Dear God

Deep,  I fully believe you have your reasons for non-belief just as I have very valid reasons that I do Believe in God.  I hope that you are not looking for God in a physical sense, some white haired person who sets on/in clouds casting lightning bolts and other stereotypes.  I would also hope that whatever your reasons are that you remain open and flexible and remaining open to finding those answers that most all of us have.

I've known many people, just like you say you are, who never believed in God until they actually met God in a very profound and powerful way.  I also pray that if that day comes for you that it will do so while you are in this realm of existence. 

Your Signature line says a lot but also can be applied to many lines of thought and beliefs as well as non-belief.  Ignorance can also be viewed from various perspectives.  Just remember patience is defined by which side of the stall door you find yourself the same can be said of perceptions of who has ignorance.  

gb, I do remain open minded.  Just show me any evidence for god, direct evidence, and I'll reconsider.  Honestly.

I have splendid reasons for my unbelief, and they're better than your reasons for belief.  Your emotional responses to cultural or stressful stimuli do not impress me.

I will not meet God, any more than I will meet the Easter Bunny.  Nor any less, one's about the same as the other.

There is no ignorance implied by my signature line.  Ignorance is unawareness of facts.  Show me some facts that support the god hypothesis.  I'm right here, waiting.  I've heard the claims, the bleatings of the best apologists, the heartfelt emo testimonials.  I remain unimpressed on the basis of reason.

Your work is cut out for you.  Go on, give me your best shot.  I promise I'll receive it with an open mind.  After all, I was born and raised religious, and my open mind compelled me to my current opinion.  I'm capable of changing that open mind.  Let's hear it.

Srsly.

DF

DF,

Then why waste so much time on Him?

And what if it comes to be that your answers were wrong?

Then we simply die.

And all that worrying over doing the right thing, belonging to the right church, Heaven/Hell........over nothing.

If we are wrong.  If we are right, eternity awaits.

There is no 'right' church to belong to, Christ has only one church. His. It has no denomination.

As for worrying, no, don't have that problem.

According to some "Christians", there is a wrong/right church. I've had those religious nuts come at me with their best shots that I was in the wrong church, (when I was in church). Some "Christians" will swear their church is the "True Church" the Bible speaks of. You have just said there is only one church, the one of no denomination. I have news for you, there are church's of different denominations on every street corner or roadway. Are those people that attend those church's wrong to consider their church, "His" church? Who's right......you or them?

If you're really a "Christian", then you should be worrying. The Bible is full of instructions & contradictions. If you're not getting it right, then there's only one place God can send you & according to the Bible, it's hot.

Belief is like butt holes, everyone has one. And all those beliefs can't be right.

But, Chick,

WHAT if they are right?  If GB, other Christians, and I are wrong -- we still have lived a pretty good life by living the Christian faith.  We have lost nothing -- but, have gained peace of mind and happiness from following our God in which we believe.  So, if by some quirk -- the atheists are right -- we have lost nothing.  We all just die -- and cease to exist.  Still, I can say that I have had a very good life following Jesus Christ.

HOWEVER, if WE are right -- we WILL have eternal life in the presence of our holy God. 

And, the non-believers (atheists, agnostics, false religions, cultists, world religions, vanilla-flavored non-believers) -- all have condemned themselves to an eternity that no sane person would desire or want for himself/herself -- or his/her loved ones.

To me, that is a win-win bet!  I bet my eternity and the eternity of all my loved ones on the fact that I know God exists -- and that I will spend eternity with Him and with all my loved ones -- for everyone in my immediate family, and most of my extended family -- are Christian believers.  We are going to have a fantastic Family Reunion in heaven -- and our Host will be Jesus Christ.

Without Him -- what do YOU and your loved ones have to look forward to in eternity?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

GB, I've said it before and I still believe it, if atheists weren't open minded they'd be, or still be, believers.

Jen, since you are open minded, have you seen or heard any SCIENTIFIC proof that there is NO God?

Your answer has to be no because Science has no such proof.

Further: do you know of any absolute proof SCIENCE has produced that eliminates the possibility of God as the creator?

Last but not least: have you ever followed, with understanding, the mathematical models on which the BIG BANG is based? Not by a single scientist but by the few who can explain the theory, non of which are identical and do not totally agree and are argumentative in detail.

All this is not necessary for you to believe in NO God but if the above is not the case then your claim to be open minded is simply a claim.

========================================

Ah. Pascal's Wager again.

http://atheism.about.com/od/at...ll/a/AtheismRisk.htm

Question:
Why are you taking such a risk on being an atheist? If you're wrong, you'll go to hell. You've got nothing to lose by converting and everything to gain.

Answer:
This question, which is really just a simplified version of Pascal's Wager, is one of the most popular questions which religious theists — particularly Christians — pose to atheists. It must sound very appealing, reasonable, and rational to them, otherwise atheists wouldn't have to hear it so often. Unfortunately, Christians who use this reveal that they haven't done their homework because there are a number of very obvious and easy objections to this which they seem completely unaware of.

The first problem lies in the implicit yet unstated assumption that we already know which god we should believe in. That assumption, however, is not necessary to the argument, and thus the argument itself does not explain which religion a person should follow. This can be described as the “avoiding the wrong hell” dilemma. If you happen to follow the right religion, you may indeed “go to heaven and avoid hell.” However, if you choose the wrong religion, you’ll still go to hell.

Thus even if we accept the premise that we have nothing to lose and everything to gain by converting, what should we convert to? The thing missed by so many who use this argument is that you cannot “bet” on the general concept of “theism.” You have to pick specific doctrines. Theism is just a broad concept which includes all possible god-beliefs and, as such, barely exists absent specific theologies. If you are going to really believe in a god, you have to believe in something — which means picking something. If I pick, then I risk picking the wrong god and avoiding the wrong hell.

A second problem is that it isn’t actually true that the person who bets loses nothing. If a person bets on the wrong god, then the True God™ just might punish them for their foolish behavior. What’s more, the True God™ might not mind that people don’t bother believing in it when they have rational reasons — thus, not picking at all might be the safest bet. You just cannot know.

Some choices do indeed come with large risks. Many have died because they trusted in prayer rather than medicine. Others have perished due to the handling of poisonous snakes and the drinking of lethal liquids because Jesus said they would be able to do so without harm. The choice of pseudoscientific and mystical beliefs can carry very negative consequences.

A third problem is the unstated premise that the two choices presented are equally likely. It is only when two choices are equal in probability that it makes sense to go with the allegedly “safe bet.” However, if the choice of a god is revealed to be a great deal less likely than the choice of no god, then god ceases to be the “safe bet.” Or, if both are equally likely, then neither is truly a “safe bet.”

One final problem is the conclusion of the argument, where a person decides to believe in a god because it is the choice that offers the most benefits and least dangers. This requires that the god in question not mind that you believe in it merely in order to gain entrance to heaven and/or to avoid punishment in hell. Such a god wouldn't be a just or fair god, since a person’s eternal fate is not being decided upon based on their actions, but merely on their decision to make a pragmatic and selfish choice. Does this sound like a god that's worth worshipping?

Bill and none of the other "you better accept god" hucksters will explain HOW a person can choose to believe or stop believing. There are some things that are out of a person's control, things that just are the way they are with no way to change it. I tried to deny it for years, and finally accepted the fact I didn't believe anymore. There is no way I could put myself back into that mindset, no way I would make myself miserable by "living a lie" by pretending to believe.

Road,

That has a lot of false assumptions.

True, people have done stupid things in the name of religion, but people do stupid things anyway, religion or not.

A person doesn't DECIDE to believe in God. Your heart is opened by Him to see and feel Him. It's not a choice of  'the most benefits and the least dangers'.

If just deciding was all it took, then just DECIDE to believe when you are taking your last breath, problem solved. You got to live a life of debauchery and still go to Heaven. Perfect.

So the last paragraph is true, but not the way it was intended. That god would not be worth worshiping, but that's not how it works.

Proof of God:

1. Us and the universe are real only as far as we are concerned.

I’m not convinced the large rock in my garden is aware of the universe, any of it’s parts or that we as life forms move amongst and reckon about it.

2. If life forms did not exist, rocks would not be having this conversation nor any other non-life form would be having one in our stead.

3. Since the big bang is without a doubt a unique invention of ours, WE are it’s creator.

4. Any position we take as life forms that the universe exists or possibly exists without us again is an invention of our own.

5. In the case that it does exist without our existence or invention it exists by what authority?

The answer is……………………

But you said Christ has only one church & that it has no denomination. What about those people in those church's of different denominations? Are they going to Hell since they are evidently in the wrong church?

How can you believe in God if you believe the Bible is not logical? Does the two not go hand in hand?

You say you try not to break any commandments. I’m sure you do, so what happens then? It doesn’t worry you that you broke one or several?

Following your best instincts, trying not to break any commandments, & trying to be good to others doesn’t make a Christian. I know many people that follow those same rules but they are by no means a Christian. I would love to hear what you believe a Christian to be.

BTW, I respect your humble opinion. 

No, most believe because they were taught as a child that he exist & to believe. Most of those never question it. Others do question, find it lacking & choose not to believe because there is no definite proof.

Others do decide to believe in God. Their heart is opened by Him once they decide to believe that He does exist. It's what they call faith.

First of all Rramn show me which group of legitimate scientists are trying to prove or disprove a god.  When scientists reveal results of studies that don't jibe with your fairy tale that is not trying to disprove a god, that's simply presenting those results. Secondly, show me any one of my posts where I mention a "big bang".  I look at different theories, discard some, the god myth being the first to go of course, and keep up with other theories that make sense to me. You can keep thinking a god "that had always been here" made a man out of dirt but I've moved past that.

No semi, there is no 'wrong' church if you follow the teachings of Jesus. The Bible IS illogical. Religion is ILLOGICAL.  That is why it's based on faith. If I break a commandment, I ask for forgiveness. I promise i will try not to do it again. I will fail. If we were perfect, as Jenn said, just create us in Heaven.

It seems you have a more defined idea of Christian than I. So go with what you believe. I said I am not a Christian by the standards set here.

You can't prove that there isn't an invisible pink elephant looking over your shoulder as you type on your keyboard.

But, if you say that he is there, the burden of proof is yours. Nobody can prove he isn't there. You can't prove that he is.

The same logic applies to God.

"Faith" is a delusion.

I was not taught as a child to believe. I was sent to church and followed the sheep, but i did not believe. And I was taught to question EVERYTHING, that's how you learn.

Their heart is opened first, then they believe. Not the other way around.Or at least, that is how it worked for me. The people that have the 'life changing experiences', did not believe until after the experience, not before. But as I said, that is my opinion.

People without faith always say it's a delusion. They have to.  It gives them comfort. I don't have to prove anything to you jimi.  Your opinion means nothing to mean.

I have faith in a lot of things, I take comfort in a lot of things. I don't need blind faith in a god to have comfort.

Semi, if a person opens their heart, asks Jesus to come in, and then promises to always TRY to do God's will, they will be given the gift of belief. And it doesn't matter what church you attend. If you read the Bible, ask for understanding, pray, and try to always do God's will, you will be a member of JESUS' church,  whether you attend a COC church, a Catholic church, a Baptist church, or no church at all.

A good analogy would be the difference between justice and the law. We all know what is FAIR, but because our laws are so convoluted and arbitrarily put into practice, very often a horrific crime gets a light punishment while someone who hasn't done much wrong by comparison, gets a very harsh sentence. If justice prevailed instead of "the law", the bad guy would get punished while the not-so-bad guy would get the slap on the wrist.

