Evolution?

quote:

Actually Jennifer the actual instructions, from God, are more to that very form. The scriptures were brought forth, unto man, mainly in Greek and Hebrew text and form because that is the language of those who, we believe, God gave the information to and they then transcribed it using their own language.

Still not buying it. Why such limited laws by an all knowing god? So god thought that in the year 2011 we would still own oxen and slaves? How about all that other "stuff"? Are women still supposed to be opressed and under their husbands thumbs? So it's ok for a parent to show their love for your god by sacrificing their children? Are you supposed to still be killing animals as a sacrifice? Why the change? Don't you believe the bible is the truth?

quote:

And again, I must agree with Triforce that your assumptions are just that, assumptions, correct? After all, every good scientist knows that our understanding of the universe is base upon an ever enlarging and slowly proofing out of a series of assumption, right?

Al,

Thanks for admitting you were wrong about the DNA thing. That admission is thoroughly respectable, and reflects a curious and honest mind. We could use some more of that around here.

Your quote above, however, is not accurate. Science is not a set of assumptions, it is a body of data from which theories arise. One may assume a hypothesis which will, or will not, stand to testing.

Astronomers do not assume that the Earth orbits the Sun, it's observable fact. Chemists do not assume that compounds are made of elements, it's demonstrable. Biologists do not assume the DNA map of living organisms, they can actually count the genetic similarities and locate genes that account for specific physiological developments.

Theoretical, better described as hypothetical, speculations such as abiogenesis and quantum cosmology, are always qualified as hypothetical. These speculations are not out of the blue, nor derived from ancient collections of mystical writings, but are educated guesses.

Evolution is a fact. The best hypotheses for abiogenesis and the Big Bang are speculations, and they say so. But speculation is an essential part of curiosity. Some are right, some are wrong, but all are necessary for the advancement of human knowledge.

Best for the new year!

nsns

quote:

Originally posted by Jennifer:

quote:

Actually Jennifer the actual instructions, from God, are more to that very form. The scriptures were brought forth, unto man, mainly in Greek and Hebrew text and form because that is the language of those who, we believe, God gave the information to and they then transcribed it using their own language.

Still not buying it. Why such limited laws by an all knowing god? So god thought that in the year 2011 we would still own oxen and slaves? How about all that other "stuff"? Are women still supposed to be opressed and under their husbands thumbs? So it's ok for a parent to show their love for your god by sacrificing their children? Are you supposed to still be killing animals as a sacrifice? Why the change? Don't you believe the bible is the truth?

Fair and reasonable assessment. The great difference in time and God's relation to man/woman is in Jesus Christ. Before Christ God related to man through His Words a brought to His people through priest who would then interpret and administer God's requirements to His people. After Jesus, by Jesus own instructions, as recorded in John, God's Holy Spirit is given unto the believer, all believers, and this Holy Spirit that God uses to minister and relate to each believer. No longer is God's wishes and will interpreted by a priest unto the believer but God deals with each person directly. Additionally, God reveals Himself through God's Word, the Bible and this is open ended not closed and restricted. Before Christ man/woman was under the law and the laws you refer to and bound and restricted by them. Today we do not find justification in obedience to the law and in Sacrifices for transgression of those laws, that we did. Today our justification is found in Faith in Christ and Christ is the only Sacrifice that is required as His sacrifice, Being God in Man's flesh, is the only Sacrifice required doing away with the need for annual sacrifices and priest going into the holy of holies and making prayers for our trespasses. Yes I do believe the Bible and likewise I believe God's Holy Spirit, given to each believer, reveals the truth through the Bible unto each believer. I also believe that Christ did away with the requirements of justification by obedience to the law and necessitating the sacrifices you are talking about. Within the Bible you also find historical recordings of the nation of Israel as well as instructions of running the government which was actually run by the Priest.

Babble.

gb, if god wanted to "minister to each believer" himself, of what use is the Bible? Never mind, don't answer.

I suppose there's no need for priests now, as well? Forget I asked.

Babble.


nsns

Hi NSNS:
OK, I’ll buy that, most of it at least. Science is indeed a body of ever expanding knowledge. However, to me at least, the more of science I know, the more I know that I don’t know! Every new fact in science overturns the quest for even further knowledge! That is why it is so exciting and fun.

At least that is how I see it.

Hi Bill:
Thanks for noticing. I was hoping you might comment.
I can see both sides Bill. I live the religion which Jesus taught. I love all mankind. To me there is no “us” and “them”. There is just “us”, the human race. The children of the Heavenly Father. All of us on this world, past present and future. I see the big picture Bill.

And yes, I do so enjoy the materialists here at the forum. I admit to paying less attention to the religionists, because, to me, they are not a challenge. They have found their path, Christianity, Mormonism, Buddhism, Islam, whatever. To me these are all acceptable roads to God.

The materialists, on the other hand, are really interesting. They seem, for the most part to be really intelligent and good people. I enjoy our banter, and I hope to impress upon them a more favorable light of the existence of religion in our lives. As to if they suddenly want to convert to “Al-ism”, of that I am not so much interested. If I can get across the concept that people can love God, follow the teachings of Jesus and still be honest and hardworking scientists, then to me, I have succeeded.

