alongside for the joyride.

Hi Neal/Aude,

It would have been simpler -- and more to the point -- to just say, "Bill, I cannot answer those questions because I do not know."

That anyone can respect. But, you always insist upon loud pontification and blustering; your trademark.

So, okay, I am taking this as an "I don't know" answer.

Nice chatting with you, Neal.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

In no way was that an "I don't know" answer.
Your questions were answered. They were answered very well, in my opinion.

I will echo this, by saying we have free will. We reject God every time we sin. Every time we see a hungry person and don't feed them.
A very wise Priest (Father John Corapi, SOLT)
once said, everytime you see someone in need, you see Jesus. Do you pass them by?
Sometimes? When you're in a hurry? See, that is the key- Jesus said "so whatever you do to the least of my brothers, you do unto Me.".
We must continually do God's work, be pleasing to Him, accept his gifts and mercy in the sacraments, and pray that somehow, through His mercy we are raised up with Him.
I am not sure why you slam this individuals posts the way you do, but it is certainly not kind nor attractive to other Christians. It sounds like you're the authority- you're not- we're all equals here, arent we.

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1. How does one attain salvation?

2. Can one KNOW that he/she has eternal security in Jesus Christ?

3. A number of times I have given my view of the End Times, which you always deny. Please, in as few words as possible, without hate filled sarcasm -- can you explain YOUR view of what will happen in the End Times?

1. Through good works a sincere belief in the Lord.

2. No. No one can "know" despite your snake handler's insistence to the contrary. There are many paths to salvation. While I've never outright denied His presence, I fervently hope that the God of infinite love and mercy will understand why I wavered from time to time. I've spent my life in an earnest and honest attempt to understand and worship God with the best facilities He gave unto me. A lifetime of devotion to Him, good works, combating evil where I see it (which includes battling people like you who are doing everything you can to push people away from grace), my acceptance of Jesus as a great humanitarian, SHOULD cement my place in heaven. If it does not, then God isn't the merciful being I thought he was so I'd want no part of it, anyway.

3. Oh please. The "End Times" were fully expected by all the apostles to happen within their lifetime. 2000 years later, still no apocalypse. While I hope mankind will overcome his tendency to blow up the world, I suspect he won't. So the end times will likely come but it won't be by the hand of the Lord. It will be from Muslim people who, like you, cannot think past their religion and will actually celebrate that blinding nuclear flash over Israel as a sign that the prophet has returned.

When you consider that Rome was undertaking a vast and rapid expansion and killing Christians like a child stomping an any pile, then you can understand why these poor people thought the End was Near. I'm sure they would be just as dismayed as I am that, 2000 years later, ignorant people have forgotten their struggles.


So BG you can stop with your insistence that you "know" this or "know" that. You don't. None of us do. We are imperfect beings living in an imperfect world feeling our way towards salvation as best we can.

Right on, SK. Tell it like it is, brother.

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When you consider that Rome was undertaking a vast and rapid expansion and killing Christians like a child stomping an any pile

That should read "ANT" pile. Not "any."

Hi all,

Since several people have responded that we are saved by "good works" -- I guess I have just one question. How do you explain Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

This Scripture passage tells me that we are not saved through ANY WORKS -- not through helping the poor, not through baptism, not through attending mass, not through ANY WORKS.

How do you read this passage?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Since several people have responded that we are saved by "good works" -- I guess I have just one question. How do you explain Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

This Scripture passage tells me that we are not saved through ANY WORKS -- not through helping the poor, not through baptism, not through attending mass, not through ANY WORKS.

In English that reads: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

You believe you have been saved by your faith alone. I'm afraid that is not enough. I think it explains perfectly why you believe you can say whatever the heck you want and separate other people from God.

I believe it means that all the good works you do are, alone, not enough alone to get your ticket to heaven punched. You must also have faith. I've always had faith. I've not always had belief. That will be an impossible concept to a snake handler but it is what it is. I'm as comfortable as a human can be that my place in heaven is assured but I back up my faith with good deeds.

Your primitive faith gives you the audicity to play God's henchman and dare to inform others of their final resting spot. How dare you.

You obviously beleive that you can do and say whatever the heck you want, no matter how hurtful and spiteful, because you have 100% "faith" of your place in heaven. That fire and brimstone kind of hateful Christianity should have died long ago. It's no wonder the "none of the above" are the fastest growing segment of the religion landscape today.