In religious matters, if FAITH prevailed over "the church", people would not be so confused. When B said that Jesus' church had no denomination, what she meant is that it is a person's faith that makes him a member of Jesus' church, and no doubt SOME members of each denomination ARE true Christians. The rest are Baptists or Catholics or Methodists or whatever, but if they define themselves by denomination rather than as Christians, that is a good tip off that they are going down the wrong path.

Amen, Sister

A good rant, nagel.  I agree.

And if the grape juice is fermented: it's alcoholic.

No where does the Bile say not to drink, it says not to be drunken.

Don't be a glutton, don't be slothful, don't be prideful.

Don't do anything to excess. Moderation is the key.

And the Old Testament is really just the Jews Bible.

Shalom.

A good rant, nagel.  I agree.
And if the grape juice is fermented: it's alcoholic.

No where does the Bile say not to drink, it says not to be drunken.
Don't be a glutton, don't be slothful, don't be prideful.

Don't do anything to excess. Moderation is the key.

And the Old Testament is really just the Jews Bible.

Shalom.

LeChayim!

But you had to believe in something before your heart was opened. Saying the people that have a life changing experience did not believe until after the experience is like saying Moses didn't believe in God until the river divided. 

Moses already had God talking to him when he parted the Red Sea.

No I didn't believe before. It was like Jennifer said, I was going through the motions to pretend to be a good church goer, but didn't believe.

But that is me.

What do you think makes a person a Christian, Semi?

I've followed this topic from afar ( on vacation that is ) but do feel the need to respond regarding some of the post.  First of all, Deep and other non-believers, it's not my place to judge anyone of you or any other Christian.  Second it's also not my place to persuade/convince someone that God exist.  I don't believe it's any human's place to convince another human of that fact.  God does a much better job doing that than any mere human can possibly hope to do.  

Yes I said God does that ... many may state. without doubt, that God doesn't exist and I have no problem with that being a true statement.  To the unbeliever God doesn't exist for there is no evidence of God in the life of the unbeliever for them to look toward as tangible proof or existence.  To nagle, Moses, Paul, other Christian believers God has more than adequately demonstrated Himself unto them such that no doubt remains.  I cannot physically prove that I have dreams or that I Love or have various emotions but I can testify to having them as they are a part of being human.  Someone may see direct or indirect changes in the way I act or behave that might lead to an assumption that something happened, say Love etc but no physical proof is available.   Likewise God is Spirit and dwells in a Spiritual realm and does not relate to humans in the physical realm in physical ways.  The human though knows well when they are being communicated with, by God, for it's no longer a debatable thing but a miraculous one.  

I, nor any other Christian, can provide you with physical proof of God or a change in our life but there are indirect and direct changes that should be evident that something has happened.  Changes like a total change in attitude, the way a person acts, lives etc, but even that isn't sufficient physical proof.  God does reveal Himself to whom He Will and to those who honestly seek Him ... he can be found.

It is God who will do the convincing and provide the proof, not man/woman/humankind.   As for Pascal's Wager and those who know what that is, what should be taken away from that is the severity of the decision that is to be made.

Jenn,

You are correct. None of the ‘legitimate scientists’ ever mention the subject and I know most of them. ‘Results of studies’ are just that and prove nothing for sure. I agree.

You assert that my belief in God is a fairy tale. Your posts are evidence that you are not one of the significant scientists of whom you referred which disqualifies your opinion as to what is a fairy tale.

Jenn this may surprise you but all the ‘significant scientists’ do not exclude the possibility of a creator in their language totally and the absence of absolute proof of scientific theories leaves the door wide open. I think you will have to at least agree to that.

You said you considered different theories and abandoned some for others. Personally I don’t consider you qualified to abandon any scientific theory. If you were you certainly would not be making such claims. Myself included.

I think after you have a PhD in mathematics and physics you would be much less apt to make some of your claims.

I just don’t see the scientific world getting anywhere near an answer to the riddle of what are we all about.

Respectfully,

True. The decision over which gods to choose, before even deciding on whether or not to believe in such a thing.

Because he might actually be willing to enter into a conversation.  He might even give me his best efforts.  I want to see them.

I have no time for those who are certain of the nonexistent.  They are fools and incapable of using their brains.  gb is willing to engage me in the intellectual field of honor, and I look forward to it.  His talent is rare, since intellect and religion coincide with such infrequency.

DF

Nevertheless, it is not an opinion. It is rational truth. It is not an excuse to say that you don't hve to prove anything when such proof is impossible. If it isn't delusional to deny the truth, then you don't understand the term.

Pascal['s wager is not Germain to this "discussion".

Gbrk,

You are casting pearls before swine. I hate to see you do that. Deep farce only wants to belittle you and make a sport of blaspheming God. These folk are not normal. They are dangerous humanists. They are enemies of God and mankind.

They are afraid of me because I have whipped them down. They have no recourse against me because I see only the evil in them. There is no good in them and they hate you gbrk and everything good you represent.

They will devour themselves soon enough. Don’t waste your mission on this handful of evil humanists when there are so many out there that would gladly hear about Jesus.

Bill this goes for you too.

Let me handle these devils. Deep farce, Unoi, jemi, nagle’and Adot.

As for whether a person is genuine or not in their statements is for other readers to determine.  I believe that anyone who has followed this board and these topics can surmise from a sampling of post, from each contributor, what the person is about.  As for me or concern about my time and efforts, I consider, they are never wasted on those here.  While I am fully aware that there are a minority of folks here for strictly nefarious reasons I also know there possibly is one reader that never contributes but follows our discussions.  It is for those people that I spend time in attempts to explain my reason for belief and to defend my faith.  It is for those Christians who may not be so bold to directly confront those who would, like a few of our members, seek to make sport of believers because they detest them or abhor them and what they believe in.  

It is always going to be an argument, of some non-believers and atheist, that believers and Christians are delusional or just intellectually insufficient in an  attempt to explain how a rational, thinking, person could believe in God, or a God.  There is little to ever change their mind and intent however there are others who follow the forum and those are worth spending time in debate and in discussion that may otherwise not seem beneficial.  

You also always will have people who demonstrate vile hatred, toward believers, of such a nature that makes you wonder of it's source and how a person could have such feelings toward another person just because they believe differently.  I fully believe that just as spiritual forces are at work in some that demonic forces are at work in others.  I fully believe that outside of our physical realm a Spiritual realm exist where a Spiritual battle is in play, around us.  So I am fully aware that quite possibly there are other reasons some few express vile hatred toward believers, here and other places in life.  

Those readers who come to the forum and may never contribute also see the postings of these people and can also realize this.  A greater injustice would be to leave these people unopposed and allow them to tear down Christianity or Religion and people's reasons to believe.  I also fully believe that quite possibly one day one thing a believer may say might be used, by God, to actually start a spark of curiosity within a non-believer and from that give an inroad for God to reach someone He intends to minister unto.  While I realize that many may not be legitimate and true to their words it is my belief that some are.  

Some I believe are here for curiosity and because people are always seeking.  Yes a few, maybe more than a few, come to make sport of believers and have hopes of tearing down the beliefs of others through badgering and intimidation never realizing that they may just be strengthening the faith of a weker believer. Most mature believers who are stronger in the faith will have no concern for themselves for they recognize the spiritual battles that exist in the world and including the forum.  In a purely secular sense some would call it a battle of the minds and some who may come ot the forum, out of curiosity and never contribute, need to see that being a Christian isn't about setting in a pew on Sundays or Wednesdays but that there is reason to defend the faith everyday and out of Churches.  That the world consist of people who fully disbelieve in God and feel comfortable in that and that there are reasons that a Christian needs to feed on the word of God rather than just rely upon belief in Christ.  The same forces that Christ fought, in the time He chose, are at work today and the same forces and difficulties that the disciples fought are alive and well today so I don't see it as casting pearls before swine but rather standing up for those unknown numbers that may be following the forum from afar who would otherwise wonder why no one stands up for them or for believers.

Some have said why don't more pastors come and spend time on the forums?  I say many would be ill equipped to do so for they don't teach this type conflict in seminaries and for those that ask those questions I would say that I"m sure there is at least one pastor/minister that has or does spend time here.  Many pastors that I know are not ready or desire an in your face type confrontation with non-believers.  Others would count it casting their pearls before swine and feel it would take time away from their congregations and study for their own preparation.  I can't answer for them or why more pastors aren't here but just to express my own opinions on that subject.  Thanks Rramnlimnn I do appreciate the sentiments but hopefully you see it's more for the unannounced and followers that don't contribute that I spend the time I do here for I'd be the same in person as I am here and it also helps prepare for those confrontations when they do occur. 

GB, everything you say about "some atheists" can be applied to "some christians" that post here. The out and out hatred that oozes from some of them towards atheists and people that believe differently makes a person wonder how they could call themselves christians. And of course if there is someone reading that doesn't contribute, which I doubt, they see that hatred too. What conflict is so intense that a pastor, a person that thinks they're capable of preaching/teaching can't handle it? Seems that would be a weak person who is in the wrong line of business so to speak. Why would a believer even need you or anyone else to "stand up for them"?  No, I think it comes down to the fact that a belief in a god can't be rationalized so believers turn their frustration onto non-believers.  You feel you have the right to openly spread your religious beliefs, athesists feel they have the right to openly oppose it.

Deep,   It is from Christians/believers/people of faith whom you will derive physical type conversations with.  It is from us whom you will engage in debate or cerebral stimulation if you will for as I have said before:  I believe God deals with people/individuals on a much more personal and intimate way.  I fully believe God deals with a person from inside out rather than outside in and in doing so leaves no doubt as to the source of the communication.  Who, other than the Creator (God) could manipulate a person's own body in such profound/unexplainable ways?  Until it happens to the specific person the only explanation a non-believer can rationalize is that it is some delusion for there is no other scientific explanation for it.  

Yes it is from other forum members and people that you will achieve mental stimulation or debate from but it is my belief that proof, verifiable proof, can only come from God and that means it will not come through words or external stimuli but will come from inside your own mind/body/being in a way that is indis****ble and undeniable.  For that reason alone no one ever will convince you or anyone else that God exist sufficiently to warrant your change in beliefs.  To believe otherwise is to put far too much credit in one's own merits and abilities.  

I will make you this promise, Deep.  I will continue to try and answer questions and debate my positions as opportunity arises.  I will continue to try and be civil and respectful toward all people of opposing beliefs and adequately represent "people of faith" and reasons for which we maintain that faith.  I will also promise you that I have and will continue to pray for you and others on the forum in hope that God will do just what you say you want Him to.  I know there are many people here and reading the forum who never contribute but yet have needs they are looking for answers for.  You may have a post or I might or someone else that speaks to these people or that can be used to help a specific need.  I believe as we remain respectful we remain viable to our respective positions.  We also are both aware (hopefully) that there are other forum members here, participants, who do not do our respective positions their best.  I'm sure there are valid reasons for their efforts (or valid to the respective person) but are not representative of our own positions or beliefs.   Therefore do me the favor of making your judgments, regarding God, to those personal interactions with God and not with people (including myself) who represent God/Christ/Christianity.  