We are, all of us, on a long road to eventual spirit perfection. God is not hiding from us, as so many here have complained… we are just too spiritually immature to comprehend the reality which is God. Amazingly, this is the same message which Jesus taught his followers, and, as gbrk so correctly pointed out, a long time ago, they did not have the advantages which we now enjoy, and so much of his message has become confused and misinterpreted. But no worries! It will all sort itself out in time.

Al

quote:

the more of science I know, the more I know that I don’t know!

Welcome to the club.


nsns

quote:

Thanks for admitting you were wrong about the DNA thing. That admission is thoroughly respectable, and reflects a curious and honest mind. We could use some more of that around here.

slim, i would have sworn the dino thing was all about DNA, too. it took the mention of "collagen" to remind me that it was not. butm, yeah, a public admission of being wrong is certain;y a mark of good character.

anyway, Al, you are vindicated.

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If I can get across the concept that people can love God, follow the teachings of Jesus and still be honest and hardworking scientists, then to me, I have succeeded.

you succeeded before you started. we all know science and religion can exist in very bright minds. unfortunately, that appears not to be the case with most people here. you and vp and a select few are exceptions to the rule here.

Awesome!
I am a legend in my own mind...

NSNS said:

quote:

Babble.

gb, if god wanted to "minister to each believer" himself, of what use is the Bible? Never mind, don't answer.

Acknowledged.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Al,

You are with anyone who is anti-God, anti-Christian. So, what is new?

Some times you preach New Age; sometimes it is Cult Universalism -- and now atheism. Seems you have tried to cover all bases -- except true Christianity.

Al, my Friend, you really should try Jesus Christ, the real LIGHT.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

"True Christianity" is an oxymoron.

quote:

Originally posted by Jennifer:

quote:

Actually Jennifer the actual instructions, from God, are more to that very form. The scriptures were brought forth, unto man, mainly in Greek and Hebrew text and form because that is the language of those who, we believe, God gave the information to and they then transcribed it using their own language.

Still not buying it. Why such limited laws by an all knowing god? So god thought that in the year 2011 we would still own oxen and slaves? How about all that other "stuff"? Are women still supposed to be opressed and under their husbands thumbs? So it's ok for a parent to show their love for your god by sacrificing their children? Are you supposed to still be killing animals as a sacrifice? Why the change? Don't you believe the bible is the truth?

There are no "instructions from God" except in the imaginations of foolish people.

quote:

Originally posted by JimiHendrix:

quote:

Originally posted by Jennifer:

quote:

Actually Jennifer the actual instructions, from God, are more to that very form. The scriptures were brought forth, unto man, mainly in Greek and Hebrew text and form because that is the language of those who, we believe, God gave the information to and they then transcribed it using their own language.

Still not buying it. Why such limited laws by an all knowing god? So god thought that in the year 2011 we would still own oxen and slaves? How about all that other "stuff"? Are women still supposed to be opressed and under their husbands thumbs? So it's ok for a parent to show their love for your god by sacrificing their children? Are you supposed to still be killing animals as a sacrifice? Why the change? Don't you believe the bible is the truth?

There are no "instructions from God" except in the imaginations of foolish people.

So what qualifications gives you the patient on indisputable truth?

It's interesting how many people are not satisfied or confident in their own beliefs or opinions that they can rest upon them alone or simply the stating of their own opinions. Instead they find it necessary to demean and try and pass some form of judgment upon those who happen to disagree with them and hold some belief of something greater than themselves?


Speaking of "Instructions from God" ... There is something that has been around far longer than you or anyone alive on this forum and lets see what it says.

Psalm 53:1-2 (CEV) 1 Only a fool would say, "There is no God!" People like that are worthless! They are heartless and cruel and never do right . 2 From heaven God looks down to see if anyone is wise enough to search for him.



Foolish People ... And it's the very same people that criticize and cry about Christians or people of religion judging or condemning them.

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So what qualifications gives you the patient on indisputable truth?

It's interesting how many people are not satisfied or confident in their own beliefs or opinions that they can rest upon them alone or simply the stating of their own opinions. Instead they find it necessary to demean and try and pass some form of judgment upon those who happen to disagree with them and hold some belief of something greater than themselves?

Patent? Is that what you meant? Ok, first of all it is my opinion, and I am very confident in that. If you feel offering my opinion and asking you questions which you can't answer is demeaning to you, then I'd say it's you that isn't very confident in their belief. Christians pretend to want to know what an atheist thinks but once you give them your opinion or ask them a question they retreat to the bible. You don't even have the nerve to use your own words to try to insult me. You can shove your little bible passage "where the sun don't shine."

Yes Patent is what I meant to use but my spell checker or application apparently inserted the word I did not mean to use so you correctly caught that but the post, you last responded to, was not directed to you or at you yet your response indicates as if it was and you get all defensive as if I was attacking you. Read again and you will see my statement was directed at Jimi's response, not yours .