Peter said "Love covers a multitude of sins." The only way to love others is by doing good unto them. GOOD DEEDS Bill Gray. That means refraining from sicking Jesus on them! That means NOT SPREADING A MESSAGE OF HATE which seems to be all you are capable of.

For all we know, Bill, the atheists that you love to wrangle with are angels sent to test your love for your fellow man. Think about it.

Hi Sofa,

When I asked what Ephesians 2:8-9 is telling us, you tell me, "I believe it means that all the good works you do are, alone, not enough alone to get your ticket to heaven punched. You must also have faith. I've always had faith. I've not always had belief. That will be an impossible concept to a snake handler but it is what it is. I'm as comfortable as a human can be that my place in heaven is assured but I back up my faith with good deeds."

You are partially right; that good works will not get you into heaven. This passage in Ephesians confirms that. We are saved by grace through faith -- plus nothing else.

However, once saved, we do need to show the fruit of our salvation. Keep in mind that the fruit of our salvation does not in any way earn us salvation -- but, it shows that we are trying to be true Christ Followers after we are saved. Yes, James 2:17 tells us, "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself."

So, if we have salvation but do not follow this up by showing the fruit of our salvation -- our salvation is dead. Yet, we still have salvation. But, at the Bema Seat Judgment -- we will come up empty in the rewards department.

The passage in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 makes it clear what happens to a person who is saved, but has no fruit to show for his salvation, "According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

After our salvation is assured, i.e., we are born again -- Jesus tells us to Go, Make Disciples, Baptize Them, Teach Them (Matthew 28:19-20). Then He tells us in Acts 1:8 and in Mark 16:15 to be His witnesses to all the world. This is the fruit He wants to see from us -- bringing the Gospel of Salvation to all the unsaved souls. He wants as many as possible to be saved. After all, He died on the cross to offer them salvation. So, when we fail to share His Gospel with folks who need to hear it -- we are not doing the "works" He wants from us.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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You are partially right;

There you go again judging me from your pearly loft of pride. Who, exactly, are you to tell me I am wrong about anything in the bible? It is a book inspired by God and written by fallible MEN, Bill. You and I are as blind people feeling our way down the hall as best we can. All we can say with some relative certainty is that we are both headed down the hall. How dare you claim you can see better than I.

No, I am as right about this topic (and with God) as any imperfect human can be. We both agree that faith and deeds do not stand alone. I guess that is enough.

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Yet, we still have salvation. But, at the Bema Seat Judgment -- we will come up empty in the rewards department.

More fire and brimstone craziness. You make salvation sound like some kind of credit card rewards program for loyal customers.

Hi Sofa,

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Need I say more? ALL SCRIPTURE is authored, inspired, by God. God does not make mistakes; He never has to say, "Oops!"

So, no, the Bible is not just a good book written by men. The Bible is the Written Word of God -- just as Jesus Christ is the Living Word of God.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi GB,

Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, not the Rapture. We know this because we are told in Matthew 24:30, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

At the Rapture, only believers will see the Lord in the clouds. For the Lord will come, we know not when, like a "thief in the night" and take us, snatch up, rapture, His church from earth. This will happen in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15:52). In other words, the Lord will appear in the clouds -- then, we Christians will be snatched up, raptured, in a split second -- so fast that the world will not know what has happened. To them, suddenly millions, maybe billions, of people were there -- then, quicker than they could blink their eyes -- they were gone.

In the case of the Rapture -- He will come FOR His church.

Now, those who have read of or been told of the Rapture -- will begin to put two and two together and realize what has happened. But, unfortunately, these folks, even though they see the Light, will be left behind and will have to endure the Tribulation. We know from the Bible that the harvest of souls, those saved, during the Tribulation will be a number too great to count. In other words, the Rapture will cause many to reevaluate their lives -- and get on the path to glory with God. But, still, these new Christians will have to suffer, and many die, be martyred for their faith, in the Tribulation.

Yet, at His Second Coming -- all the world will see Him coming in glory -- and He will be coming WITH His church, the Bride of Christ. All the world will see Him during His Second Coming and they will mourn -- for they will know that it is now time to pay the piper -- to settle accounts with the Son of God.