If you, or any other non-believer, never have/has that intimate relationship with God then you have your reinforcement for your non-belief or atheism however to use one of us, another Christian, or believer to develop theories and basis of belief about God upon is unjust to God/Christ and frankly unjust to your own selves.  You can only share with me or others about experiences you have but until we have exactly that same experience, visit that same place, etc we cannot truly appreciate the experience or act for we haven't been there or done that.  Likewise I understand the same applies to God/Christ.  Until you have personally had the encounter you cannot appreciate it nor can you trust it is anything other than a delusion or some self conceived event.  I fully can respect that.

Surely you realize I understand that to be true?  In my last post to Deep I said as much.  As for the "conflict" that I was talking about it is the in your fact conflicts that turn philosophical in nature rather than relying upon faith and remaining within a spiritual context.  Pastors are taught many things in seminary relating to the gospel and Christ but they are not adequately taught to defend their own personal faith, heck some may not have that personal faith themselves.  There are pastor/ministers who are just doing a job/speaking and not pastors or ministering at all.  They also (negatively) effect many people.  

I fully believe that God equips pastors/ministers (legitimate ones) to do their job or to Shepard the flock so to say.  To minister unto people within their Churches as God's representative and to be used by God's Holy Spirit for specific purposes.  Remember I also said some not all pastors would be ill equipped to wage debate within here.   Many pastors are great teachers but don't have the best people skills (a physical trait).  Ministers, like the people here on the forums, differ greatly and are not one is representative of the whole.   

I also know and realize that Christians can show hatred also because Christians are also the very same human people as everyone else, with the same personal human flaws, among which anger or any other emotion is one.  All I will say, regarding Christians, is if they are living "In the Holy Spirit" that the hatred/anger is not one of the fruits of the Spirit.   

While I do feel the right to openly spread my beliefs, as a Christian, I do it on the Religion forum where the context should be expected to be about religion.  I don't go to the newsgroups where I know atheist gather of like minds and try and convert them or tell them what I think about their beliefs.  That is essentially what some are doing here though.  Yes you have a right to do so but is that humane?  Is that being a good neighbor if you are deliberately going somewhere you know your beliefs are not germaine to the topic or forum with the attempt to "convert" others to your belief?  Is there not some animosity toward believers present that prompts you to strike back?  Just questioning .... not stating that is my belief. 

"HIM" referred to God, not gbrk.  I was referring to your original post. We posted at the same time.

This forum is described as being a forum for everyone to express their beliefs, or practices. It was never put forth by the TD as a forum for christians only.  As far as converting anyone I certainly have no interest in that. I don't know any atheist that cares about converting people. They do care about helping people that may be having doubts by sharing their experience. I have done that but I have never set out to change a person's mind, and no one ever approached me or said one word to me about converting to atheism when I was "in the church". 

GB, would you talk to an atheist's child about your god even if you knew it was against their parent's wishes?

Proof of God:

1. Us and the universe are real only as far as we are concerned.

I’m not convinced the large rock in my garden is aware of the universe, any of it’s parts or that we as life forms move amongst and reckon about it.

2. If life forms did not exist, rocks would not be having this conversation nor any other non-life form would be having one in our stead.

3. Since the big bang is without a doubt a unique invention of ours, WE are it’s creator.

4. Any position we take as life forms that the universe exists or possibly exists without us again is an invention of our own.

5. In the case that it does exist without our existence or invention it exists by what authority?

The answer is……………………

Jennifer,

Of course you are trying to convert people to your way of thought. As is DF, AR, Unob, etc.  Why else post?  The same for Bill, Inv, gbrk, and all other religious people. We post because we know that WE are the only right ones. LOL

It's the reason that 'stupid people doing stupid things in the name of religion' is posted. It's the reason that unob and DF love to post videos showing religion in a bad way. it's the reason Bill posts his long sermons, or inv puts up religious sitings.

DF gets the prize for the most tenacious. He never misses a chance to bring in 'ignorant, delusional, or 'retarded' into his posts. If he wasn't try to convert, why attack the religious?

But, he rationalizes it by saying he is saving us from our childish beliefs.

Always loved the word rationalize.  Covers anything you want it too..

Semi,   

If I could impart unto you that which has been sufficient for me I would.  Each (individual) person must come to a determination themselves as to reconcile the questions, who am I, what am I here for, is there a God, how did I, we, all of this get here?  Most important is there something on the other side of physical death.  Regardless of whether a person is Christian, Saved, believer or non-believer they can't tell you that with total assurance for it is not within their ability to do so.  Non-believers, some of them, say 100% there is nothing past physical death, no God etc, while believers, like myself, will tell you that there is and exist a realm apart from the physical (a spiritual) which our inner spirit/souls will enter after physical death of the body.  As for the state of the afterlife the only definite thing we have to point to is the Bible and it's text and many don't accept that as legit or valid.  

For non-believers to say, dogmatically, there is no God or no afterlife it is a statement of the most sincere hope and desire.  For Christians and believers to say there is an afterlife and is a God is in part a statement on faith (regarding the afterlife) and on other tangible reasons as to the validity of God.  No one though, believers or non-believers, can attest with all certainty that which exist (or doesn't) after physical death.  YOU, as well as everyone else, must find those answers themselves and sufficient for themselves.  In those answers hopefully you, and others will find comfort and satisfaction.  

Like I've told many others though answers, with respect to God, should not be looked for in another human whether me or any other believer for we are the same as you and we are flawed ourselves.  God is sufficient to reveal Himself unto those who legitimately and honestly seek Him and I, honestly, believe He will and does do just that unto those who honestly seek Him.  Additionally I encourage others not to seek God in any physical attributes whether those be living or just existing in the world around us.  I do believe, for those that look to God, that He can be seen in the beauty of creation I do not believe that alone is sufficient enough to convince the most skeptic and non-believers.  I think that for many, maybe for all of us, it is the intimate relationship with God's Holy Spirit that gives us the reason to believe and is sufficient for our Faith in Him.  The physical realm and world brings us pains, suffering, illness, and other emotional feelings such as happiness, awe, etc but also reveals the sting of death as well.  There are many things that seemingly lead us to wonder about God's existence or God's Will and many times we seek to try and relate to God in physical terms and from human perspectives (that's all we can do naturally). 

In order to experience God, I believe, that has to be on a supernatural level from inside the human's mind/soul/body and in a way that the person has all doubt dispelled.  No human can do that for another person.  We can be very convincing (pro or con) regarding that which we believe but most things in life are taken on faith, some reasonable others not so.  I say, it's my belief, that the relationship with God must be an internal one because otherwise it's always going to be suspect of the environment or something going on at the time.  Each human must answer the questions, listed above, along with many more but I hope those answers will be revealed unto each person rather than coming from their acceptance of what another person says or does.  So a person's answers are only as valid as the basis of that which leads to their conclusion.  Some things have to be taken on faith but not blind faith but faith for a reason.

Semi, that's all anyone can do. I know how I feel now as opposed to when I was living the lie. I can't tell anyone else that they will feel better if they come to the conclusion that they don't believe. The people that don't like me on the forum always resort to calling me unhappy, bitter, angry. The only time I can say I was truly unhappy (besides losing my parents of course)  was when I was living that lie. As for angry and bitter, IF I had kept up that pretense I think it would have eventually done that to me.

You judge all Christians by Bill.  You never gave me an answer Semi.  What to you is a Christian?

Depends much on the context and/or the child's age.  IF a child came and ask of me why I believe as I do then I would have no problem explaining why I believe as I do and that naturally would entail talking about God.  If, as your assertion seems to indicate, would I sneak in and try and talk to any child, atheist child or not, about religion, behind their parents back against their parents will then I would say absolutely not, nor would I approve of doing so but again there are 20 year old kids whose parents would not approve of a Christian talking to their children and that's a different issue.

I believe God initiates curiosity within an non-believing person and that person is usually not a child but someone old enough that can know right from wrong or good from bad or has the ability to make decisions without their parents having to make them for them.  If I was in a Church that had a program for children, such as VBS or the like, then Atheist parents should know beforehand that Christ/God would be talked about and taught.  If it is a Christian school the same applies.  In order to answer your question the information would need to be far more specific and less general. If an Atheist Child is old enough to make the decision to have an abortion or make the decision about having sex are they not old enough, in your mind, to be counseled about God, if they ask?  

I am not in favor though, nor would I personally, attempt to influence children behind a parents back at such an age that they cannot make their own decisions but that age also varies greatly in different people and children so I cannot put an age on it but I, personally, would have to consider what age a child was if they were old enough to come seeking to know information from me of that nature and I would wonder from where the curiosity came from or why it was there. 

OK, to be more specific let's say school children, grades 1-6. Anyone old enough to choose an abortion, atheist or christian, would be, hopefully, plenty old enough to decide if they want to hear it or not,

We, well I, am not trying to say or indicate that they are trying to "convert" any specific person but it's ludicrous to say they are not here to try and put doubts into people's minds about Christianity or religion or belief in some deity or higher power.  It is an open forum and people are free to discuss religion of all beliefs but on one hand atheist want to deny that atheism is a religion but then want to say it is when it is beneficial to do so or justifies their means.  

Jennifer there may not be an overt attempt to "covert" people and forgive me if you sense I am saying your angry for I'm not.  I do feel that in the past some Christians have caused you pain or discomfort in teaching a different kind of Christianity than what I believe the Bible teaches.  I do wonder at times if there is some resentment toward people of faith because of some wrong you feel was done to you but granted that is a perception and could be wrong, on my part.   

As for the others on the forum we can only go from the historic post that have been made and what they contain for us to judge how one feels about others or judges others.  There are judgments made on behalf of all people whether believers or not, about the "other side".  There are people who stereotype Christians as there are Christians who stereotype atheist but that's a part of being human, for one thing, and a part of using the examples of the subset of people that claim allegiance to that belief structure, on the other.    In other words some atheist feeling justified in classifying all Christians by the actions of a few whereas many Christians feel justified in their assessment of atheist by the actions of a few who claim to be atheist or non-believers.  Both happens and at times they are right and at times they are wrong.

GB, you would be wrong. One reason my personal "conversion" was so hard was because I loved all the people at my church and felt like I was letting them down. They were wonderful about it though, and since we moved away I don't get to see them nearly as much as I'd like. When we had the tornado our phones wouldn't work for a few days. When I got service back my voice mail was full from their calls trying to check on us. Some said they had been ready to drive up here to check on us but they had our area blocked off, if you didn't live here you didn't get in. The majority of friends we have are church going folks, good people, and great to be around. I wouldn't spend two minutes around some of the ones that post here.

Well what do you expect when you pizz on anyone on these forums who doesn't jump through your hoop?  Just the same as some of these Christians do that you "hate on", then act the same way.

Betcha if you beeched on your "good, christian folks", and told them THEY were retarded the way you imply to the "ones that post here" they wouldn't stay around long either.

Chithead, show ONE post where I called anyone retarded or suggested that they were retarded. Do you just run around ****ing with so many people that you forget who posted what? If you bother to go back and look you will see where I posted many times to bill that intelligence has nothing to do with who believes or does not believe. I said I have seen many highly intelligent people that believed, many highly intelligent people that didn't believe. Intelligence has nothing to do with it. My friends don't tell me I'm going to hell for not believing, and they don't try to shove their beliefs down my throat OR tell me I should be teaching it to my kids. IF you don't like what I post, don't read it. See how simple that is? Now, that said, don't take anything I post to mean I give a crap what you or the others I referred to think-because I don't.

Jennifer,  I'm not perfect nor do I get everything right so I'm subject to reading things, about people, the wrong way so forgive me for that if that was the case but the impression I got was that someone or something within the Church was a catalyst for starting a questioning process within your own mind.  I'm neither your nor anyone else's judge so it matters not what I nor another Christian thinks about your personal decision for that is very intimate and personal with you alone.  

As for the very good friends and caring people you associated with I would but say there is something that makes those people so loving, kind, and lovable and (just suggesting) I believe one thing that does that in humans is the presence of God's Holy Spirit allowing people to be non-judgmental and loving people.  I'm not saying that all Christians are non-judgmental nor are all Christians lovable and certainly don't always act lovable.  Many cut people off and are very irresponsible drivers right after church not setting a good, love your brother, attitude.  Still my point is some people demonstrate more than others the Love of God, the CHANGING LOVE of God, a God that does exist.  

I understand that you have valid reasons you have decided that God doesn't exist but I just challenge you to separate you from this forum, the forum members, Church people, and in your alone time sometimes at least remain open to allowing God (if God exist) to communicate with you.  I assure you that if God exist (and I do believe fully He does) that He knows, or has the capacity to know, your thoughts, your feelings, your concerns and needs just as He has the capacity and ability to meet all of them sufficient enough to change your mind again.  

You claim you believed once that you were saved or were communicating with God and it is not mine to judge that statement as valid or not for I will take you at your word.  I would though make the same request of you as I did of Deep as I would any respectful forum member, that you remain open, in an honest non-biased way, and see if one day, one time, one moment in Life God has something specifically for you.  Any true, caring, Christian in the forum would want nothing more or less and the best any Christian can do, other than be a willing vessel to allow God to work though them, is to pray for God to show Himself in a very demonstrative and real way to those seeking Him.

Regarding your other question, about sharing my faith with a child (of an atheist parent who would object) 1-10 yrs of age who ask of me:  Please don't be offended at my answer but NO I most likely would not and here are the reasons.  One a child that young is still under their parents total control and should be.  Granted there are some age 10 that are very mature and intelligent but as a Christian knowing that the Child was of Atheist parents, depending on the way they ask, I would assume some kind of trap or set up and therefore be very reluctant about what I said and how.  Sorry but that's just being honest.   If though that child was old enough to be in class and taught one thing and ask in curiosity knowing that I was a believer or Christian or (apart from religion) knew I objected to Evolution and ask of me why I objected to it then I would not be as reluctant to explain my thoughts on Evolution or why I believed in God.  

What I would not do is try and convert a child by forcing them to believe by persuasive speech or fears.  What I mean by that is this.  I fully believe God's Holy Spirit does the ministering unto those whom God seeks out and from within He (God) prompts a spiritual desire or curiosity.  My interaction with a child, if they ask, would be ONLY to explain why I believe in what I do and NOT why they should believe the way I do.  If a child around age 10 was to ask a question or line of questions like that would be to attempt to best assess the motivation for the question.  Was it of them or were they enticed to ask or question me and why?  Anyone that attempted to force a child to believe out of fear and intimidation well that would be crossing the line and I wouldn't want that as a parent myself.   Any conversation like that, if it did happen should not inject any fears of judgment, spiritual forces or the like but, for me alone, would be very general.  I would not though be reluctant to share why I believe in God and why I trust and have faith in God.  Additionally, depending on the circumstances, I would wonder why the child would not ask their own parents or not want them to know.  Could be they would know what reaction would follow and I would hope that would not be the case for any parent should want their child inquisitive and wanting them to learn and ask questions.  Does that answer your question sufficiently?

b, this is an interesting point.  You could be right, perhaps people don't decide to believe.  They are indoctrinated on a cultural level that a certain perspective on reality is simply understood.  The most accurate predictor of a random person's religion remains geography, after all.  There are sincere Hindus who can tell you 1000 reasons why Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are wrong, and with every bit as much validity as the opposite arguments.

But I'm telling you that there are those among us who cannot believe.  Our minds are such that we require good evidence in order to arrive at valid conclusions.  Reflect on that.  It's pretty simple.  No faith is involved, few doubts, good reasons to accept such truths as we do are in hand.

The human condition is usually harsh.  When the harshness becomes overwhelming, some of us turn to faith.  It's easy.  Just abandon reality and pile your troubles onto Jesus.  Or Allah.  Or the Juju of the Volcano.  No evidence is required.  It's easy.

Easy.

So easy a person can choose to believe in god.  It doesn't always happen like that, but it often does.  After all, what choice does a person steeped in Alabama mythology have?  Jainism?  *** is that?

When an honest person steps back and surveys the situation from the most objective position possible, one sees that the gods get in the way of human redemption and fulfillment.  It's time we did away with them, and recognized that the gods are cruel creatures of our own invention.  They have to be cruel to tolerate the human condition.  And as cruel inventions, they are unworthy of worship or belief.

Let's move forward.

DF

DF,

I move forward every day and I don't have to ask God's permission to do so.

Since you have mapped out all the religious and non-religious places of the world, where should you live?

Trying to turn religion into a crutch again doesn't wash with me. You don't want to have faith, that's fine by me.  What I don't get is why you hate that I do.

To accuse the Bill Grays of the world of bashing religion on you then to turn around and call all religious people weak minded and in need of a crutch is the same thing.

The atheist's tolerance of religion is zero.  Want to work on that?

Granted that one would be ill conceived to say that geography does not influence a persons exposures or place certain restrictions upon their choices or information however that was more in the past than the present.  What with the internet and mass media proliferation add to that potential exposure to media selections such as "The Science Channel", "The Learning Channel", "National Geographic" "History" and "History International" as well as others and with DISH or Direct TV filtered in a person's geographic location is not as limiting so the validity of that excuse diminishes.  I will also concede that often family has even more influence or at least does have influencing factors in what a person is predisposed to accept as a valid option.

That said, I would disagree (I'm sure you are surprised) that gods are cruel inventions of the human mind, at least in some cases, but rather when you find that a god or God is looked upon as cruel or overbearing then it is usually brought about by some preconceived reason rather than God's own nature or from God's perceived attributes and usually that preconceived reason is control. 

As for Jehovah God (Father God) or the God Christians Call God referring to the nature of God (Father/Son/Holy Spirit) I believe the Bible describes a benevolent, patient, Loving God.  Granted there are stories where God's wrath has been demonstrated against humanity or a nation however usually there is a reason provided and many times that wrath is against His chosen people/nation for their discretions against Him and their failures, actions and disbelief.  Other times God's wrath was imposed against general humanity but when that was done there was a way of escape provided beforehand for people to choose and through scripture, as for the Judeo-Christian God the reasons for that wrath and judgment was revealed. 

With Lot and Sodom, Lot pleaded for God's grace to stop impending judgment/wrath upon the cities for the sake of the "godly" people within.  God provided the way of escape to those who God said were "godly"  yet Lot and his family was the only ones that were found to be deserving and yet one of them (Lot's wife) succumbed to God's wrath for disobedience.  With Noah, God provided the ark for escape and anyone that was to accept God's proclamation of impending destruction as told through Noah would find delivering from that wrath.  With Egypt and the tenth plague of death of the firstborn God provided a reprieve from that death through faith in the blood of a chosen lamb pasted above the door post of the home a foreshadowing of atonement by a Blood Sacrifice. (as a disclaimer I do realize that many do not accept the above instances as factual or that any of them occurred and that shall remain a matter of debate however they are a part of the stories proclaimed within the scriptures and therefore I use them as an example for my assertion that the Judeo-Christian God is a benevolent, caring, patient, and Loving God.  Many might see only the wrath and destruction but I believe the important thing to focus on is the provision of escape was there.)

Looking forward while looking backward (in time) God's ultimate prophesied wrath and impending Judgment upon sin and mankind also has a provision of escape offered and not only to God's chosen people and Nation (the Jews) but to every tribe and people, every person and group of people (Gentiles/non-Jews also)  through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.  It is through Christ sacrifice, on the cross, His blood, that provides the "perfect" atoning sacrifice to prevent and avoid future judgment against sin at the ultimate Judgment that mankind will face. 

Have certain people, religious people, Christians, etc been unjust in the past?  Of course they have and today many try and define God on the basis and acts of humans who claim His name.  I believe that God has been more than patient and just with humanity in providing an escape and out from ultimate Judgment but it's not as much an escape of Judgment but a promise of eternal (spiritual, totally fulfilled) life of a nature that I truly believe mankind cannot conceive of or comprehend.  As for our fleshly toll in our physical body in the physical realm the gift of God's Holy Spirit provides a living and miraculous fulfillment to life and a way to cope with and handle the seemingly impossible things that life brings to us in our humanity, including death of friends, loved ones, and handling our own future definite mortality. 

I propose that knowing and the revelation of God, through His Holy Spirit, is ultimate fulfillment of the human condition, mind, and soul. It is a miraculous transformation of a person, inside out, for that specific person who finally meets God and to whom God revels Himself unto.  

I agree that we can move forward with and to other topics but I do believe that from within each and every topic we generate topics that morph many other discussions and debates worthy of potentially their own topic/subject but not in the way that some of us have chosen to do it.  At times I might agree but not across the board is it beneficial to the readers and participants of the forum so at times it's fun to see where each ends up.

Okay Jennifer I'll bite on that one.  I'm sorry I allowed so much time to elapse before I responded to this statement so I'll respond now.  We could debate, or argue, the definition of hatred, I suppose, all day but I believe I know what you mean by that statement.  I would be curious though to know what context of what post, from a fellow Christian, you believe is evidence of this hatred that overflows from the person who claims to be a Christian?  I do try and make it a point to read most post under the topics that I am interested in or feel I can contribute to but I can't recall any demonstration, from a fellow, professing Christian, that seems it could qualify as hatred toward any other specific person. 

While I have observed post I would consider judgmental, in their tone or nature, I cannot recall any that seemed to ooze with or reveal a hatred toward another forum member so I"m more than willing to recant, provided with the evidence, that such did not happen.  I'm not saying that Christians are beyond that action nor am I willing to concede that a person that has actually demonstrated such hatred is factually a Christian.  Mine is not to make that judgment and provided with said evidence I might have legitimate concerns about the legitimacy of their claim but I would keep those to myself and denounce the conduct, from a fellow Christian, as I saw it if it indeed appeared to ooze actual hatred for hatred is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit and not something I believe a saved Saint of God would be continually demonstrating.  I also don't want to confuse being judgmental or arrogance for hatred for they are not the same either. 

Could be I am also misreading some of the atheist I believe are acting with wrong motivations but there have been times that I could surely, if needed, provide where there was an admission that post were being made for nefarious reasons such as disruption or personal attacks upon those who believe in God.  Specific statements about specific people, members of the forum, who express their faith in God or Religion.    So while I am not dismissing your statement as false I, as a fellow Christian participant, would be interested in some examples you believe or interpret as hate toward other forum members.

Regarding some of my own accusations, regarding the forum atheist or non-believers here I will cite  but one example below.

One of the atheist or non-believers (Jimi) has openly stated that he responds to post that he doesn't read as he already knows what the content is and it isn't worthwhile of his time to read it yet he is very critical and at times offensive in his replies to these post he hasn't read in the first place. In case I have misquoted him or placed it out of context here is the post I am specifically mentioning.

Under the topic, in the religion forum:   "Skippy, Here's the reason why"

JimiHendrix posted the following two post.

June 18, 2011 at 1:23 PM
Oh, I'm sorry. You thought I read your whole post. I no longer take the time to read long rants from known nitwits. I know that there is going to be no useful information, so I just scan or ignore.

 

and also same day different time

 

June 18, 2011 at 8:05 PM
I automatically assume that religious rants are going to be baseless. An intelligent discussion with an irrational person is pointless. That is why I don't discuss; I only criticize. And, I don't care what you think about it.

 

 With the above i suppose you can surmise Jimi's sole reason for being here and commenting.  It also explains many of his responses content and tone. It reveals a bias that borders on obsession, an obsession with the ridicule of something he doesn't care to know or debate but just exist to heckle and be a distraction to the forum or to those, of the forum, who call themselves believers or Christians.  It is also, most likely, the reason that the same was banned under another screen name and had to reinvent themselves but old habits seem hard to break, or so it seems.  These are open forums and everyone has a right to contribute.  The question is given the statements above is he, and others that feel the same, really here to contribute and debate?

While yes there may be some Christians that do the same I have never read or seen them put it in print that they are doing such for their own amusement or sport.  There are others who are just as obvious in their reason for being here and it's a waste of talent and I would hope not a reflection of their character but one often wonders at times.

I would be happy to debate IF there was anything to debate about. There isn't. The reason I assume that religious rants are going to be baseless is because I have never encountered one that wasn't. If you present a reasonable rant, I will be happy to read it; however, I won't hold my breath. Contributing to a non-existent debate is not possible. I am here because it is sometimes entertaining for me. That is the only reason. When it becomes boring, as it is very close to being this week, I disappear for a while, until someone posts something really stupid.

No, I don't judge all Christians by Bill Gray, though I've met more like him, then unlike him. But I don't believe Bill, or any of the people like him, is truly a Christian. People like him cause others to stumble more than lifting them up.

I’ve been asked this same question before by Bill  but the only reason he asked was so he could put me down & belittle me for my answer.

I believe a Christian is one who professes belief in Jesus as Christ, truly follows His teachings & lives humbly before Him. I know many people that say they believe in Jesus, & call themselves a Christian but they go no further than that.

James 1:26  says that “If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless”.

"I would be happy to debate IF there was anything to debate about. There isn't. The reason I assume that religious rants are going to be baseless is because I have never encountered one that wasn't. If you present a reasonable rant, I will be happy to read it; however, I won't hold my breath. Contributing to a non-existent debate is not possible. I am here because it is sometimes entertaining for me. That is the only reason. When it becomes boring, as it is very close to being this week, I disappear for a while, until someone posts something really stupid."

If jimi "disappears"...about 50% of the  "stupid" posts...will "disappear"!

It was your own admission as cited in the above copies of two of your replies.  IF what you say above is now correct then why post any reply at all within the Forum unless your intent is as I proposed it was?  What's in question is, if you are being a considerate forum member, then why post at all to post you either haven't read or have no intent of reading making disparaging comments toward specific people or participants in the forum?  There are many substantive debates going on each day yet your only contribution seems inline with that of a heckler to a comic.  

It's your chance to defend your intent and clear things up cite for us examples of your honest participation in the religion forum topic where you seek to contribute meaningful information as opposed to mere name calling or snide remarks about believers intelligence disparaging remarks of a personal nature?   You made the statements quoted above so now you may redeem yourself in the minds of your fellow forum neighbors (atheist/non-believers and believers) if you have been wrongly accused.

You make many bold and dogmatic statements on these forums but here to date the only thing that comes to mind is an analogy using an old commercial that most likely aired on network TV before you were a thought in your parents mind.   The commercial was a Wendy's Commercial involving an elderly woman named Clara Peller who made one simple statement to reflect her opinion.

Where's the BEEF?

if the above doesn't work then here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aISkVvi5iI8

Jimi,

In case you missed it or didn't read it the "BEEF" in the commercial is analogous to evidential quotes of yours from the past demonstrating that you indeed participate in the Religion forum in honest and genuine debate rather than just name calling and seeking only to disparage other Forum members who believe differently than you, specifically Christians.

So Jimi,  Where's the Beef (of your statements/post/responses) so to say?

Surely you don't want to be bested by some, lets see if I can remember just some (a sampling) of your references to me or other Christians, idiots, nitwits, stupid and/or delusional people, that wouldn't fair well for your cause or your forum standing would it?  After all if one was to take your statements for fact one would surely realize that these "slow coaches", delusional people, shy of a full deck members would come no where near competing with you in the arena of ideas and philosophical arguments/discussions.  

Shall we all yield to your superior intellect at this point in time?  

wait!

Oh that's right we're still waiting on "the beef" before rendering that decision.

GB, I wasn't clear I guess. I didn't mean if a child asks you, but even if they did it's still up to the parents to say if they want it discussed with the child or not. My point is many christians do approach children and start a discussion, and some even hand them little pamplets and other religious material, without consent, with the parent standing there.

I don't think there's anything I could say that would satisfy you. I've been preached to & ridiculed by some of the best that wear the hat. I suggest you read the Bible & see what His teachings are & what He considers "living humbly". None exist in the world today.

A person doesn't DECIDE to believe in God. Your heart is opened by Him to see and feel Him.

If it's not my choice, then why do the religious constantly beseech me and demand me to believe?  I'm with you on this one, it's not a choice.

Having seen plenty of evidence for both sides, there is only one honest conclusion I can make.

DF

I wasn't asking to 'be satisfied', just what your thoughts were. So if none exist in the world, then I guess we all go to hell. At least that makes all the atheists happy.

Then that honest conclusion is for you to make, not for every one else to accept. As I have said a million times, I believe in God, don't care if you do or not, the Bible is there for you to read or not, and I would prefer not be considered less intelligent because I do.

I think you were clear enough but there are/were so many variables in the equation that it was difficult to give a yes/no answer.  I am not one that would approach a child or initiate contact with a child regarding Christianity.  I don't rule out that God may and can initiate an inner interest or curiosity about faith or other issues.  As for myself, speaking only for myself I would not initiate contact, as an individual, with a child whether that contact by pamphlets or speaking.  If ask by a child then one would need to assess the reason for the question and react accordingly.  

Realize also though that many Christians  feel that atheist have done essentially the same thing on a much grander scale.  It was commonplace in many places of the US for High Schools to teach about the Bible without it being considered a breech of the amendment regarding separation of Church and State.  It was in the 1960's that Bible and prayer started becoming taboo in large part due to court cases brought about on the part of atheist.

Frankly, as far as that is concerned, at times it appears that many atheist are not looking for common dialog or a dialog at all.  From appearances it seems as if many atheist will not be satisfied until the world is rid of all religious people and most prominent in their cross hairs are Christians.  I hate to put it that way and I'm not saying you fit that mold but I can assure you that there are many atheist that do and would not rest until all traces of Christianity is removed from Earth.  That is the impression that many atheist leave with many Christians so both can be considered intrusive as well for the impression that many atheist leave is they are not happy as long as any Christians are there.  In that respect I believe there are far more atheist who believe that way than there are Christians who feel likewise about atheist.

I won't deny there are atheists that would like to rid the world completely of religion. I'm not one of those, haven't met one of those. I do understand their reasoning and believe they have a point. Religion is one of the biggest reasons for all the unrest in the world. Take that away and you wouldn't have nearly as much to fight about.  We can go around and around about that. Religion in school? I oppose it. It's a parent's decision to teach that to their child in the home if they want them to know, and I wouldn't want them to lose that right.  What dialog would you like? When you try to "dialog" where does it go? Things have definately changed, responsible parents no longer sit back and let others tell them how to raise their child.

That is not wholly unfair.

Atheists, by calling BS on idiotic ideas (such as invisible supermen who live in the sky, a world created 6000 years ago, floating boats big enough for all life on earth, men created from a lump of coal and women created as subservient to man because she talked to a snake), are the most despised group of people in the US.

We are distrusted.  We cannot speak up without receiving death threats or threats of violence. We are constantly vilified by the far right and the media.  We are constantly and consistently judged to be less moral that those who believe in invisible men in the sky.

And you dare wonder why we seem just a little miffed?  

I personally will not be satisfied until ALL people of ALL beliefs are treated equally under the law and by society.   I won't be satisfied until all forms of the fundamentalism that enslaves young minds (and old ones like yours) is  banished from the earth.  I won't be satisfied until there are no more headlines proclaiming the death of someone because of religious beliefs (or lack thereof).  

Mankind has outgrown the gods he created.  We need to progress and advance.  Religion is the ball and chain that prevents that from occurring.   

Are you serious? You think by removing bible study and prayer from public schools, where ALL children, who come from different religious and non-religious homes go to learn academics is an example of atheist trying to rid the world of Christians?

There is no way that there are more atheist that want to force their beliefs onto Christians in the same manner we have been forced to endure the Christian doctrine. It is impossible. As of today we are still sorely out numbered. Of the atheist that I know there is not one that would take away your right to worship and believe. Not one that would be in favor of having a time set aside each day in public school to tell the children about atheism. How many Christians do you know that would love to have prayer back in school and some form of Christianity\religion discussed with the children each day? From the ones I have met, that claim to be Christian, that number would be extremely high.

I am sick to death of the false persecution put forth by Christians. Just because atheist would like for Christians to keep their religion in their personal life and not in our schools and politics is not the same thing as wanting to rip it from their bible thumping hands.

As for atheism being opposed to Christianity more than other religions, well that is more hyperbole. Seeing as how this country is made up of more Christians than any other religion it would make sense that atheism would seem to oppose that certain religion the most. However, the truth is that as an atheist I don't believe in or support ANY religion where a supernatural God is worshiped. This is my country too. If you want to believe in a God, believe....I really, truly, honestly don't care. Just please stop fouling up our school system, science, and politics with your religious beliefs. Then we can all get along just fine.

There's non-Atheist people that would like to do that.

Have you ever noticed that Atheist & non-Christians are always accused of being the way we are because we don't want to give up what the Christians call the "fun/party life? I'm just your standard human being that doesn't party, don't drink (except for an occasional Bloody Mary), don't mistreat others, etc., but I'm accused of not becoming a Christian because I don't want to give up "the fun", whatever that is supposed to be. My fun is snuggling with my husband watching a good movie on TV.   I gave up the Christian life because I was unhappy in it & wasn't doing it right, according to the "Christians".

Same here semi. We work hard, sometimes we work late, and what we do for fun would bore most people to death. That includes the christians. We went wild for Father's Day. Out to brunch and to the movies. Green Lantern is very good btw. I didn't expect it to be. We ride our bikes as often as we can, eat out every other week with our friends, things like that.  We don't drink more than a couple of drinks a year-maybe, and I've only seen one person in our group have a glass of wine in all the years we've been going out to eat, and just that one time. Guess she didn't like it. It's what I said earlier, trying to lay a guilt trip on us because we won't fall into line.

I fully believe God deals with a person from inside out rather than outside in and in doing so leaves no doubt as to the source of the communication.  Isn't that convenient?  By that definition, only you have the means to acknowledge the truth.  But let's just say that I grant you your conviction.  It still does absolutely nothing to convince anyone else of the truth of god, and most certainly does not give one the right to create and maintain a theocracy such as Alabama has become.

The truth of your inner god is far from indisput-able. (funny censors we have here... in Spanish, for the love of pete... oy, vey)  Indeed, billions of Muslims, Buddhists, Scientologists, Mormons, atheists, and for all we know, whales dispute it every day.  The geographic propensities of religion are one reason why the gods are most necessarily man-made.

At work, more later. 

DF

They don't believe in Hell, but why do you think that would make them happy? I've never seen an Atheist that would be that cruel.

God may have been talking to Moses beforehand but did Moses believe before or after he stretched his hand out over the sea that it would part?

When Jesus told the paralytic man to walk, did he believe before or after he stood up & walked?

When the blind man walked to the pool to wash his eyes, did he believe before or after?

When a person asked Jesus to save him/her, do they believe before or after?

When Jesus asked the 10 Lepers to go show themselves to the priest, and as they went they were cleansed, did they believe before they went on their way or after? They had to have some amount of belief to even ask Him for mercy.

I'm sure you would not have been a **** or a follower of Hitler however it could be said, by some, that he had a point also in his efforts at genocide but regardless of whoever would be crazy enough to think genocide of a race of people would be tolerable is dangerous and just as guilty as those who participated in it.  Your statement that you understand their reasoning and believe they have a point is a disqualification of what you said earlier.  You either agree with it or you totally reject it for when it comes to something as drastic as that there is no gray area.  

I'll concede that much has been done in the name of religion, by various people the wrongs that were done were in no way justified and I don't understand them.  I don't understand how the KKK could condone racial hatred and bigotry in the name of Christianity and carry the cross yet hate any other human or person for their external skin color or nationality.  IT"S WRONG and I cannot see where they are coming from nor do I agree with it or feel they have a point.  I think, no I hope, you mis-spoke and will rethink that statement and be honest about it otherwise how can you say you are not one of them if you do really feel they have a point.

That's just my opinion, as a Christian, reading what you posted.

So GB, you think atheists are like Hitler? Nuff said. You can sit in the corner with prince and his "children of the prince of darkness" crap.

Okay Uno, the only thing I have to go on, with respect to Christian/Atheist ... Atheist/Christian confrontation is what I see on this board for I don't go into the Atheist newsgroups on USENET but I have heard of some who have gone in and preached or voiced their "Unwelcome and unwanted" opinions and were chastised for it by the members of that group for doing so.  They were doing no less than the Atheist in this forum are doing.

Since all I have to go on is this forum I'd challenge you to cite just which Christians have threatened you due to your opinions?  What century or decade are you referring to and what geographic location?  I do belief the over abundance of evidence, from the post on the Religion forum, will bear out that it is the Christians who overwhelmingly have been attacked, ridiculed and demeaned account of their belief and not the reverse. 

Additionally many atheist actually misjudge their personal attacks upon Christians for a true Christian relishes being persecuted in Christ name and having the ability to suffer or endure hardship or criticism in Christ name for there is no doubt that Christ endured the same and more so it's not something that's negative but the tune never seems to change.  For the mature Christians, on the forum, the criticisms and insults are badges of honor but it's the new Christians or those who are not so mature in their faith that at times suffer account of the barrage of insults and criticisms and that's not fair when they may be coming to the forum, a Religion forum, to ask questions of religious people about their new found faith.  For you or any other atheist to influence them is shameful upon your own self.  You call BS on that which you perceive, your opinion, for you have no definite proof against God as no one can provide you with definite physical proof of God's existence.  To state otherwise is pure arrogance.  

There's non-Atheist people that would like to do that. 

Have you ever noticed that Atheist & non-Christians are always accused of being the way we are because we don't want to give up what the Christians call the "fun/party life? I'm just your standard human being that doesn't party, don't drink (except for an occasional Bloody Mary), don't mistreat others, etc., but I'm accused of not becoming a Christian because I don't want to give up "the fun", whatever that is supposed to be. My fun is snuggling with my husband watching a good movie on TV.   I gave up the Christian life because I was unhappy in it & wasn't doing it right, according to the "Christians".

It seems apparent that some very legalistic Christians  have crossed paths with you in the past.  For what it's worth I fully believe they are wrong and acting against the cause of Christ.  Careful analysis of Christ interaction with those seeking salvation will show and demonstrate that He never laid down laws that they have to follow to be saved.  You aren't saved by your acts and what you do in the flesh or in your body whether pleasurable or not.  You almost make it sound like to be a Christian means you have to subject yourself to victorian era rigid conduct requirements.  That's more a denominational doctrine and not what Christ said or not what God said, in the scriptures. 

There are definitely Christians who are over judgmental and try to force people to live according to a rigid set of laws or rules they derive from the Law's as given in Exodus.  Christ died on the cross and provided Salvation by Grace and not by works and a person can never be good enough to merit salvation and that's what it appears you have been told or led to believe you over judgmental Christians at one point in your life.  Sure I could be wrong but from your statements it appear that way and I just wanted to say if that is the case it's plainly wrong! 

It will be interesting to see this reply.

Jennifer it was you who posted this in a previous post: 

 

I won't deny there are atheists that would like to rid the world completely of religion. I'm not one of those, haven't met one of those. I do understand their reasoning and believe they have a point.Religion is one of the biggest reasons for all the unrest in the world. Take that away and you wouldn't have nearly as much to fight about.  We can go around and around about that. Religion in school? I oppose it. It's a parent's decision to teach that to their child in the home if they want them to know, and I wouldn't want them to lose that right.  What dialog would you like? When you try to "dialog" where does it go? Things have definately changed, responsible parents no longer sit back and let others tell them how to raise their child.

You stated that you do understand the reasoning of "those".  May I remind you "those" are the atheist I was referring to as not being happy unless all Christians ceased to exist and were no longer were in the world.  My application using Hitler was to compare the two frame of minds and policies.  IN one instance (Hitler) he felt that he was justified by elimination of the Jewish nation/race in order to achieve his "MASTER" race or Arians.  

You seem offended but just how are the two not similar (in application) when I compare elimination of the Jewish people/nation in order to achieve a master race and elimination of all Christians and other religious people in order to achieve an atheist utopia where we "wouldn't have nearly as much to fight about"?   I'm not claiming, as you say, that you or other atheist are Hitler but to condone the death or elimination of a group either because of their beliefs or their nationality IS THE SAME.  

YOU are the one who wrote that you can understand their reasoning, are you not?  Did you not?   If you can understand the reasoning in desiring elimination of a whole group of people account of what they believe then it's no far stretch to compare that mindset to that which promoted Hitler and what he was trying to achieve.  Can you understand Hitler's reasoning?  It's your words, not mine, so either own them or reject them but they say what they say and indicate you can "understand" their (atheist who would eliminate all Christians and religious people) reasoning.  I am only going by the context of the discussion.

That was the wrong answer for someone who is not like them because the right answer would have been to not understand it and condemn it.  Just look at what goes on here in the Religion forum and see just who it is that are attacked all the time and disparaged ... Who is it?  Christians or Atheist?  What reasons do Christians state they are here for verses what purpose are some or many atheist here for?  Many have said they are here to declare our beliefs BS.  They aren't here for any constructive reasons but destructive ones and some say/type they don't care what others think of it.  Great example of humanity.  

No comments of condemnation from other atheist of this activity but let BIll make a post and he's crucified for being judgmental or pronouncing that one day people will answer for their decisions.  Not only that but applications are made to the rest of the Christians in the forum or the majority of Christians are stereotyped thus.

See if you can understand this .... again.   I DON'T THINK ATHEIST are like Hitler UNLESS they desire to eliminate all Christians and religious people from earth and have their atheist utopia.  If that's is their desire, and as you know some want, desire, and crave, then YES they are as dangerous as and like Hitler in that they justify the elimination of a subset of people they either don't like or don't agree with.

If I'm wrong then show me and the other forum members where and how?   Just where do you actually stand Jennifer? 

b, the basic premise of your post is wrong.  There was no Moses, no Exodus, Israeli archeology has proven this.

Like almost all of the bible, his story was taken from earlier mythology, particularly the Babylonian mythology from the Jewish captivity therein.  You could look it up.

DF

That is incorrect.  Archeology has not done such.  Sodom and Gomorra was dismissed as fable but i a recent History/National Geographic program I saw where archeologist have found what they fully believe, with a high degree of accuracy, is Sodom.  The same for many other cities or locations.  If you don't want to believe it I'm sure you have your reasons however it's not genuine to make such statements that are incorrect in order to justify your disbelief.  Even if Archeology has not found something doesn't mean it didn't or does not exist anyone can realize that.   

Show you and other forum members? Now you really sound like bill. I did not mean or imply that they want to kill anyone.  I know they wouldn't. I said they would love to get rid of religion, because of all the wars, hate, misery, and turmoil it causes. Then you come right along and compare us to Hitler. If I said there are people that want to eliminate all discrimination and other problems that tear down society, which there are, do you take that to mean we want people killed? Christians love to brag about how the world embraced christianity even though they know full well it was forced on people. "The cross or the sword". And as I posted before, even missionaries know the "heathens" they claim to convert still practice their old religions. And it is fine with the missionaries as long as it's done undercover. But at the first whiff of the idea that others might feel the same about you, that it needs to be kept in private, all hell breaks loose.

No, I would not have been a follower of hitler, just as I wouldn't have been a follower of the "christians" that were slaughtering non-believers.

You've never seen an atheist, you just listen to all the BS put out on this forum.

Yes, that would make them happy for two reasons.

1. They would be there to see it really did exist. It would boggle their minds to finally realize that they could scientifically examine it.

2. All the 'Christians' they hate would be there too.

You are the one who said every one would go to Hell, not me. You judged the whole world and deemed it invalid.

Hi Deep,

Anyone can post making bold statements -- with no supporting proof.   Hey,  I can write that my Friend, Deep, is ten foot tall -- but, with no proof, it is just a lot of hot air.  And, without factual proof, so is your claim about Moses and the Exodus.   Many religious and secular writers verify these events, as well as the life of Jesus Christ.  So, where is YOUR proof that Moses did not exist?  Fact -- or hot air?

Of course, you will not respond.  You have taken the slippery way out -- claiming that you do not respond to me anymore.   Well, I suppose as many times as I have proven you wrong; you have good reason to avoid dialogues.   But, that still leaves your bold claim as just that -- an empty claim with no supporting facts.

But, hey, you have left the Missing Link floating for a long time -- why not Moses?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

My statement about showing/demonstrating to other forum members was made in response to your reply indicating total irrelevance of the statement about Hitler or ****s.  We can only go by the context of the topic or subject being discussed at the time and the original post I made I've quoted below, again, for clarification.  

GBRK wrote:  Frankly, as far as that is concerned, at times it appears that many atheist are not looking for common dialog or a dialog at all.  From appearances it seems as if many atheist will not be satisfied until the world is rid of all religious people and most prominent in their cross hairs are Christians.  I hate to put it that way and I'm not saying you fit that mold but I can assure you that there are many atheist that do and would not rest until all traces of Christianity is removed from Earth.  That is the impression that many atheist leave with many Christians so both can be considered intrusive as well for the impression that many atheist leave is they are not happy as long as any Christians are there.  In that respect I believe there are far more atheist who believe that way than there are Christians who feel likewise about atheist.

What do you think I was talking about?  Some slow attrition of Believers by natural causes?  I meant just what I said and indicated that I fully believe there are some Atheist who would feel it could be justified for the totally elimination ( as in death ) of all Christians and believers in order to get rid of Religion.  Radical ... of course but some people are, I believe, that hard core and irrational and obsessed.  The main issue I had with your statement is that you could understand their rationale.  What is the great distinction between being able to understand their reasons or rationale and accepting it yourself?  While there is a lot of difference in that you aren't saying you agree with it I suggest it was the wrong response all together.

The reason I said what I did about Atheist in the first place was that many admittingly are here for nefarious reasons and they don't care if anyone doesn't like it they are going to attempt to be pains to every believer.  When statements like that are made if there are Atheist who don't agree or disagree then they should be first to call their fellow atheist on it.  Have I not stepped in before and took another believer to issue when I felt they were being unjust to Christ Cause and not reflecting what I felt we Christians should be reflecting?  I have but seldom if ever do we see Atheist call out their other like members who do such as overt attempts to be disruptive and personally offensive to forum members who believe differently.   

You and others acknowledge this is an open, public, forum and you have a right to be here and to post.  I agree with that however with freedom comes responsibility, does it not?   What reasons do you think most atheists are here on the forum for?  What is your reason for being here?  My reason is that I am here to answer for my personal faith and belief and to answer questions regarding Christianity from those who are sincere and honest in asking  a question.  

Do you also consider Atheism a Religion?  What i said about Hitler was radical but it was about radical people who believe essentially the same as Hitler in that being that there is justification for elimination of a group of people.  Forget what the justification is but that they believe that there is some form of justification that exist at all.  

We are dealing with perceptions and all you have to do is view post from professing Christians and see the content of those, including Bill, and look at the non-believers and admitted atheist and see what content their post have.  Compare the bulk of them and then give me your honest opinion about just who is treating who unjustly or un-neighborly?

There has been statements about Christians, on the forum, making post that ooze hatred and I've requested the re-posting and citing of who is doing this, being hatred and oozing hatred so it can be addressed but that has yet to be answered.   

Hitler was a Roman Catholic.

Taking the bulk of post on the Religion forum, Semi, just who do you see attacking who the most?  Who makes the most disparaging  and personal insults about the other folks that do not believe as they do?   You do have Christians and religious people making post on the Religion form of a religious nature about religious things, myself being one, yet I'd love to see and have shown to me where a Christian has originated an overt attack against any non-believer or admitted Atheist on this forum?

You are here enough to know and see .. who is it that always is first to jump into a topic/subject and declare that the participants that post their opinion are delusional or insane, or unintelligent?  Who overwhelmingly is it?  

Of those on the forum that have at times either been judgmental or perceived as attacking another forum member how many times have you posted replies criticizing Atheist/non-believers verses how many times have you made negative post regarding Christians?  The question is are you being consistant yourself and being unbiased?  

I feel it a very valid statement to say that Christians, as a group, are attacked and insulted five times to one if not twenty times to one, if not EVERYTIME when compared to their atheist or non-believing counterparts. 

I do get it that you and others feel that Bill has inappropriately judged you but has he ever called you the names that myself and other Christians are routinely called by some atheist and other non-believers on the forum and not by mistake but in deliberate acts and attempts to disparage us because of our belief.  When that has happened have you ever posted a negative or critical post in response addressing the attacks on Christians and their intelligence?  

I read what B said to you in a reply and I didn't see any attempt to JUDGE or cast Judgment upon anyone.  B said "I Guess we'd all go" not that we all deserve to go or that you or anyone else deserves to go.  That would be judging, in my opinion.  Why do you feel that you were being judged by her?   How is what she said Judging as she never said she wished anyone to go to Hell or that anyone deserved to go to hell because?   If we are going to be honest in our post then lest all be honest and up front with our fellow forum members.  Be consistant also, is all I ask.

Lots of statements are made like this Jimi.   You said it so where is your proof?  What URL links and citations can you provide that backs up your blanket assertion?  Where is there evidence that Hitler sought out the blessing and approval of the Pope?  Something any true Catholic would have done.

Besides what if Hitler did say,at one point, he was Catholic or even a Christian which based upon the evidence the opposite is far more probable in that Hitler was more into the occult than Christianity from historical records and programs that I have heard.  So, also, what would be your purpose in saying he was Roman Catholic?

Nor would I!  For one I don't approve of it, I don't see justification in Scriptures for their actions nor can I understand or comprehend the potential reasons for what they did.  Although religious people are still doing some crazy things, such as Radical Muslims, acts by Christians are long ago and under tyrannical leaders who claimed Christianity or by other Church leaders who claimed justification by fabricating God's approval or fabricating justification for their acts.

Actually I would propose that more Christians were killed and slaughtered than non-believers but I can't prove that statement.

I've never seen an Atheist????? That statement would be funny if it wasn't so ridiculous & I'm not going to dignify it by answering.  You presume too much! 

I said: I suggest you read the Bible & see what His teachings are & what He considers "living humbly". None exist in the world today.

You said: So if none exist in the world, then I guess we all go to hell.

gbrk, are you saying I make the bulk of post in the Religion forum??? If this is true, then it's time for me to go.

As far as who I  see attacking who the most would be about even but I wouldn’t call it attacking, it’s more of a discussion, as far as I’m concerned, except for Bill. He’s the master of disparaging &  personal insults. Just because a discussion can get heated, doesn’t mean it’s an attack.

You want to see where a Christian has originated an overt attack against a non-believer or Atheist on this forum? I can’t believe you have to ask. There must be hundreds of them, mostly by Bill. Long before you came to be here, he used his stupid little cartoons to ridicule & call all of us names, Christian & non-Christian. We don’t see the cartoons now, which must be because of the new forum layout. If you want to see what I’m talking about, go back & look up some of his older post. You’ll see what I mean. Anyone here can tell you about his cartoons & how he has attacked us all.

I’ve seen Christians here accuse Atheist, non-believers & even other Christians, of being delusional, insane, or unintelligent. There was one just a few hours ago against Skippy.

I’m very consistent in making negative post. When someone tells me how stupid I am for not being a Christian or that I need to become one, it’s going to cause negativity on my part. I’m a grown woman & I don’t need anyone telling me how to live my life. If I want to become a Christian, I know all the steps. There’s two people on this forum that I believe to be Christian & that’s O No & vplee. Those two have never attacked me. They have come at me with a loving heart & kindness. I firmly believe a person gets back what they give. When you first came to this forum you came w/o attacks but that seems to be changing.

I strongly disagree that Christians are attacked & insulted five times to one if not twenty times to one. When a Christian is "attacked", as you call it, it’s usually because they are preaching & telling others how to live. They should get the beam out of their own eye before trying to take it out of someone else’s.

When have I said that I felt I was being judged by B? I thought she & I were having a civil discussion. The written word is sometimes hard to know how it’s to be taken but I haven’t seen where our discussion has gotten out of hand, as you imply.

I agree that we need to be honest in our post & up front with our fellow forum members, so can you tell me where I have lied? B is the one that said "I guess we all go to hell", even though she has accused me of saying it. Sometimes I come across much stronger than I mean to be. That's one of my many shortcomings.

My purpose in saying it was that it is true. I am not here to look up stuff for you.

Makes me laugh when people act like they can't even do a simple search.

Ohhhh I seeeeeee GB. You say more christians were killed for their belief, (you're wrong btw) so somehow that makes the slaughter of non-believers by them A-OK. Seems like it's you that could sit back and do nothing if someone started tossing atheists into the ovens. Heck, some of you would probably ask them if they had enough fuel for all of us. Atheists know what most christians think of them. And then you post utter nonsense like atheists would kill christians if they could. 

Semi, don't play their game. I've posted to you that guilt trips is one way they work. Then you have the ones that attempt to belittle or "talk down" to atheists. You know, they try to come across as kind and wise and you're just misguided, they just want to help you. They always show their true colors because they aren't kind and wise and can't keep up their charade for long.  When a post hits home to them, or they see you aren't buying it, their mask slips and you see them for what they really are. Then you have the more "honest" ones, they don't even pretend to be nice, they just flat out go on the attack and send your butt straight to their hell. And then there are the sincere believers that post without all the resentment against people different than them.

B-I missed your post about atheists wanting a hell, can't find it, but see it referred to in some of Semi's answers, so if I misunderstand that's why. But to plow ahead, firstly I don't believe in heaven or hell. No atheist does. Secondly, I don't know anyone that would wish for a hell, except for some christians of course. Thirdly, being an atheist doesn't mean you walk around hoping for eternal torture for people you don't like. There are some people I'd like to see "get a boot up their ass" but I'd have to draw the line at tossing anyone in a lake of fire just because I didn't like or agree  with them.  As valid as the argument is sometimes, I don't actually buy the "He needed killing" defense. Unless we're talking criminals.

So Semi, you hang in there. Post what you want to post-the way you want to post it. If some  people don't "get you" that's their problem not yours.

Oh Semi, check out the thread about "fine-tuning" of the universe, and note that they call the christian "outspoken" and the atheist "combative".  That's their mindset.

Have you noticed how B's Christianity is coming to light? Isn't it wonderful how Christian's can know non-believers & Atheist so well that they can say what we think, know, & feel?

LOL, nope, I'm not a Christian semi, you said so.

As for knowing you, yeah, i think i have figured you out. You are afraid of going to hell for some presumed sin that some wackball preacher told you in the past, therefore, you want to not believe so you listen to the atheists and try to forget God exists, but you can't. If you didn't believe you wouldn't spend so much time picking apart others statements.... As for non-believer, you are not, for that would be atheist. As gb said better than me, you have a warped notion of the Bible and have been told the wrong things in the past.

So for an outspoken and combative non_Christian, all i can say is stop believing the crap you have been told. Any sin can be forgiven. Any one can go to Heaven. God forgives more than we can imagine. Trying to live a life by constantly worrying about minute day to day things is not living.

Oh, and for my definition of a Christian, very simple, one who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I like simple.

Now, atheist and christian, continue with the judging contest.

I have a life to live.

Shalom.

B50m,

Did jesus joy send you over here from her heavenly forum to judge others?

I think you need to keep your tail over there.

You two snakes kicked me off over there and here you are over here spoisn’ to intergalactate Semi.

You have your work cut out over there on that flea bitten pack.

---------------------

Jeffrey Dahmer was a Church of Christ, he also wanter to be rebaptized in to the COC

while in prison, and he was rebaptized. What does that do to the COC? Nothing,

It's still the same good church as always.

And you're still the hate filled silly little boy as always. I wonder how many closets

doors you're hiding behind?

Iv

haha,

that has crossed my chitlin', mind.

Blind man you do realize your screen name chitlin’ is part of the azz. Are you trying to tell us something?

I spend far more time on here than I need already, I will admit to that.  As for checking out or doing simple research into what's said on the forum I possibly would consider that if what was said was from someone I considered credible and I was to comment on it.  Jimi has stated before he only cares to post, without reading anything a Christian has to say, so why would I give any credibility to his post in the first place?  Jimi, and others, make all kinds of statements and if a person makes a statement is it too much to request on what basis they make the statement?  If I went looking up everything Jimi has said or gave him a measure of credibility then I would discredit myself by those actions alone.

GB,

For someone who says they read most of the post on this forum you sure have missed a lot. There have been countless times that evidence and links have been provided showing that Hitler was indeed Roman Catholic. Not that it really matters much. It just always seems to strike a nerve in Christians when that is pointed out. I could care less if he were Muslim, Christian, or Wiccan. He was evil regardless. The fact is he himself claimed to be Catholic. It is well documented and easily found. I will make it easy for you since you seem to be in need of help with this one.

Here ya go.

fficial&client=firefox-a" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/search?q...amp;client=firefox-a#q=hitler+catholic&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=c3v&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&prmd=ivns&tbs=tl:1&tbo=u&ei=51MGTpWnBYHagQfCtcHSDQ&sa=X&oi=timeline_result&ct=more-results&resnum=16&ved=0CHsQ6AIwDw&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=27b93cf21cbb40b9&biw=1345&bih=538

Note that I am replying within the above quoted text and my replies appear in BLUE.

LOL, you are so pathetic you made up 13 names and emails to try to fake your way into that flea bitten pack, lying through your teeth every time. You got booted every time.

Notice I said for the rest of you atheists and christians to judge, not me, bub. That's all that happens in the religious forum. Every one judges some one else by their own standards which is pure BS.

You should know buff, since you reported Joy because she didn't toe the line the way you wanted.

COC hypocrite is all you are.

I told semi to stop believing crap and find the answers for herself, and not on some crappy forum.

If she took that as judgement, shoot me.

The only snake I have seen is the one with 13 names, buff/deano/redbone/ramm/kitty/ peter etc............

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Straightdope.com

A Staff Report from the Straight Dope Science Advisory Board 

Was Hitler a Christian?

Hitler did mention Christianity many times in his writings. He paid Christianity a lot of lip service in Mein Kampf, and he claimed to be a Christian. But Hitler's secretary, Martin Bormann, also declared that "National Socialism [****sm] and Christianity are irreconcilable" and Hitler didn't squawk too much about it. Similarly, Hermann Rauschning, a Hitler associate, said, "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both." In addition, Hitler declared ****sm the state religion and the Bible was replaced by Mein Kampfin the schools.

First, let's look at what he said that seems to put him on the anti-Christian side: 

According to a press release from Catholic League President, William A. Donohue (2/4/99): "Hitler was a neo-pagan terrorist whose conscience was not informed by Christianity, but by pseudo-scientific racist philosophies. Hitler hated the Catholic Church, made plans to kill the Pope, authorized the murder of thousands of priests and nuns, and did everything he could to suppress the influence of the Church. In 1933, Hitler said, 'It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity because there is in them a true religion rooted in nature and blood.'" 

Historian Paul Johnson wrote that Hitler hated Christianity with a passion, adding that shortly after assuming power in 1933, Hitler told Hermann Rauschnig that he intended "to stamp out Christianity root and branch." 

As Hitler grew in power, he made other anti-Christian statements. For example, he was quoted in Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, by Allan Bullock, as saying: "I'll make these ****ed parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews." 

( Hitler was baptized, but that was about the extent of it.)

.

You better get back over on the apostoletteJesus Joy’s forum. One of the men might say something vulgar and she will beat you to the draw inventing some reason she was their subject of interest instead of you.

It got so bad Jesus Joy’s old man had to secretly get a screen name and join. I didn’t have a clue from her love of naughty posts by the atheists candidates over there that she was even a wed woman. One of the names you accused me of might have been Mr. b trying to snake in.

She does look like liv tyler though.

Let's review:

[semiannualchick]     semiannualchick offline
Old Faithful
    June 22, 2011 at 10:47 AM
Following your best instincts, trying not to break any commandments, & trying to be good to others doesn’t make a Christian. I know many people that follow those same rules but they are by no means a Christian. I would love to hear what you believe a Christian to be.
BTW, I respect your humble opinion.


semiannualchick offline
Old Faithful
    June 23, 2011 at 11:57 PM
I believe a Christian is one who professes belief in Jesus as Christ, truly follows His teachings & lives humbly before Him. I know many people that say they believe in Jesus, & call themselves a Christian but they go no further than that.
James 1:26  says that “If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless”.

semiannualchick offline
Old Faithful
    Yesterday at 10:03 AM

I don't think there's anything I could say that would satisfy you. I've been preached to & ridiculed by some of the best that wear the hat. I suggest you read the Bible & see what His teachings are & what He considers "living humbly". None exist in the world today.



b50m offline
Old Faithful
    Yesterday at 11:52 AM
I wasn't asking to 'be satisfied', just what your thoughts were. So if none exist in the world, then I guess we all go to hell. At least that makes all the atheists happy.


[semiannualchick]     semiannualchick offline
Old Faithful
    Yesterday at 5:08 PM
Originally Posted by b50m:
'''''''''''So if none exist in the world, then I guess we all go to hell. At least that makes all the atheists happy.'''''''''''''

They don't believe in Hell, but why do you think that would make them happy? I've never seen an Atheist that would be that cruel.

You did ask my opinion of a Christian, I have always said I believe in more than one faith (look it up),

I was referring to myself as the outspoken and combative non-Christian, not you (in reference to Jenn's statement), you do believe in Hell or you wouldn't be worried about it, and if you want to claim agnostic you would be the:

Agnostic theism;The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.

My humble opinion of course.  Now since you are  happy, not confused and have all the answers, enjoy.

LOL, you really are a sick old man ain't ya? Want to explain the l e s b i a n lover you created for kitty kat? Or the pictures? Joy's husband did not secretly join, we all knew who he was, you just didn't.

You hate the fact that you can't get in so much it's eating you alive.  How dare a WOMAN refuse to do what the great rammlinn asks. Kiss my grits, you perv.

Go back to the biddies on the one you control.

Oh if I said I read most of the post on this forum I was sadly mistaken for I certainly attempt not to read most of the post.  I'll quickly admit I pass over most of the post so if I missed the one about Hitler here's why.  I don't care a bit for Hitler and I'm not Roman Catholic so had a post about either been posted I would not have read it.  Sorry but just not one of the areas of interest.  If though the post was within one of the other topics (and no I trust your link but didn't read it either but only because I believe you are telling me accurately).  As for the significance of Hitler being Catholic or Christian or if he claimed to be Southern Baptist it would not matter a bit for his actions would have discredited whatever he said he was with regard to Christianity but like with everyone else in here that's for God to determine and not man.  We can, from his actions and acts, guess that he wasn't a "born again Christian" but are we going to start going down the road where every person's acts are going to be laid at the feet of the people, party, or group they happen to associate with?

wul I never b50m.

honey i can get in there anytime i please. you need to keep your self-righeous self over there with liv tyler, dang that woman iz hawt.

No Dark A, It doesn't matter much.

.

Stalin was atheist. He was responsible for the deaths of millions.

Pol Pot. Same.

Mao. Same.

You are an atheist. They were atheist. Atheists, your "kind" are responsible for murdering millions.

Therefore, YOU are capable of murder.

Right?

Not that it really matters but just thought I would mention that your (very appropriate) post should have been directly to Jimi as he was the one who injected that Hitler was Roman Catholic, in a previous post under this topic.  DA could believe the same but I took his post as educating me as to the initial statement by Jimi since I requested Jimi reinforce his statement with some evidence. Your point about judging others based on actions of people within their "group" or sub-set is rite on though.  

LOL,  now why would you want to you old perv?  Your family life suck? Need something more in your life?  Sicko, just drop dead. You hate women, especially those that don't bow to their master. That COC crap again. Make sure you pray hard tomorrow for all the sins you've committed. I'm not self righteous, as has already been proven, I'm not a Christian.

You need to read my full post to B. She quoted you as saying that about me.

Here is her original post to me.

Originally Posted by b50m: Today at 11:31 am

As gb said better than me, you have a warped notion of the Bible and have been told the wrong things in the past. 

If you said that, I never read it & I usually read your post (unless they're to long).

I believe you when you say you didn't say it. B has a habit of putting words in people's mouth so I take her post as a grain of salt. If you have a problem with it, you should take it up with her.

Semi,  I had a problem with it because I thought you believed I had said it.  I wanted to clear that up and I can assure you I did not make that statement nor do I believe you have a warped notion of the Bible.  Truth be known I don't know what your views of the Bible are or have not ever heard them.

As long as you know I never said that about you I'm satisfied.  I don't think B50m was trying to put words in my mouth but when she reads this she can respond to what she was actually referring to as I'd really like to know also since it involved me and that particular statement as to what I said that caused that impression.  

If we never know at least YOU know or accept that I never said that about you.  Thanks for the reply.

A complete misunderstanding.  As I showed above in my review of the 'facts', many things have been misunderstood.

I was referring to GBRK'S paragraph:

 You almost make it sound like to be a Christian means you have to subject yourself to victorian era rigid conduct requirements.  That's more a denominational doctrine and not what Christ said or not what God said, in the scriptures. 

There are definitely Christians who are over judgmental and try to force people to live according to a rigid set of laws or rules they derive from the Law's as given in Exodus.

GB never used the word warped, that was my use, to simplify things. As for putting words in your mouth semi, no, I didn't do that.  If no one is a Chritian, then no one goes to heaven, so the only place left is Hell. Deduction.

But, this topic has gotten too ridiculous as it is. Started by an atheist to tick off the religious then leaving the rest to fight.

B, if there's no heaven (as atheists believe) why would there be a hell? And why the statement that christians going to a hell would make atheists happy? We've all heard a christian make the statement "Oh that one is going to hell", or "there's a special place in hell for that one" about someone they didn't like.  And they're perfectly satisfied and happy to think that the offending person will be roasting forever. Pity of it too, it could be something very slight that the person did to **** off the christian.

I explained that on the previous page.

Yes, that would make them happy for two reasons.

1. They would be there to see it really did exist. It would boggle their minds to finally realize that they could scientifically examine it.

2. All the 'Christians' they hate would be there too.

As for some one saying that person is going to hell, that just BS.  Only God decides that so all the fake Christians can make all the proclamations they want, it doesn't mean anything.What they don't realize is their making those proclamations puts them in a bad light with God. My 'proclamations' were in jest as I really do think that atheist would be amazed if it really did exist. I don't see Hell as the description that Dante had. But I guess I won't know until I die.

As Blood Sweat and Tears said:

I swear there ain't no heaven, but I pray there ain't no hell.

I wouldn't have any interest in studying it, and I don't think anyone would be sent there simply because I didn't like them. They'd have to be pretty rough customers IMO. True, the thought  of an OBL, or a BTK roasting in a hell is appealing but unfortunately the most we can hope is that the deaths of their ilk are painful, scary, and totally horrible. No just "going to sleep" for them. Far to often we don't even get that, because they may be total barbarians but we have to be gentle with them.

It's not a misunderstanding at all, I read it exactly as you wrote it. You didn't say GB never used the word warped or that it was your use of the word. You exact words were "As gb said better than me, you have a warped notion of the Bible and have been told the wrong things in the past". 

I didn't say you put words in my mouth, my statement was that you put words in people's mouth, just as you did GB's by saying he said something he didn't. You need to clarify yourself better than  you've been doing.

As far as Christians going to Hell, there will be millions of them thinking they are going to Heaven but they won't. The Bible speaks strongly against the "lukewarm" Christian & those that call themselves Christian just for show.

This topic has gotten ridiculous only in the fact that people have been misquoted. I haven't seen any fighting as you refer to it, except possibly between you & Rramm. The rest is what I would call a  discussion, though in some cases it could be referred to as a heated discussion.

It' not BS to say someone is going to Hell. You can see the truth in someone by the fruit they bear. If a person bears rotten fruit, they will not go to Heaven. That, my friend, is in the Bible.

Matthew 7:15-20 says: Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.  A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

You haven't retracted any of the things you claimed I lied about in my review. But, I GUESS you see what you want to see.

So I GUESS you are judging people by their fruit. What if you see things the wrong way?  Lot of that going on.

Since you seem to know all the ways to judge and are judging people, and you seem to know all the ways for a Christian to behave, then I GUESS you have all the answers. A GUESS, mind you, based on the evidence presented here.

So tell me, in your best Biblical knowledge, am I going to hell? Because if I am, I need to pack a few things.