With regards to my comment about demeaning or what I was referring to was the statement where he ( Jimi and not you ) indicated that the only "instructions from God" were in the imaginations of foolish people. It was his categorization of all believers as "foolish people" that was demeaning. A definite opinionated statement but one which is derogatory and and demeaning of believers and a common tactic and practice of many atheist and non-believers who have a hatred of Christians because of our beliefs.

As for not being able to answer a question I recall no question that I was unable or not willing to answer, that was ask of me. On the contrary I posed questions throughout this forum, with regards to Evolution, that I consider have never sufficiently been answered to this point and none of them, contrary to your assertion, was religiously based (at least with regard to Evolution, the forum topic of this thread). If you are referring to comments regarding God's Laws or Commandments then yes I feel it appropriate to use Scripture to form my answer as it was a question regarding something contained within those Scriptures.

I challenge you to find, with regards to any of my comments, on Evolution and not the law or commands, and my statements as to why I do not believe Evolution, any place that my argument was from the Bible or any scripture references. I've made my objections to Evolution in the form of statements, with regard to Evolution itself and totally nonreligious in nature so I don't know if it is Evolution you are referring to or the comments about the Commands and Laws of God?

Again you state "You don't even have the nerve to use your own words to try to insult me. You can shove your little bible passage "where the sun don't shine."

The only Bible passage I cited was one from Psalms using the word Fool which was essentially what he was saying believers were. It was used to essentially to point out that long before any of us existed the term fool was used to refer to anyone who denies God. It was also with regard to Jimi's statement and not any post you made. I was not using Scripture to attempt to make any statement for myself. Scripture can speak for itself and I can speak for myself.

In addition to the above I challenge you to cite any post I have made on this forum where I have insulted you or anyone else because of their or your personal beliefs or opinions, as you seem to indicate I have. It was Jimi, who used the word foolish insinuating that believers were fools for believing in the Commandments of God, yet when I cite a reference to a long ago written Scripture text which made a general statement regarding people of that time you tried to turn it around into some attempt at a personal or specific attempt to insult you. I made no association nor was the reply even targeted at you.

Interesting how sensitive you, and many other atheist, are when nothing was directed at you and yet you have no problem at all with believers in general, believers in this forum are being directly alluded to as Foolish for happening to believe that God actually provided Commandments and Laws to abide by and live by. But then I suppose you might agree with Jimi's assessment on that?

With regards to the questions you mention. What questions is it that you are asking of me that I can't answer or haven't answered and yet feel is demeaning to me? When you say I have "retreated" to my Bible to attempt to answer something are you referring to Evolution, the topic of this thread?

Again my reply wasn't even directed to you yet you set off telling me to "shove your little bible passage". Again it is a Religion forum and a very appropriate place to cite or use a Bible passage. If seeing Bible references somehow bothers or offends you maybe you should consider the Miscellaneous, news, or politics forum where it might be inappropriate or unexpected to see quotes from the Bible.

With regards to attempts to insult you or anyone else, account of your beliefs. I haven't done that this time nor any place before. If you feel I have then please be specific as to what topic, thread, date and time of post.

quote:

Interesting how sensitive you, and many other atheist, are when nothing was directed at you and yet you have no problem at all with believers in general, believers in this forum are being directly alluded to as Foolish for happening to believe that God actually provided Commandments and Laws to abide by and live by. But then I suppose you might agree with Jimi's assessment on that?

With regards to the questions you mention. What questions is it that you are asking of me that I can't answer or haven't answered and yet feel is demeaning to me? When you say I have "retreated" to my Bible to attempt to answer something are you referring to Evolution, the topic of this thread?

Then stop including my posts in your answers.

TimesDaily.com Religion Forum
Talk about today's religion news, as well as your beliefs and practices here in our religion forum.

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See the part that says "as well as"?

Stop including your post in my answers? Funny that you did the very thing you ask me not to do in yours. I obliged, will you?

As for your answer appearing it did so not because I chose to copy your reply but because Jimi copied your response and when I copied his yours came along for the ride so I didn't copy your response. The confusion could have easily been avoided if you had of read properly though.


As for your post about the Religion Forum, true it does say as well as and that's not a problem. The problem, as I saw it, was that you seemed irritated that we were posting scripture and my point is that if there is any forum where Scripture is appropriate and expected it would be a Religious forum. If you were that offended by seeing it then my suggestion was you might want to choose another forum where it would not be as likely to appear. Maybe it's not an issue at all but it sure seemed you were upset by something.

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As for your post about the Religion Forum, true it does say as well as and that's not a problem. The problem, as I saw it, was that you seemed irritated that we were posting scripture and my point is that if there is any forum where Scripture is appropriate and expected it would be a Religious forum. If you were that offended by seeing it then my suggestion was you might want to choose another forum where it would not be as likely to appear. Maybe it's not an issue at all but it sure seemed you were upset by something.

To avoid confusion stop including MY posts when you are replying to others. Bible quotes don't offend me. You can post all the bible passages you want, I don't care, but when I ask for YOUR opinion and all I get are bible passages it shows me you have no answer or thoughts of your own. You never answered my question, you only retreated to the bible. I've read the bible, I wasn't interested in what was written in the bible, I ask what you thought. There are only few christians on this forum that will give their opinions. The rest of you just post bible quotes.