Yes, Christians will endure the Tribulation -- but, only those who became believers AFTER the Rapture.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill you and I have threshed this out in another "Rapture" discussion and we had to agree to disagree. I fully believe you are completely wrong in your translation of the Olivet discourse and like many Pre-Tribulationist requires you to mold scripture to meet your position. It requires you to take Revelation Figuratively instead of a literal reading and make applications that just aren't there or backed up by Scripture. The Pre-Tribulation position has NO Scriptural backing unless you use selectivity construed Scripture to mean what it doesn't say.

Regarding the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 if you interpret it the way you are then you are saying that Christ, in His direct and literal answer to His Disciples, regarding an answer to their questions about the end times, failed to mention or advise them about the Rapture. In your interpretation and other Pre-Tribulationist leave Christ failing to tell of the Rapture in his answer, something He plainly doesn't do. He tells of the Rapture in Matthew 24:30 & 31 but in order to see this you have to consider that pre-tribulationist interpretation of scripture is skewed and wrong.

You wish to argue this point or disagree then where did Christ advise His Disciples of the Rapture or cover the Rapture in the Olivet discourse, a direct answer to their questions about the end times and how to recognize them?

Likewise you have to omit 1 Thessalonians 5:4 from all consideration in order to keep Christians and Saints of God in complete darkness so that the coming of Christ, the Rapture, still comes as a "thief in the night". You want to say that Christians are caught unawares of Christ return for His Saints but plainly 1 Thessalonians 5:4 says "Brothers" .. that is Christians, Bill, who are being addressed .. you ARE NOT in darkness for this day to surprise you. Why? Because Christ explained (in Matthew 24, His Olivet Discourse) exactly how the end times would play out. You however, like typical pre-tribulationist cannot accept those literal uses and understanding of scripture because then it can't be used to back a position that you have adopted as your own.

As dogmatically as I can say it, as a former pre-tribulationist advocate, Pre-Tribulation is in error and is not scriptural.

It is evident though that you nor I will budge regarding these points but if you wish to continue to follow them then we can rehash all that again and start with your explanation of where Christ covers that Rapture in the Olivet Discourse or WHY he omitted it all together, a most profound event, the "Blessed Hope" for Christians. I say he, Christ, did cover it and explain to the disciples about it and that is found in Matthew 24:30 & 31. Your failing to see it because it doesn't fit your doctrine regarding rapture timing. Explain just who in 1 Thessalonians 5:4 is saying will not be in Darkness about the coming of Christ? Who are these recipients of this letter are special that they are not in darkness as apparently everyone else is? The whole context of the passage, following immediately after 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 definitely ties it to the Rapture and not the 2nd coming as you so badly wish to apply to Matthew 24:30 & 31. I say that the writer of 1 Thessalonians just encouraged the recipients of the letter about how they will be caught up to be with Christ in the latter days and advised them that unlike the unsaved who will be caught unawares, like a thief in the night, they will have signs that will announce and precede when Christ will come back for His Church. Signs Christ foretold in Matthew 24:29 that are echoed and fulfilled in Revelation Chapter 6:12, 13 & 14.

Compare: Matthew 24:29 (NIV) 29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' with it's fulfillment in Revelation 6:12-14
Revelation 6:12-14 (NIV) 12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Many won't care either way as many don't believe or accept there is a rapture in the first place. I personally believe there is a Rapture and that it occurs in Revelation 7:4, not Revelation 4:1 which again requires some very colorful figurative reading and translation in order to make a pre-tribulation timing application.

If however you agree that it would be better to just agree to disagree I will hope you will allow us to leave it at that and we be in disagreement regarding it. Others can make up their own minds, prayerfully reading the scriptures involved and in their own studies.

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Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, not the Rapture. We know this because we are told in Matthew 24:30, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Hi GB,

Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, not the Rapture. We know this because we are told in Matthew 24:30, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

In the Rapture, Jesus Christ does not come with great fanfare -- but, like a thief in the night, when no one is expecting Him. This is why He tells us to be ready at all times.

Yet, at His Second Coming -- He most certainly is coming back in power and glory -- the Lion of Judah.

This is what Matthew 24 is describing -- His Second Coming in power and glory. There is no other way to look at it.

Sure, you can demand a Mid-Trib or Pre-Wrath Rapture -- but, it is not supported by Scripture. The only End Times scenario supported by Scripture is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture and a Pre-Millennial Return of Christ.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill